Well Rin there could be a clear requirement for membership on the VPR executive council like having so many active members. There are plenty of ways to improve the system and make it fairer.

So, in my circumstance, if I requested help, but was told by VPR, "no, sorry we can't help because that guild isn't a registered pirate guild. We thank you for your information, and will be sure to submit it during our next weekly meeting. In the meantime, you are just going to have to pay or die.". I really don't like that.

Personally I think that would be hilarious. But no, if you hire Viper for an escort, nobody is going to have a problem with them killing any aggressors regardless of what their affiliation is, so it's not really a valid objection.

But Viper doesn't operate that way, they advertise escorts but what they do most often is patrol greyspace in much the same fashion as actual pirates and pick on particular pilots they deem to be 'pirates' rather than anyone who just happens to be in sector. They do this regardless of the ship or the purpose of your presence in the sector, if you are trader that is loosely affiliated with so-called pirate guild (as decided solely at the discretion of Viper), then you are targeted and destroyed.

There is nothing particularly wrong with this, except that if you want to go around shooting people you don't like or as a group decide that you should shoot at, we already have a guild for that, its called FAMY - our roleplay is mafia, that means you do secret deals and corruption is A-OK.

If Viper wants to actually live up to its role, then it needs to establish some actual legitimacy, rather than having members (some of which are well above average at combat) go around acting like they are on a mission from god to rid the verse of people that nobody wants, when really they don't have conclusive evidence that proves people don't want them around.

Eh, I would prefer they move in the opposite direction: become a gritty guild of loose cannon vigilantes who aren't afraid of hurting their standings to kill pirates, and are consequently unliked within nation spaces.

VRP as it is now are a bunch of cowards. Their commander actually ran away from me in a Corvus station once, because he was afraid of hurting his standings if he killed me. I can only remember a single instance when a VPR was actually willing to take a faction hit to kill me. (At least I assume he was, but since he never managed to kill me I don't really know.)

Rin I would also prefer they move in that direction, but thats what VPR would be if me and you were the Lieutenants.

If they want to do the whole honourable justice warrior guild thing they have to at least play the part properly.

With regard to faction hits, personally I’m still recovering from a POS to 0 point hit, after nailing a pirate in UIT space. Half of last night was spent in a moth working on faction, the other half spent training a new viper applicant, not patrolling grey space as you suggest. As a matter of fact the VPR council has requested combat pilots move away from using the terms “patrol” and “patrolman” as this creates the wrong impression of our duties.

Contrary to popular belief the guild is not about hunting pirates/criminals but to protect non-combatants such as traders/miners and to some degree to guide and support new players.

While my own combat hail is somewhat more aggressive, most viper’s combat hails are a request for the aggressor to leave the sector. The only circumstance I can think of, where a Viper combat pilot would give chase to a pirate, would be if he was in nation space targeting new players. Along with mojoflow comments early in this thread. I recently responded to an attack in UIT capital space against new players by “grief” a member of a self-proclaimed criminal guild.

Whether we are seen as vigilantes or an international security service, with a membership of 20 Viper we are far outnumbered by the rat/criminal guilds. So it’s lucky that we have some exceptional combat pilots in our ranks. I’m so pleased that despite probably more than 3 - 1 odds, the Viper Guild is seen as such a threat to the nefarious activities of morally deficient players.

The Viper Council provides the guidelines for viper pilots and decides which guilds & individuals have “Kill on sight” status for viper members; the council’s decisions is based on reports from members.

As a non-council member I can’t speak for the guild, with regard to the idea of an executive council made up of criminals and pirates, having any sort of control over VPR management. However speaking personally, the day that happens would be the day I resign and start my Hunters Guild, of course FAMY would always be in season, bring me the head of “Savet Hagar”!

Redscar
<~~ Making the verse a better place, one plasma bolt at a time. ~~>

Contrary to popular belief the guild is not about hunting pirates/criminals but to protect non-combatants such as traders/miners

Right, which is why VPR will kill and steal the cargo (if valuable) of any known pirate they see trading in a moth.

Wait...

From the Vipers guild page: "The Vipers are a multi-national group of players who protect traders and hunt pirates."

Sorry RedScar but the Vipers operate the way you suggest they do a minority of the time, and operate as a "pirate of pirates" guild the majority of the time.

You also mention 'criminals' and it is mentioned in the VO guild page for Viper as well that you "suppress criminals". But since there is no law in grey-space by design, the Vipers, also by design, are vigilantes and have always been vigilantes regardless of the intentions of the founders or operators of the organisation.

Rather than a group of players who exists to help people, VPR are just a group of pilots who thinks they are morally superior to everybody and anybody else who does not share their view of what is moral or what is immoral behaviour is a potential target, subject to your secret "strike-policy" where the subject of the proceedings gets no say or has any chance to make a submission and is judged by only the Vipers who are also the ones who carry out the execution.

Are there good players in VPR? sure! But they are morally indoctrinated to pick on people that Viper deems to be pirates, and when those people complain, Vipers laugh, mock them and call them 'rats'.

In summary: VPR: A Vigilante, corrupt and morally indoctrinating organisation by design.

Now, you may think my criticism is a bit harsh, but it is required to make you come to your senses and get off your ridiculous high horse pretending you are doing something good for the verse by flying under the [VPR] tag. If you want to change any of this, implement a system of judgment with even the slightest bit of legitimacy and everybody will shut up and accept it.

"You also mention 'criminals' and it is mentioned in the VO guild page for Viper as well that you "suppress criminals". But since there is no law in grey-space by design, the Vipers, also by design, are vigilantes and have always been vigilantes regardless of the intentions of the founders or operators of the organisation."

This statement is not valid logic. Definition time!

A vigilante is a private individual (or (pl.) group of individuals) who presumes to carry out extralegal punishment in defiance of existing law.

The lack of law in non-station parts of greyspace is not what makes them vigilantes, but rather the fact that they are working outside the law rather than through it. In fact, in areas where there are no laws, I'm not sure a person could actually be classified as a vigilante, since there is no existing law for them to defy.

Anyway, they can justify killing pirate traders the same way you justified killing Spry, so I don't see what you're complaining about in that regard.

They do like to declare as pirates anybody who plays the nationalist card correctly, but then, if one of their goals is to keep traders safe, it makes sense to also kill the more exuberant nationalists. The only issue I have with that is the misuse of the term "pirate". Lots of perfectly suitable words exist. Extremist, terrorist, militant, rogue, etc.

Heh... The Vipers make people who shoot at us KOS and we make guilds with members who shoot at us KOS. I don't know what the hell all you people are blabbering about. Every guild currently on our KOS list had members that shot at us before we made them KOS. We often do the "unarmed moth test". We typically call the ones in guilds with members who say things like "yarr" or "give me credits to pass" pirates, and we typically call the rest criminals. You can call us "pirates" if you'd like, but that would seem an odd choice given that we don't ask our targets for payment or collect cargo. "Vigilantes" is probably a fair description. We also help protect other people from pilots and guilds on our KOS list, for free. It's all a huge complicated evil conspiracy, I know.

or collect cargo.

That part's a lie. We pirates play our games -- but don't pretend VPR don't play games, too.

So I'm a vigilante now, vigilantes usually work in isolation, true to some degree, due to time zones I'm often fighting alone. However I am part of a bigger group, that monitor the universe, hmmm like the Watchmen. Okay so now I have to don a Rorschach mask before I fire up my vulture.



Well this thread has taken me from righteous pilot of the future to dark vigilante bringing pain and death to those I relentlessly pursuit. I guess it sucks to be you!

Rorschach's Journal. October 12th, 1985:

Dog carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach. This city is afraid of me. I have seen it's true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"...

...and I'll look down, and whisper "no."

Heh. That's a good look for you.

VPR protects traders and hunts pirates, and if someone makes a habit of attacking us, we start attacking them preemptively. We do not feel the need to justify these actions. Call us by any name you like.

Rin is correct.

I am suggesting they are vigilantes by their own definition, since they claim that guilds like FAMY are criminals, when in fact there are no laws in greyspace. So if FAMY are criminals, then by the same logic VPR are vigilantes assuming that the law would be construed in their favour.

The justification for being hunted by VPR that one typically receives while peacefully trading under a guild that is VPR KoS is that they are supporting an illegal organisation, which is not true because duh there are no laws.. So really what is happening is that VPR are just another guild that shoots players it doesn't like.

Using oily slick words the Mafioso lawyers argue their case; they proclaims in systems with no authority we are unauthorised. With twisted words and smirking faces all the trolls pipe up. They understand so little, they have seen so much grey they cannot see black and white anymore. I will enlighten them, in the absence of justice, what is sovereignty but organized robbery. We the incorruptible few will bring you justice, but do not think we do this because it is permitted. We do it because we have to, we do it because we compelled.

RedScar

Yawn.

Time for a move to RP.

zak:

Um, I think you DO want to justify that action... (I mean, I have no problem with you doing it. I've fought several generations of VPR's now, and I'd rather not stop)

What separates you "Dudley Do-Right's" from us "Snidely Whiplash's" is a moral compass...and a horse.... and a mounty suit (The suit may have a compass holder).

For example, I've got no problem with you firing on me when I'm in a trading vessel. But it does seem counter to your justifications for hunting us in the first place. If we're in trading vessels, the universe is safer. If you blow us up, we'll get into combat ships and make the universe more dangerous.

EDIT:

I mean really, what you need are education programs to prevent recidivism.

As far as role-play goes, you're probably in a trade ship for a reason. Maybe you're transporting stolen goods, or maybe you're moving resources that will help you pirate later. Most things a pirate can do in a trade ship are, or at least could be in support of piracy. Since I can't read your mind (or the contents of your hold, with the setups I normally fly), I'll take the safe bet and shoot you.

Going up a meta-level, this is a game and it's more fun to shoot you than let you go. I don't think my play style is morally superior OOC, though I imagine real-life bullies might be attracted to piracy as a play style in a game like this.

"though I imagine real-life bullies might be attracted to piracy as a play style in a game like this."

This is rather snide and snarky, what are you implying?

2 Things.

Firstly, ZZZakZZZok, for someone who claims to be a nationalist, you are more interested in piracy than nationalism, you are an anti-pirate, and you've dragged your guild's name through the dirt for a long time now with your ridiculous patrols through h2. You're more vocal about being against FAMY than you are against Itan, which is meant to be your role.

People who play pirates in this game are not in fact bullies in real life. I play the Red Spy because I spend all day practising and conducting myself to high ethical standards just to help idiots out who are too greedy for their own good and get caught for tax fraud or some bullshit like that.

Pirates in VO are in by-in-large, intelligent, sophisticated and morally upstanding members of society that come into a game for an escape and an experience that differs from reality, not to have all this real-life moral bullshit dumped on us just because you're plainly incapable of recognising that people are role-playing which by definition is assuming a character that does not reflect ones actual stances or beliefs in reality.

It's the same when people use the term 'griefer', there is no such thing as a griefer, and if you have just read the above and are thinking "Of course there's such thing as a griefer", then I officially proclaim you to be an idiot. Good day.

2 Things.

Firstly, ZZZakZZZok

1 thing; you're confused.