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even if it's not ZZakZZok the second point still stands. If people want to be all confusing having different account names to in-game ones then they run the risk of being confused with others.. dammit!
So let me get this straight: It's okay for pirates to RP villains, but it is not okay for VPR to RP heroes?
Pizzasgood, Duh. How else are double standards supposed to work?
I've got no problem with the VPR's roleplaying heroes. But seriously, no one else minds that "I can see pirates as real life bullies"-comment? As someone who has nothing but pity and contempt for bullies in real life, that comment really bothers me.
And I don't really roleplay a villain, just a rogue.
And I don't really roleplay a villain, just a rogue.
A bully is a bully be it real life or the net....
If your conscience bothers you.....
If your conscience bothers you.....
I don't see what I've done to bully. Have I blown up ships? Sure, as part of a competitive game that encourages it. That's not bullying.
So let me get this straight: It's okay for pirates to RP villains, but it is not okay for VPR to RP heroes?
Way to put words in my mouth, Rin. I was reacting to this other crap about pirate players being bullies IRL and all of the sudden I'm telling people that it's not okay to roleplay. I'm extremely dissapointed.
They can roleplay however they like, just like us, except their system has 0 legitimacy (just like ours, but we're the ones roleplaying illegitimacy), and I'm simply pointing out that people are wrong to trust the VPR's opinion of who are actually dangerous or worth banding together to kill arbitrarily. There is inbuilt injustice in the system that could easily result in them bullying people who are just honestly trying to have fun. I even offered them a way to gain some legitimacy in the community that offers some interesting role play/politics.
And you give me this one line, word-twisting summary. Dissapointment. I expected far better from you.
Shape: Yes it bothers me but honestly I've had that every single day in vendetta. You get it professionally too that's why people hate lawyers because they don't seem to get it through their thick heads that it's possible (for some of us) to argue or take on positions that we don't personally agree with (advocacy). People give you shit day-in-day-out until you actually take their side for once, then they seem to realise that perhaps you aren't so bad. Some of them do anyway, most of them just revert to being ass-hats but you take what you can get.
Way to put words in my mouth, Rin. I was reacting to this other crap about pirate players being bullies IRL and all of the sudden I'm telling people that it's not okay to roleplay. I'm extremely dissapointed.
They can roleplay however they like, just like us, except their system has 0 legitimacy (just like ours, but we're the ones roleplaying illegitimacy), and I'm simply pointing out that people are wrong to trust the VPR's opinion of who are actually dangerous or worth banding together to kill arbitrarily. There is inbuilt injustice in the system that could easily result in them bullying people who are just honestly trying to have fun. I even offered them a way to gain some legitimacy in the community that offers some interesting role play/politics.
And you give me this one line, word-twisting summary. Dissapointment. I expected far better from you.
Shape: Yes it bothers me but honestly I've had that every single day in vendetta. You get it professionally too that's why people hate lawyers because they don't seem to get it through their thick heads that it's possible (for some of us) to argue or take on positions that we don't personally agree with (advocacy). People give you shit day-in-day-out until you actually take their side for once, then they seem to realise that perhaps you aren't so bad. Some of them do anyway, most of them just revert to being ass-hats but you take what you can get.
Well, I wasn't just referring to that one instance. It's kind of the whole vibe I've gotten out of your VPR arguments.
Yes, zak's bully comment is a little annoying. I wasn't going to say anything since Shape already covered that, and I also attributed it to obsessive pointing out of tidbits (something I am also guilty of often). He wasn't saying that all pirates are bullies, but rather that bullies are more likely to play as pirates.
That only applies to the violent sort of bully, however. The manipulative sort who likes to use words and emotions to try to make other people feel small has no such preference. In fact, they might be drawn to "legit" guilds and occupations, to use as masks to hide their bulliness.
Piracy is a legitimate way to play the game PaK, so get over it.
Yes, zak's bully comment is a little annoying. I wasn't going to say anything since Shape already covered that, and I also attributed it to obsessive pointing out of tidbits (something I am also guilty of often). He wasn't saying that all pirates are bullies, but rather that bullies are more likely to play as pirates.
That only applies to the violent sort of bully, however. The manipulative sort who likes to use words and emotions to try to make other people feel small has no such preference. In fact, they might be drawn to "legit" guilds and occupations, to use as masks to hide their bulliness.
Piracy is a legitimate way to play the game PaK, so get over it.
No I don't mean to say that the VPR can't continue operating as it does, but that's far removed from what they advertise it to be.
They can roleplay heroes, but they're gonna get treated like vigilantes by most people which is what happens in real life when people take the law into their own hands (or are percieved to be doing so, regardless of actual existence of law). If they actually instituted a system of fairness (a real one, not one that is inherently corrupt) not only would it be more interesting socio-political roleplay, but it would solve many of the guild's problems in my view.
They can roleplay heroes, but they're gonna get treated like vigilantes by most people which is what happens in real life when people take the law into their own hands (or are percieved to be doing so, regardless of actual existence of law). If they actually instituted a system of fairness (a real one, not one that is inherently corrupt) not only would it be more interesting socio-political roleplay, but it would solve many of the guild's problems in my view.
Animosity between pirate and anti-pirate groups is expected; arguably, it's even encouraged. However, as far as I can tell, in this case the Vipers are taking offense to their traditional pirate foes being dicks about their rivalry even when out of game and nominally out of character.
There has been much accusation that the Vipers are 'mere vigilantes', with no legitimate authority. I am compelled to counter that any anti-pirate is constrained by the framework they are permitted to work with within the game. The Vipers answer to no higher authority because no higher authority exists to answer to. The in-game NPC factions are simply not sophisticated enough to be proactive or make judgment calls; they are bound only by arbitrary faction standing values which are relatively easy to manipulate. Ultimately, if piracy is viewed as a wrong, then responsibility falls to the players to self-police.
The Vipers' authority is not derived from any of the in-game factions (which amount to little more than a highly ambulatory part of the background), but from the consent of the players they are protecting. Players will naturally want to protect their private property, and in absence of a non-player entity to do so for them, they will inevitably attempt to do do themselves. The lawlessness of Greyspace is not an absolute, it is a vacuum, and as nature abhors a vacuum, anti-pirates such as the Vipers have inevitably arisen to fill the void. For better or worse, they are the law in Greyspace. They are not, by definition, vigilantes because there are no legal procedures there for them to preempt by taking action; in the absence of judicial precedent, they get to set it.
The thing to remember is, pirate and anti-pirate are both legitimate play-styles within the framework of the game. However, while we are afforded the ability to rob other players, they're likely going to be pretty upset about it, and some of them will be proactive about preventing it from happening to them again – or to others. So long as men covet the possessions of others, there will always be thieves, and so long as there are thieves, there will be those who take up arms to defend themselves and their fellows from them. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.
There has been much accusation that the Vipers are 'mere vigilantes', with no legitimate authority. I am compelled to counter that any anti-pirate is constrained by the framework they are permitted to work with within the game. The Vipers answer to no higher authority because no higher authority exists to answer to. The in-game NPC factions are simply not sophisticated enough to be proactive or make judgment calls; they are bound only by arbitrary faction standing values which are relatively easy to manipulate. Ultimately, if piracy is viewed as a wrong, then responsibility falls to the players to self-police.
The Vipers' authority is not derived from any of the in-game factions (which amount to little more than a highly ambulatory part of the background), but from the consent of the players they are protecting. Players will naturally want to protect their private property, and in absence of a non-player entity to do so for them, they will inevitably attempt to do do themselves. The lawlessness of Greyspace is not an absolute, it is a vacuum, and as nature abhors a vacuum, anti-pirates such as the Vipers have inevitably arisen to fill the void. For better or worse, they are the law in Greyspace. They are not, by definition, vigilantes because there are no legal procedures there for them to preempt by taking action; in the absence of judicial precedent, they get to set it.
The thing to remember is, pirate and anti-pirate are both legitimate play-styles within the framework of the game. However, while we are afforded the ability to rob other players, they're likely going to be pretty upset about it, and some of them will be proactive about preventing it from happening to them again – or to others. So long as men covet the possessions of others, there will always be thieves, and so long as there are thieves, there will be those who take up arms to defend themselves and their fellows from them. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.
The Vipers' authority is not derived from any of the in-game factions (which amount to little more than a highly ambulatory part of the background), but from the consent of the players they are protecting.
Right, but if they really do derive authority from consent that implies that the community has had some say, or should have some say, in how they conduct themselves. That is not the case, they are run by hidden rules which only they know about. The system is completely closed off to outsiders, especially the ones who are aggrieved by their decisions.
An organisation that is supposed to be entirely about justice doesn't afford the basic principles of natural justice or procedural fairness that it purports to stand behind as justification to hunt people. They receive community support and backing to hunt down people and everybody just trusts that because Viper is shooting at them they *must* deserve it.
The net effect in my view is that instead of helping the game, we are weakening our claim as a good community by standing idly by letting a group of players who claim to be about justice regularly and notoriously practice injustice and unfairness.
Don't tell me there isn't a simple solution, every other in-game organisation has a forum, Viper has a website, all they need to do is setup a forum, give a member from every guild in the verse access, and allow them a vote on matters which pertain to Viper targets. It is not too much to ask that they do this, and despite RedScar's dismissal I believe it would being additional gameplay value, rather than detract from it.
Right, but if they really do derive authority from consent that implies that the community has had some say, or should have some say, in how they conduct themselves. That is not the case, they are run by hidden rules which only they know about. The system is completely closed off to outsiders, especially the ones who are aggrieved by their decisions.
An organisation that is supposed to be entirely about justice doesn't afford the basic principles of natural justice or procedural fairness that it purports to stand behind as justification to hunt people. They receive community support and backing to hunt down people and everybody just trusts that because Viper is shooting at them they *must* deserve it.
The net effect in my view is that instead of helping the game, we are weakening our claim as a good community by standing idly by letting a group of players who claim to be about justice regularly and notoriously practice injustice and unfairness.
Don't tell me there isn't a simple solution, every other in-game organisation has a forum, Viper has a website, all they need to do is setup a forum, give a member from every guild in the verse access, and allow them a vote on matters which pertain to Viper targets. It is not too much to ask that they do this, and despite RedScar's dismissal I believe it would being additional gameplay value, rather than detract from it.
The net effect in my view is that instead of helping the game, we are weakening our claim as a good community by standing idly by letting a group of players who claim to be about justice regularly and notoriously practice injustice and unfairness.
And plundering and extortion are somehow just and fair? Don't get me wrong, piracy is a perfectly legitimate style of play, but you have an incredible amount of gall to accuse anti-pirates of 'harming the community' when the play-style of the pirates they're hunting fundamentally requires preying on other players.
Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
Don't tell me there isn't a simple solution, every other in-game organization has a forum, Viper has a website, all they need to do is setup a forum, give a member from every guild in the verse access, and allow them a vote on matters which pertain to Viper targets. It is not too much to ask that they do this, and despite RedScar's dismissal I believe it would being additional gameplay value, rather than detract from it.
That isn't gameplay, that's out-of-game roleplaying. It's disingenuous to assert that they are the same.
I also think that its completely unnecessary. Players who pirate other players or join openly pirate guilds are very easy to identify; they tend to openly advertise what they're doing, after all. There is no need for some byzantine public voting scheme. If anything, it could make matters worse. Knowing the penchant that certain prominent pirates have for trolling and alts, it wouldn't be long before someone tries to vote an innocent player onto the KOS list using sockpuppets. They could confirm each of the reports on a case-by-case basis, but that would take a great deal of time that would distract from actually playing the game. The Vipers joined their guild to hunt pirates, not to play at being bureaucrats.
It bears considering that the only realistically enforceable punishment in VO is the destruction of a player's ship, and death in VO is very, very cheap. Law & order in VO is both a straight-forward and fairly trivial affair, and one that exists primarily to perpetuate the conflict between two major groups of players: pirates, and those who oppose pirates. A needlessly complicated legal apparatus would only impede that conflict, and since that conflict is a driving force of gameplay, anything that impedes that conflict would ultimately detract from that gameplay. QED. You could argue that the added out-of-game roleplaying compensates for that, but the fact is that not everyone is interested in that sort of thing.
Anyway, there is little concern about the Vipers abusing their authority. Due to the way the game works, if they started targeting non-pirate players word of it would get out, they'd be ostracized by the community, and hunted down themselves. They can no more hide the nature of their activities than the pirates can.
And plundering and extortion are somehow just and fair? Don't get me wrong, piracy is a perfectly legitimate style of play, but you have an incredible amount of gall to accuse anti-pirates of 'harming the community' when the play-style of the pirates they're hunting fundamentally requires preying on other players.
Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
Don't tell me there isn't a simple solution, every other in-game organization has a forum, Viper has a website, all they need to do is setup a forum, give a member from every guild in the verse access, and allow them a vote on matters which pertain to Viper targets. It is not too much to ask that they do this, and despite RedScar's dismissal I believe it would being additional gameplay value, rather than detract from it.
That isn't gameplay, that's out-of-game roleplaying. It's disingenuous to assert that they are the same.
I also think that its completely unnecessary. Players who pirate other players or join openly pirate guilds are very easy to identify; they tend to openly advertise what they're doing, after all. There is no need for some byzantine public voting scheme. If anything, it could make matters worse. Knowing the penchant that certain prominent pirates have for trolling and alts, it wouldn't be long before someone tries to vote an innocent player onto the KOS list using sockpuppets. They could confirm each of the reports on a case-by-case basis, but that would take a great deal of time that would distract from actually playing the game. The Vipers joined their guild to hunt pirates, not to play at being bureaucrats.
It bears considering that the only realistically enforceable punishment in VO is the destruction of a player's ship, and death in VO is very, very cheap. Law & order in VO is both a straight-forward and fairly trivial affair, and one that exists primarily to perpetuate the conflict between two major groups of players: pirates, and those who oppose pirates. A needlessly complicated legal apparatus would only impede that conflict, and since that conflict is a driving force of gameplay, anything that impedes that conflict would ultimately detract from that gameplay. QED. You could argue that the added out-of-game roleplaying compensates for that, but the fact is that not everyone is interested in that sort of thing.
Anyway, there is little concern about the Vipers abusing their authority. Due to the way the game works, if they started targeting non-pirate players word of it would get out, they'd be ostracized by the community, and hunted down themselves. They can no more hide the nature of their activities than the pirates can.
What on earth gave you the impression that I was suggesting that piracy and extortion is just and fair? The whole point of it is to be unjust, unfair, arbitrary and corrupt to present a challenge to be overcome. That IS the role. The antipirates are supposed to be the mirror image of that, beacons of honour and fairness.
Yes, they also have to present a challenge to pirates, but we're talking about clear cut cases here. Obviously there are pirates that VPR should be targeting, its the ones in between the lines where the issues become more complicated.
It's harmful to our status as an upstanding community when our so-called anti-pirates are just as corrupt, arbitrary and unfair as the pirates are in choosing their targets and dealing with players. To quote one of our members who felt bullied by the VPR: "And they call US the bad guys".
Their play-style also fundamentally revolves around preying on other players, but not only do they prey on other players they also insight preying on those players due to the perception and the clever marketing that the Vipers have managed to maintain for all these years, that they are "the good guys" and have a morally superior claim to legitimise their choice of targets.
Err.. re: your point about political content vs gameplay content etc.. etc. I have no idea where you hang out most of the time so I can't speak to that, but there is a hell of a lot of this kind of gameplay happening already in Vendetta. It is a major selling point for the game and MMO's in general like VO that they are a socio-political sandbox. People have told me, for instance, they joined TGFT specifically because they like the politics of a large organisation, so while you may prefer to pew pew no questions asked, there are a whole class of players that come because of this kind of player-generated content.
Oh and by the by, if you do happen to be one of those players that just wants to pew pew, we have guilds for you, they're called pirate guilds!! If you want to be legitimate, honourable fighters, establish a basis for your claim as such, don't just act exactly like pirates and then simultaneously talk down to them. It's silly.
Sure, it's not a problem now at all, VPR is the tiny shell of what it once was, probably because the role is so antiquated and relatively boring to play because there's no context to it, adding a new level of political involvement and drama into the game which will breed more conflict and more player-generated gameplay. At the end of the day you can't really prove or disprove either of us without giving it a shot. If I was a viper officer I'd be having a serious thought about it because they need to do something to mix it up and attract more players.. the pirates are winning!!!
Yes, they also have to present a challenge to pirates, but we're talking about clear cut cases here. Obviously there are pirates that VPR should be targeting, its the ones in between the lines where the issues become more complicated.
It's harmful to our status as an upstanding community when our so-called anti-pirates are just as corrupt, arbitrary and unfair as the pirates are in choosing their targets and dealing with players. To quote one of our members who felt bullied by the VPR: "And they call US the bad guys".
Their play-style also fundamentally revolves around preying on other players, but not only do they prey on other players they also insight preying on those players due to the perception and the clever marketing that the Vipers have managed to maintain for all these years, that they are "the good guys" and have a morally superior claim to legitimise their choice of targets.
Err.. re: your point about political content vs gameplay content etc.. etc. I have no idea where you hang out most of the time so I can't speak to that, but there is a hell of a lot of this kind of gameplay happening already in Vendetta. It is a major selling point for the game and MMO's in general like VO that they are a socio-political sandbox. People have told me, for instance, they joined TGFT specifically because they like the politics of a large organisation, so while you may prefer to pew pew no questions asked, there are a whole class of players that come because of this kind of player-generated content.
Oh and by the by, if you do happen to be one of those players that just wants to pew pew, we have guilds for you, they're called pirate guilds!! If you want to be legitimate, honourable fighters, establish a basis for your claim as such, don't just act exactly like pirates and then simultaneously talk down to them. It's silly.
Sure, it's not a problem now at all, VPR is the tiny shell of what it once was, probably because the role is so antiquated and relatively boring to play because there's no context to it, adding a new level of political involvement and drama into the game which will breed more conflict and more player-generated gameplay. At the end of the day you can't really prove or disprove either of us without giving it a shot. If I was a viper officer I'd be having a serious thought about it because they need to do something to mix it up and attract more players.. the pirates are winning!!!
On the one hand, I almost hear where you're coming from (although I find your supporting reasoning wanting). On the other hand, I am deeply insulted by the insinuation that piracy is the only option for me if I want to participate in PvP without stepping into the quagmire of out-of-game roleplaying and politics*. On the gripping hand, I think that you're demanding that a group of players you don't particularly like perform unnecessary make-work for the sake of satisfying your ego.
*It's not that I don't think that such things should exist, but when they become mandatory they become unfun busywork, at least for me. I prefer to opt-in, rather than be forced to participate. It's the same sort of principle as to why some people stare at spreadsheets for hours at work and hate their jobs, and then go home and stare at spreadsheets for hours playing EVE or the like and enjoy themselves.
*It's not that I don't think that such things should exist, but when they become mandatory they become unfun busywork, at least for me. I prefer to opt-in, rather than be forced to participate. It's the same sort of principle as to why some people stare at spreadsheets for hours at work and hate their jobs, and then go home and stare at spreadsheets for hours playing EVE or the like and enjoy themselves.
On the other hand, I am deeply insulted by the insinuation that piracy is the only option for me if I want to participate in PvP without stepping into the quagmire of out-of-game roleplaying and politics
ONE word: Nationalism. ('I see what you did there' moment anyone)
EDIT: I am personally trying to look into the idea of getting bounty hunting going in Vendetta a bit more, frankly this verse is so greyspace-centric that people automatically assume it has to be black and white, pirates vs everyone else. It's boring and needs to be fixed.
On the gripping hand, I think that you're demanding that a group of players you don't particularly like perform unnecessary make-work for the sake of satisfying your ego.
Are you kidding? I love the Vipers! I even like Isha and he's the most painful to deal with of all of them (extra lols if you are Isha). This is NOT the role-playing forum, injustice is a pet-peeve of mine and that's all this is about, it's nothing personal against the pilots of Viper some of whom I really like, most of them I respect. They mean well, that is not the problem, the system is the problem and the way other people accept without question that they have authority when really it has no legitimacy in any sense of the word. If I hated the Vipers I would simply be trying to destroy that legitimacy in the eyes of the community, rather than suggesting a way for it to gain genuine legitimacy. In any case, of the two options I think the latter is more beneficial to us all.
The only thing this would really require is an optional invitation for a representative from each guild to have a vote, and a pledge by the Vipers to abide by their ruling and whenever a decision is being made a chance for that person in question to make a brief submission on that ruling. Every guild in VO has some sort of rules, even the pirate guilds have some basic frameworks, the Vipers just need to adjust there's to be more community oriented, or go the route of the dark vigilante like Rin suggested earlier in the thread. The latter is more interesting to me as a player that really only continues to play this game for the political player-driven content.
ONE word: Nationalism. ('I see what you did there' moment anyone)
EDIT: I am personally trying to look into the idea of getting bounty hunting going in Vendetta a bit more, frankly this verse is so greyspace-centric that people automatically assume it has to be black and white, pirates vs everyone else. It's boring and needs to be fixed.
On the gripping hand, I think that you're demanding that a group of players you don't particularly like perform unnecessary make-work for the sake of satisfying your ego.
Are you kidding? I love the Vipers! I even like Isha and he's the most painful to deal with of all of them (extra lols if you are Isha). This is NOT the role-playing forum, injustice is a pet-peeve of mine and that's all this is about, it's nothing personal against the pilots of Viper some of whom I really like, most of them I respect. They mean well, that is not the problem, the system is the problem and the way other people accept without question that they have authority when really it has no legitimacy in any sense of the word. If I hated the Vipers I would simply be trying to destroy that legitimacy in the eyes of the community, rather than suggesting a way for it to gain genuine legitimacy. In any case, of the two options I think the latter is more beneficial to us all.
The only thing this would really require is an optional invitation for a representative from each guild to have a vote, and a pledge by the Vipers to abide by their ruling and whenever a decision is being made a chance for that person in question to make a brief submission on that ruling. Every guild in VO has some sort of rules, even the pirate guilds have some basic frameworks, the Vipers just need to adjust there's to be more community oriented, or go the route of the dark vigilante like Rin suggested earlier in the thread. The latter is more interesting to me as a player that really only continues to play this game for the political player-driven content.
hmmm could we pay da snakes to look the otha way...
what about some donuts?
what about some donuts?
As a former Viper, my unofficial take is they are more like ninjas than police officers. The organization is more important than the individual: reducing one's footprint while accomplishing a task without anyone knowing but the client, and accepting no reward or public congratulations. I've noticed the ones talking about the Vipers in this thread aren't Vipers, and the few Vipers that have responded were probably ordered to.
When I became a guide I knew that projecting a public image wouldn't click with the Viper's goals, which is part of the reason I chose to resign. Even saying this much is probably outside by bounds. Hopefully I won't be hunted down and silenced ;-).
When I became a guide I knew that projecting a public image wouldn't click with the Viper's goals, which is part of the reason I chose to resign. Even saying this much is probably outside by bounds. Hopefully I won't be hunted down and silenced ;-).
I am Ishathis Bessuni. This used to be widely known, but I probably should have identified myself. I was not ordered to post in this thread and I am absolutely not preparing a batch of untraceable poison to introduce in to the life support system of Phaserlight's ship.
I'm sorry for the bully comment. It seems that it was taken to mean "most pirates are bullies OOC" and that's not what I meant at all. I retract it.
We, at VPR do expect that most people will believe us about who will attack them and who will not. We have a pretty good handle on the ROE (if any) used by other guilds and absolutely no reason to mislead anybody about that.
No guild allows outsiders to decide who its enemies are, and VPR does not have any plans to become the first to do so. At the risk of repeating myself:
1. We protect traders.
2. We hunt pirates.
3. We defend ourselves.
I'm sorry for the bully comment. It seems that it was taken to mean "most pirates are bullies OOC" and that's not what I meant at all. I retract it.
We, at VPR do expect that most people will believe us about who will attack them and who will not. We have a pretty good handle on the ROE (if any) used by other guilds and absolutely no reason to mislead anybody about that.
No guild allows outsiders to decide who its enemies are, and VPR does not have any plans to become the first to do so. At the risk of repeating myself:
1. We protect traders.
2. We hunt pirates.
3. We defend ourselves.
"we are weakening our claim as a good community by standing idly by letting a group of players who claim to be about justice regularly and notoriously practice injustice and unfairness." (emphasis mine)
Can you provide examples?
Keep in mind that FAMY in trade ships don't count, even if those members are the sort who only trade. If they don't like the good guys shooting them, they shouldn't have joined the mafia. Hardcore nationalists who shoot traders who support their enemies also don't count. They endanger traders. Mercs are a more questionable case. If the mercs begin targeting traders or VPR, then it makes sense for VPR to shoot them.
So, keeping that in mind, let's see some examples of the people they have regularly practiced injustice against.
Can you provide examples?
Keep in mind that FAMY in trade ships don't count, even if those members are the sort who only trade. If they don't like the good guys shooting them, they shouldn't have joined the mafia. Hardcore nationalists who shoot traders who support their enemies also don't count. They endanger traders. Mercs are a more questionable case. If the mercs begin targeting traders or VPR, then it makes sense for VPR to shoot them.
So, keeping that in mind, let's see some examples of the people they have regularly practiced injustice against.