The issue isn't about a group of players in normal ships not being able to take on goliaths. In a Dent v goliath, unless the trident pilot uses turret bots, the goliath will usually survive either by killing the dent or managing to escape.

It's just as someone described above, a swarm hound but for capital ships. It should either posses combat capability at the sacrifice of speed or vice-versa.

About buffing cargo space, let's not forget that both capships are currently able to equip significantly more cargo through bugs. A 1200cu trident cargo space as suggested by Ghost997 would be equivalent to 1800cu through the bug, which iirc isn't going to be fixed anytime soon as stated by Inc somewhere.

P.S.- IL you do know grid power and max cell capacity are two different things?

(Unhelpful and off-topic ramble removed).

I'd like to make a quick point, that posting on Suggestions is a privilege and not a right. This is the forum I read the most, and the one that takes up most of my time, and basically the forum where players have the greatest chance of influencing the future of the game.

The "signal to noise" ratio on this forum is really important (second only to Bugs). If an individual generates a lot of self-absorbed, entitled "noise", for a long enough period of time, that may result in said person not posting here any further.

There is an expectation that people who contribute on this forum will have sufficient perspective and critical thinking to be able to put the needs of the overall game ahead of their own personal whims or desires.

Also, posting with a bunch of forum alts, to agree with yourself, is both explicitly prohibited, and generally lame.

Back to the topic at hand..

Well I think it's pretty damn clear things are out of balance.

In an ideal situation, VO would have enough active players to facilitate having other players escort the player capships. But even in that scenario, the ability to pin down a goliath is difficult due to speed, agility and armaments, AND lack of adequate anti-capship weaponry.

I think what wash said re: concrete issues is correct, except it misses one primary difference between Tridents and Goliaths: cargo space. In combat situations, Goliaths are more formidable. In trade situations (absent combat), Tridents are more formidable. So in a sort of ironic way, Goliaths present as unbalanced because we expect them to be wholly inferior to Tridents (due to the drastically smaller manufacturing requirement), when in reality they are balanced fairly equally. Gameplay wise it's clear that the agility of the Goliath far outweighs in importance all the other lesser-that-Trident specifications, something perhaps the devs never really anticipated as they tried to figure out how to make a "lite" capship.

So, it therefore follows that the build requirements between the two are very uneven. I'm willing to bet if you brought them closer, or made them the same, then people wouldn't be so upset. What seems unfair at the moment is that you can get more bang for your buck if you make a Goliath.

I think the best path towards balancing is bringing the Goliath and Trident closer in regards to manufacturing requirements, and then also giving us more effecitve anti-capship weaponry (i.e. to be used by non-capship ships). This is better than trying to figure out ways to nerf the Goliath.

I don't have an issue with the build reqs. The issue is the combination of High Grid and HIgh Speed & Maneuvering give it too much combat effectiveness since the capswarm buff. I even said in the LTS comments reviewing the Goli it needed less Grid.

Now had the capswarm buff not happened then this would not be an issue, it's just one of those side effect things that could not be anticipated until the fire rate exploits were fixed and actual combat happened.

The Goli big feature was the speed and maneuverability which I have no issue with, it offsets the higher armor of the slower trident.

When you combine that speed with a grid high enough to equip 3 capswarm turrets plus main LP weapon is when you have tipped the balance to far into its favor. Adjusting the GRID to anywhere between 35 and 55 would bring things back into balance as then more careful choices have to be made as to how to equip the ship.

As I stated previously I can counter the advantage right now but it requires 4 gunners & 4 caprails to plink the target while it stays out of cpswarm range. That is just not practical for other trident owners to even consider hence the original suggestion.

Bringing the GRID to a reasonable number does not hinder the Goli from being effective it simply requires choices in what the pilot wants it to be effective at.

WeAllFloat made a point that if the thrust was dropped that would balance tings out as well but I think doing that would put the Goli at too much of a disadvantage.

What's wrong with the Goliath being better at combat than a trident?

That's INC decision to make. I am simply presenting information that the only two capships useable by players are not balanced.

Yeah, more effective anti-capship weapons for non-capital ships is the most needed change here.

Grid power and grid cell? Yes I know the difference. But if I remember correctly the old goli was talked about as being overpowered and then being rebalancing and nerfed. It will and always shall be MY opinion that both are pretty balanced. And if the end game is golis losing ability to have a full capswarm set and a LP that's fine. Three turrets were what it was given and three turrets is all a goliath needs to deshield a dent. Doesn't matter if it's 1/4th the build or numbers dont add up on certain things, instead of asking "how can I weaken a ship already lacking in direct combat. Ask yourself what you can do make your attack strategy better. I've lost over 40 golis in two months simply because two players decided to attack me., because one player stacked my Goli and unrats killed it. This will be my last comment as it seems I have to argue over the same things I have defended twice over. Best way to show incarnate and Raymond what happens when a goli and dent fight is to well, show them. If either would be ok with a live example they may formulate their opinions in their words what's happening. I'll gladly provide my goliath piloting as a example. Ita honest to god hard to weave in and out of range of a dent and not get deshielded. 2.3k is where swarms are effective on a cap I believe. Either one can kill the other as all a dent has to do is turbo on the path the goli is going. I think I've said it before that the goli being accused of being "nerfed" is more of a experience thing and not a ship thing. Goliaths were fine until dents were killed by them. This suggestion is in my opinion obsolete. So ya, thank you all for discussing this with me. Thank you to incarnate for allowing me to share my opinion and letting me argue about every comment. Cheers

Best way to show incarnate and Raymond what happens when a goli and dent fight is to well,

Its "Raybondo" not "Raymond" Iron lord.

Could you further explain this? Cap ships turbo at 140 m/s. Homing swarms don't go faster than 80 m/s. So how are a trident's swarms supposed to catch up with the goliath?

I own a goliath and i think its a tad more than what the effort i put in.

@Iron lord. The caprails firing forwards was my saying, hypothicially saying they can all fire forwards nose of the dent with turret bots doesn't mean anyone done it. Yet.

I know autocorrect messed it up

Well wut about that u cant equip a capship with capship weapons and also have a large port, how can u call it a capship? u might as well call it a XC with some standard turret ports and a shield.

And on running all the dent users go head into the goli which moving towards the swarms of course the dent will be deshielded, however if u fly either alongside or away it cant touch ya cuz goli cant get in front fast enough.

On the other hand 2 capswarms and a basic turret dosnt even let u equip a front weapon and 2 capswarms isn't near enough to deshield a dent. u have to work it out from both being sat still. and yet a rag (non capship, faster and smaller) can deshield and kill both capships without any effort. So a smaller ship that takes no manu at all can do more damage then a capship seems unfair.

There are valid point that have been mentioned by everyone however I don't think a cell nerf is the key, maybe buff the dent shields a bit more.

Why should a Goliath be able to deshield a bigger capship Anewold? You do realise the Goliath is only about the size of 1 Trident engine right? This is like saying the Ec89 isn't balanced because a Valkyrie can go faster. Comparing a Rag to a capship also makes no sense, of course a bomber has a clear advantage in output damage power, but have you ever tried to dodge/absorb swarms in a fully loaded Rag? It isn't easy...

TPG Goliath description changed to remove the term "Freighter" as all VO ships are multi-role.
Goliath powercell grid changed from 125 to 55.

All as of today.

-Vendetta Online 1.8.475.

Well, I don't usually post on the forums, but despite being a Goliath owner, I have to agree, at least in part, with Wash. However, I would like to point out that, now that I can no longer equip three turrets on my Goliath due to the update yesterday, it has been all but removed from being combat effective against another capital ship, especially a trident. This is not a complaint, this is just pointing out the obvious. So it would seem that aside from smaller ships, the Goliath is no longer a generally combat worthy vessel, and in some cases even against smaller ships. someone would only need to identify which turret is unequipped, and then light into it with an ihdpc/Mega posi combo to drop the shields. Again, I am not complaining, just pointing out the obvious. With all of that being said, it appears to me that the Goliath has now been forced into more of a freighter style roll, and as such, I believe that the cargo capacity should be increased. The Trident now owns the battlefield, so the Goliath should be owning the transportation department. I don't use gunners, whether actual players or alt accounts, and I have no quarrel with people that do. However, I am now having aspects of my Goliath taken away from me that severely hamper my ability to make it past the NPC Pirates with it. what that is doing is forcing Pilots to have to manually clear them with smaller ships. It is my firm belief that if that is the case, and it's quite obvious that my Goliath is not going to get grandfathered in and have its power grid restored, even though it was built prior to that update, then my cargo hold should be doubled. if you are going to restrict it to a freighter capacity, then it needs to be able to carry like a freighter.

Also, seeing as you guys are in the business of making alterations to Goliaths, I would expect that you are going to enlarge the Docking Bay so that it isn't a several minute process for me to try to get my behemoths in there. a ship that has been restricted to pretty much nothing more than a freak capacity should have the ability to have ships dock and undock with ease.

The Goliath is still capable of outfitting 3 turrets, just not 3 capitol turrets.

Example load outs:

CapRail, 2 gems, Tu mine
Caprail, Gem, FireCracker, Mega Posi
CapSwarm, Gem, Gauss, Gat
2 Capswarm, Neut, TU Mine
3 Gem, Mega-Posi
and so on.

You guys act like the CapSwarm is the only turret in existence.

I was referring to strictly Capitol Turrets, no matter the type. I'm not particularly a fan of Capitol Swarms personally, and on occasion I tinker with other non-capitol setups. However Wash, I agree wholeheartedly that a reduction in Goliath capabilities, to done extent, MUST be done, or it would continue to be a slap in the face to anyone who has put the time and effort into building a Trident - especially those that built them back when the requirements darted those currently. My issue is not with the reduction of the power grid, rather, that if the ship is being involuntarily nerfed to lessen it's overall combat effectiveness and redirect it more towards a freighter class ship, then it should be able to carry more freight, and the Docking Bay needs to be enlarged so that the said Freight can actually be moved back and forth with less hassle. Therein lies the rub, sir.

To be quite honest, I would actually be okay with it only having one Capital turn it on the stern, and the other to be non-capital turrets. It's faster and designed to flee rather than to stay and fight, so maybe just one Capital turret on the stern to assist in fighting the NPC Pirates, and in fleeing other dangers.