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"One of the other things that bothers me is that, in order to have fun in this game, I have to spend 90% of my time in greyspace. Don't get me wrong, my main and favourite character is a pirate, but I have alts in every other nation, alts which are rarely used due to the fact that I all they are good for is PvE. Unless I want to come down to grey and furball in b8/i8."
While I don't think this thread is intended to address the concern you raise here, I think it's nonetheless fundamental to the discussion.
Question for all: What makes this game fun? What would make the game more fun?
Unfortunately, Lecter, the only fun thing in the game for most at the moment is "SpaceQuake", which is probably due to the fact that the game started out as just that, and in the intervening decade or so has not fundamentally changed. I must admit that I do not have fun trading. I do not have fun grinding faction. I do not have fun botting. Bot piracy is somewhat fun but since the end result is just some field in my character database incrementing it's not particularly satisfying. PvP, either 1v1 or group oriented, is the only thing I, and I suspect many others, play the game for - everything else is just a barrier to entry and a practical obstacle preventing me from practicing to the skill level obtained by pilots who have practiced more before me. So long as this game remains twitch-based, and thus physical skill based, players will have to find a place play SpaceQuake in order to get better.
I don't see any reform that can alter that chain of events or even shift its location substantially. Fighting in Deneb was fun for a while, but dealing with random gankbots is annoying when you're trying to practice 1v1 or the skills necessary to beat players. And since the best pilots tend to also be pirates (and thus hang around in gray), any player who wants to get better must hang around gray in the hopes of learning from them, even if said learning consists of a thousand deaths.
That said, I actually agree that forcing players into hard choices is a good idea, if only to force combat ship diversity, and a fantastic idea if one takes an idealistic view of the game as an MMORPG. I just don't see what it does to make the game more fun though, and so I'm curious as to what your reasoning in that regard is.
While I don't think this thread is intended to address the concern you raise here, I think it's nonetheless fundamental to the discussion.
Question for all: What makes this game fun? What would make the game more fun?
Unfortunately, Lecter, the only fun thing in the game for most at the moment is "SpaceQuake", which is probably due to the fact that the game started out as just that, and in the intervening decade or so has not fundamentally changed. I must admit that I do not have fun trading. I do not have fun grinding faction. I do not have fun botting. Bot piracy is somewhat fun but since the end result is just some field in my character database incrementing it's not particularly satisfying. PvP, either 1v1 or group oriented, is the only thing I, and I suspect many others, play the game for - everything else is just a barrier to entry and a practical obstacle preventing me from practicing to the skill level obtained by pilots who have practiced more before me. So long as this game remains twitch-based, and thus physical skill based, players will have to find a place play SpaceQuake in order to get better.
I don't see any reform that can alter that chain of events or even shift its location substantially. Fighting in Deneb was fun for a while, but dealing with random gankbots is annoying when you're trying to practice 1v1 or the skills necessary to beat players. And since the best pilots tend to also be pirates (and thus hang around in gray), any player who wants to get better must hang around gray in the hopes of learning from them, even if said learning consists of a thousand deaths.
That said, I actually agree that forcing players into hard choices is a good idea, if only to force combat ship diversity, and a fantastic idea if one takes an idealistic view of the game as an MMORPG. I just don't see what it does to make the game more fun though, and so I'm curious as to what your reasoning in that regard is.
Diversity is fun, Starfisher.
And if you disagree with me, I'll call you a racist. So just don't go there.
The best pilots in this game tend to be pirates because all the action is in Grey. We also have other, largely unused, non-pirate characters. So, it's not like we're unable or unwilling to go provide action in far-away lands (not unlike strat's mother) if there's a reason to do so. Also, you do understand that there's lots of places in Deneb that don't involve gankbots, right?
Finally, this won't seriously impact PvP in Grey, for the many, many reasons already stated. What it will do is start moving the game away from pure SpaceQuake and provide some much-needed texture to its incredibly bland, boring, total lack of story/plot/conflict environment.
And if you disagree with me, I'll call you a racist. So just don't go there.
The best pilots in this game tend to be pirates because all the action is in Grey. We also have other, largely unused, non-pirate characters. So, it's not like we're unable or unwilling to go provide action in far-away lands (not unlike strat's mother) if there's a reason to do so. Also, you do understand that there's lots of places in Deneb that don't involve gankbots, right?
Finally, this won't seriously impact PvP in Grey, for the many, many reasons already stated. What it will do is start moving the game away from pure SpaceQuake and provide some much-needed texture to its incredibly bland, boring, total lack of story/plot/conflict environment.
"Also, you do understand that there's lots of places in Deneb that don't involve gankbots, right?"
No, I wasn't aware. I haven't been there for any substantial period of time since BP was introduced, whenever that was, because there are always better pilots to fight in gray and IIRC that was when the only mission was to fight gankbots. Which was boring once everyone got tired of it and went back to 1v1 in B8.
I agree that this will not seriously impact PvP, which was kind of the point - if it's not going to make any real change in the only fun part of the game, what practical effect on fun will it have? I was curious to see what you thought would be fun about the tri-KOS requirement, aside from the fact that many people would no longer fly Corvus specials. Racist though it may be, fighting all the people who used to fly Corv Vults in Rev Cs or Vult III/IVs doesn't seem like a particularly significant change. I'd actually support something even more radical if it would push people somewhere else - I just don't know what that could possibly be, given the requirement for individual practice.
I guess the point is that you're clearly passionate about the issue but I don't see your overall vision. Let's say this gets implemented. Game texturized in some small way. It's still fundamentally an FPS. What more needs to happen to pull it away from SpaceQuake into something fun or interesting on another level?
No, I wasn't aware. I haven't been there for any substantial period of time since BP was introduced, whenever that was, because there are always better pilots to fight in gray and IIRC that was when the only mission was to fight gankbots. Which was boring once everyone got tired of it and went back to 1v1 in B8.
I agree that this will not seriously impact PvP, which was kind of the point - if it's not going to make any real change in the only fun part of the game, what practical effect on fun will it have? I was curious to see what you thought would be fun about the tri-KOS requirement, aside from the fact that many people would no longer fly Corvus specials. Racist though it may be, fighting all the people who used to fly Corv Vults in Rev Cs or Vult III/IVs doesn't seem like a particularly significant change. I'd actually support something even more radical if it would push people somewhere else - I just don't know what that could possibly be, given the requirement for individual practice.
I guess the point is that you're clearly passionate about the issue but I don't see your overall vision. Let's say this gets implemented. Game texturized in some small way. It's still fundamentally an FPS. What more needs to happen to pull it away from SpaceQuake into something fun or interesting on another level?
I don't see your overall vision.
Try this. No more pirates in Valks and SCPs. No more traders using Greyhounds to zip around. No more anti-pirates in Corvus ships. No more fucking Serco in X-1s, and no more Goddamn smurfs flying proms.
You getting the overall vision yet?
Try this. No more pirates in Valks and SCPs. No more traders using Greyhounds to zip around. No more anti-pirates in Corvus ships. No more fucking Serco in X-1s, and no more Goddamn smurfs flying proms.
You getting the overall vision yet?
I get that you don't want people being able to acquire any random ship in the game. Great. I agree.
What I'm missing is the part where this change ties in with <something else> to change this away from SpaceQuake and into something more fun. Peytros is going to kill me regardless of whether or not he's in an X-1, and I'm going to try to find people to fight regardless of whether or not I can buy a CV without tri-KOS. We've established that this won't actually have much effect on PvP and thus player distributions. So: if the pragmatic effect of this change on core mechanics and actual gameplay is fairly trivial, what else do you have rattling around which would build off of it?
What I'm missing is the part where this change ties in with <something else> to change this away from SpaceQuake and into something more fun. Peytros is going to kill me regardless of whether or not he's in an X-1, and I'm going to try to find people to fight regardless of whether or not I can buy a CV without tri-KOS. We've established that this won't actually have much effect on PvP and thus player distributions. So: if the pragmatic effect of this change on core mechanics and actual gameplay is fairly trivial, what else do you have rattling around which would build off of it?
Wow. You really don't get anything about the difference between SpaceQuake and a RPG, or much at all about VO combat.
Either they'll implement it or they won't. But I'm not trying to explain this stuff to people with room temperature IQs any more. I'm done here.
Either they'll implement it or they won't. But I'm not trying to explain this stuff to people with room temperature IQs any more. I'm done here.
How about this: everyone starts out unaligned. The faction they choose will only manage where they start and how much standing they start out with. Neutral across the board, disliked with Corvus, disliked with Itani if they're Serco, disliked with Serco if they're Itani, (note that forces in the Deneb wormhole would shoot anyone who is even neutral or of lower standing with their nation) and respected with the nation they start out with. All factions cap at respected if they are not aligned with them, excluding subfactions. After training a pilot can choose to become a member of the nation they started out with in which case they would become KoS with Itani if they joined the Serco military or KoS with Serco is they joined the Itani military, but they would be able to work their faction up to Admired and above to get their ships, and for Itani/Serco Corvus faction will be capped at respected. If they join UIT they would be able to go past respected with UIT and get a +100 faction boost with all subfactions but Corvus faction would be capped at disliked and Serco/Itani will be capped at respected. These missions to join Itani/Serco/UIT would be permanent and a player would not be able to reverse their decisions.
Pilots would also have the option to remain unaligned, work up their Corvus license, and buy Corvus ships. However, the act of buying the first Corvus specialty ship will essentially be the pirate equivalent to joining a faction. UIT faction would be capped at disliked and Itani/Serco would be capped at neutral. There could also be other ships marked as black market material that would have this effect. This system kind of reminds me of EVN and seems a bit more realistic. Sound cool for the long term?
Pilots would also have the option to remain unaligned, work up their Corvus license, and buy Corvus ships. However, the act of buying the first Corvus specialty ship will essentially be the pirate equivalent to joining a faction. UIT faction would be capped at disliked and Itani/Serco would be capped at neutral. There could also be other ships marked as black market material that would have this effect. This system kind of reminds me of EVN and seems a bit more realistic. Sound cool for the long term?
"Wow. You really don't get anything about the difference between SpaceQuake and a RPG, or much at all about VO combat.
Either they'll implement it or they won't. But I'm not trying to explain this stuff to people with room temperature IQs any more. I'm done here."
*shrug*
Just trying to see where you're going with it. I've been playing SpaceQuake for a while, off and on, and so far every change made to the game has failed to make it play substantially differently than SpaceQuake. Your suggestion here doesn't look like it will do much to change anything either. Presumably it's part of some larger vision for the game, which I'd be interested in hearing, but apparently you're affronted that I dare to ask.
Either they'll implement it or they won't. But I'm not trying to explain this stuff to people with room temperature IQs any more. I'm done here."
*shrug*
Just trying to see where you're going with it. I've been playing SpaceQuake for a while, off and on, and so far every change made to the game has failed to make it play substantially differently than SpaceQuake. Your suggestion here doesn't look like it will do much to change anything either. Presumably it's part of some larger vision for the game, which I'd be interested in hearing, but apparently you're affronted that I dare to ask.
In reply to Shank's idea:
The general principle seems decent, a little like the X universe in fact. For the Corvus ships Id suggest something similar to a test pilot mission for access, rather then just buying a "black market" ship. Otherwise it looks like a decent faction option, however, perhaps lower some of the req's for equipment at places like XX, not to the level of the Corvus drop as there should be some incentive to becoming a pirate, but just a bit.
Perhaps this would encourage the devs to add some more nation/faction specific ships so theres really a POINT to choosing one faction over the other.
The general principle seems decent, a little like the X universe in fact. For the Corvus ships Id suggest something similar to a test pilot mission for access, rather then just buying a "black market" ship. Otherwise it looks like a decent faction option, however, perhaps lower some of the req's for equipment at places like XX, not to the level of the Corvus drop as there should be some incentive to becoming a pirate, but just a bit.
Perhaps this would encourage the devs to add some more nation/faction specific ships so theres really a POINT to choosing one faction over the other.
I think the easiest part of the Factions stuff mentioned here would be to implement the Itani v. Serco aspect (the 'gray' stuff is far too sticky). KOS with the other nation for valk/prom, and Hate for IBG/SVG. Since you get the IBG at something ridiculous like 2/2/, requiring KOS will greatly impact newbs who have killed ~50 collecters. Then again, that may be a good result, forcing newbs to be involved in serco/itani war. Just so long as it doesn't give a nebulous 'Specially Sanctioned Personnel Only'. It is really the dev's decision on how much they want to dictate people's roles.
EDIT: perhaps you can make an easy, universal formula for Itani/Serco standing
(Itani Standing) + (Serco Standing) = 0
EDIT: perhaps you can make an easy, universal formula for Itani/Serco standing
(Itani Standing) + (Serco Standing) = 0
I haven't read the rest of this thread, because it's too long. I think standing should be exclusionary, especially between nations. However, I think ships should be transferable between players and on the black market.
However...
I also believe that the current state of player wealth and position in the game makes any change to the established faction system horribly skewing against new players. We know a change is coming, so what do we do? Stockpile ships we know we won't be able to get anymore.
I think, should the devs ever actually make it to a faction redux, they should throw in a character reset.
However...
I also believe that the current state of player wealth and position in the game makes any change to the established faction system horribly skewing against new players. We know a change is coming, so what do we do? Stockpile ships we know we won't be able to get anymore.
I think, should the devs ever actually make it to a faction redux, they should throw in a character reset.
There are some unique items that I would be terribly sorry to lose.
I suspect most of tgft and quite a few other players would quit permanently if the devs did a reset. I'd miss my unique items too, but I'd miss those players a lot less.
Lots of us don't want to grind again (even if our chars aren't that awesome). player resets wont happen. that's what the station storage limits are supposed to help accomplish.
if anything, storage space should just cost a hell of a lot more. but we're getting way off topic here.
if anything, storage space should just cost a hell of a lot more. but we're getting way off topic here.
I don't have anything wrong with a reset. It's not like this is WoW or something where people spend a quarter of their lives to get legendary crap. And credits are worthless right now, I think people would actually welcome a working currency system for gameplay reasons (let alone the people with Smaug the dragon mentalities that just like to sit on big number, VO "Smaug the Terrible" excluded from that minority of course).
There are only a couple big problems with a reset:
1) uninformed newbies who get reset
2) we need to get it right the very first time
There are only a couple big problems with a reset:
1) uninformed newbies who get reset
2) we need to get it right the very first time
I would hope that when a reset happened it would mean the game had reached the point of having enough content available that leveling again would be new to everyone and there would be enough content available that it didn't feel like a grind.
Why not a reset as a real world nation would do to curb inflation? In a nation where the currency has gotten to such a low value that its just silly (Zimbabwe) the solution is often to mint completely new currency... In VO one new credit would be worth what say, 1000 old credits were, the amount of money in someones account changes, but the buying power doesnt. As far as faction a faction reset would be mildly annoying but definately do-able. Inventory? as is suggested in other threads, lower the amount you can store for free, and stockpiling will be mitigated. Theres really no need to reset levels.
Well I for one have spent a lot of time building my character - I certainly would not enjoy having me erased.
The only way they could do a reset would be to remove all material items including ships, weapons and drops along with all the credits. I dont think Guild would risk it.
The only way they could do a reset would be to remove all material items including ships, weapons and drops along with all the credits. I dont think Guild would risk it.
Why are we discussing resets again? To get rid of a perceived skewed cash distribution, or to pre-empt faction system changes?
If it's the former, wrong thread. If it's the latter... the easy solution is for Guild to force-sell all the equipment that a character can no longer access. Kills the advantage long-term players might have gained without seriously harming anything. Of course, the ships would have to be de-armed first to avoid losing any special equipment.
If it's the former, wrong thread. If it's the latter... the easy solution is for Guild to force-sell all the equipment that a character can no longer access. Kills the advantage long-term players might have gained without seriously harming anything. Of course, the ships would have to be de-armed first to avoid losing any special equipment.
Except the money is still there...