Offering Serco and Itani ships on the black market should definitely be possible, but it should also cause a steep standing loss.

Yes, but only if a nation notices you have it like for instance, if you take it into that nations monitored space or a convoy see's you etc. If you pick up a black market ship in unmonitored space I don't see how that could directly cause a faction loss.

Bump for red-text comment on feasiblity of OP.

It's probably damned feasible. But it shouldn't be implemented as-is without at least some way to purchase black-market ships (be that some established system or P2P selling).

it shouldn't be implemented as-is without at least some way to purchase black-market ships

So you say, because nobody should have to ever make a choice that has consequences w/r/t access to special ships. Which, like so many things you claim, is fucking retarded.

This is not supposed to be SpaceQuake, and if you home in Sedina having to (A) fly a Vult IV, (B) become tri-KOS, or (C) move IBGs/SGVs down is an absolutly great choice to have to make. It will make Greyspace combat more meaningful and interesting, and will encourage Deneb as an actual PvP war zone: the one spot where you can fight and home with your special ships.

The main hurdles this suggestion faces is 6+ years of an ingrained sense of entitlement.

Aticephyr, while I think the black market ship/equipment idea is definitely something that should be implemented, I don't think it necessary to do so before something like this. In fact, I think doing so after would lead to a more exciting implementation.

As to the Tri-KOS idea, the more I think about it, the more I think it might be a bit too extreme, considering that the other factions don't have to take such a hit.

What if instead, it was simply KOS with either UIT or the characters own nation (not sure which one would work best, UIT being more relevant from an RP position), and then simply less than admired with the other two? It's still a bigger disability than the others, but solves the issue of 'rats having the ability to access any ship they want.

The main hurdles this suggestion faces is 6+ years of ingrained sense of entitlement.

Ding ding ding.

And I could be persuaded to see bi-nation KOS (with one of those being your home nation) plus less than Admire with the third nation as a viable compromise between "pirates can choose what nation to be KOS with!" and "Gee, you can't even dock in two systems worth of subfaction stations."

The only issue is how do you determine which two need to be KOS? If you're Itani or Serco it is easy enough, UIT KOS and your own Nation, but what if you're UIT? Which one, Serco or Itani? And I can't imagine that the mechanic to sort that out would be all that easy to implement.

I think one nation KOS (either your own, or UIT, not a choice left up to the user, but a choice made when implementing this), combined with two below admire would achieve the same end result.

I'm still not keen on the idea but if were to be implemented I'd rather see tri-KOS as then all unaligned pilots would be equal. I suppose some people would see this as a reason for bi-KOS, though.

Not to beleaguer the point, but I don't get the reasoning behind bi-KOS. I get tri-KOS (although I think it's extreme), but if equality is what you're after, make the KOS nation UIT. I may be missing some glaringly obvious reason for bi-KOS, but as it stands it seems like an unnecessarily complicated compromise.

And on that point, I don't think that a bit of diversity amongst "unaligned" players would necessarily be a bad thing; if by "equality" you were referring to the fact that players would all be locked out of the same stations, instead of have access to equipment from varying stations, dependent upon your nation (if the one KOS nation was required to be your own).

Considering that the drawbacks to being unaligned are somewhat greater than being aligned, then having access to a slightly more varied range of stations might balance the issue a bit.

I'm mainly trying to present a solution that would garner support from the whiny, 'this is just PiratesOnline' crowd - who would never agree with the (entirely true) statement that the drawbacks to being unaligned are somewhat greater than being aligned.

I initially proposed just native KOS, which I think represents the most attractive RP and game mechanic way of declaring oneself "criminal." Until the faction redux, it ensures that a pirate can prey on anyone, anywhere.

I don't think UIT would be the ideal KOS to pick for two reasons. First, of the three nations, they're the most "porous" when it comes to their borders: they have subfactions inside and are the least nation-like overall. Second, from a gameplay perspective, they're closest to Grey and carry the most pirate-like gear - i.e., the least military focused. If a pirate was going to be integrated into any nation, from either an RP or a game mechanics perspective, it would be UIT.

So maybe the right answer is that you have to be KOS with Serco and Itani for Corvus special ship access, and also be native KOS. Hard cheese for UIT pirates, though, so maybe just go with KOS Serco and Itani.

"So maybe the right answer is that you have to be KOS with Serco and Itani for Corvus special ship access, and also be native KOS. Hard cheese for UIT pirates,"

I'm fine with that.

I'm fine with it.

Aticephyr, while I think the black market ship/equipment idea is definitely something that should be implemented, I don't think it necessary to do so before something like this. In fact, I think doing so after would lead to a more exciting implementation.
While I see your point, I beg to differ. The whole point of this thread is that requirements to buy these faction ships are the low-hanging fruit regarding the faction system redux. My point is that they are in fact not, as there are other (and black-market selling is just one example) things which should be implemented or worked around prior to some version of the OP going into effect.

The OP would hinder PvP in grey (possibly even limiting grey travel) and annoy long-time users. It wouldn't even add much to the game except add a small RP element which will probably be modified drastically once the real faction redux comes around. In other words, we would lose a lot, and we would gain little...

So you say, because nobody should have to ever make a choice that has consequences w/r/t access to special ships. Which, like so many things you claim, is fucking retarded.
If you're going to be snide, at least read the post you're responding to. I did not say that pilots should not have to make choices. In fact, I believe that good RP dictates otherwise. What I am saying is that there are some things which should be done prior to changing purchase requirements, and that implementing the OP as is would be, to be polite, less than brilliant.

I'm a little unclear on how you're concerned about any potential impact on "PvP in Grey," Atice. After all, even a steady stream of ni-cad powered, devlon equipped SCPs wouldn't be enough to make you a competent combat pilot. Maybe you should leave the combat concerns to those who know their roll controls from their reverse thrust button.

But let's examine this "hinder[ing]" of which you speak. Latos houses TPG mauds and Orion Rev Cs. So, you cannot seriously be arguing that placing faction limits on CVs, Hounds (which is not a PvP ship anyway), and CorMauds will have any serious effect on PvP. Unless you are, to adopt your faux-polite tone, less than brilliant.

As for your whining about this "limiting Grey travel," I've yet to see anyone argue with my point that maybe giving Serco and Itani a good reason to PvP in Deneb - you know, that place the Devs have been expending huge gobs of their time building up combat content - would be anything but fantastic. If this cuts back on Sedina B-8 being the ideal furball spot, that cuts towards implementation, not against it. And somehow, I don't see Corvus combat ship availability having any impact on the use of Grey by traders.

Have anything else, or is your poorly informed, unsupported, and overblow opinion that we would lose a lot, and we would gain little supposed to carry some sort of weight all by itself, sweetie?

Not everyone in grey is a superb combat pilot. Limiting the corvult's availability will limit choices for PvP ships in grey (you can't possibly argue that point), which I believe will decrease the number of people willing to PvP. The Corvult has in recent memory been the first competent PvP ship that new players have access to in greyspace, and you damn well know this fact. Players work their Corvus standing first as to get ships/equipment beyond their license level. TPG and Orion come much later for most players. As such, newer players will be even more out-gunned in grey than they already are (this means fewer targets for you, my dear). And for a tangential note: the cormaud is by far the best tri-small-gun ship in the area. Restricting access to it does affect PvP.

I'm not arguing with your point about sending more people to Deneb. That puts +1 in the "gain" category. Great. That +1 doesn't even consider the fact that Deneb is something of a testing ground for combat content which will find its way into greyspace sooner rather than later.

So what else does this idea of yours add, Lecter? Certainly it doesn't provide a solution which will work seamlessly with the eventual faction redux.

On a separate note: cut the personal attacks. They are irrelevant, unproductive, and childish.

One of the biggest detriments to this game, for me, is the homogeneous nature of the populace. There is little to differentiate each Nation aside from the colour of names in chat/sector list. For me this is a huge problem, always has been.

The fact that 2/3rds of players will lose access to one true pvp ship, in light of the fact that there are still other options (gaining access to the Rev C is only slightly more labourious than that of the CV), for me personally doesn't tip the scales in favour of maintaining the status quo.

One of the other things that bothers me is that, in order to have fun in this game, I have to spend 90% of my time in greyspace. Don't get me wrong, my main and favourite character is a pirate, but I have alts in every other nation, alts which are rarely used due to the fact that I all they are good for is PvE. Unless I want to come down to grey and furball in b8/i8.

Certainly it doesn't provide a solution which will work seamlessly with the eventual faction redux.

I have no idea when that redux will occur, but I bet it won't even be Soon(tm). Regardless, implementing this would (hopefully) take very little time and would likewise not make implementing the faction redux any harder.

The only question is whether this is better than the status quo. So far, there's 4 pages of me and others explaining why it is a lot better; your argument about players losing access is pathetic, and the only negative I've seen thus far. At this point, I don't see myself as the side with the burden of persuasion.

In addition to being pathetic, it's flawed. Nobody is "losing access" - they're being given a choice regarding to what ships they want to have access.

In any event, I think it's time for Dev comment.

+1 for a dev response.

Choices are good, man.

"+1 for a dev response."

oh christ, just impliment it already, if it sucks they can always change it back