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Actually that was a strawman argument, Greenwall, although I should have elaborated on my position better.
I was not saying that guilds who don't have continuous leadership presence are incompetent. I was saying that guilds which accept spammy or abusive people and then fail to react to complaints in a timely manner are incompetent. Yes, there might be a delay of a couple days before troublesome members who managed to get in can be kicked out, but during the interim the guild members can simply /ignore those people.
Which leads to another issue genka brought up -- if I think we should just /ignore spammy guild members, why have /vote mute at all? Why not just use /ignore in all cases? But there's a difference. Unlike with general chat, guild spam doesn't ruin anybody's first impression of the game. Also, people who can operate the /guild command well enough to join a guild can be assumed to have enough brains to figure out the /ignore command. Not all newbs are so smart. Being able to mute people on general chat therefor provides much more utility than being able to mute people in guild chat.
As for his concern about whether members of some guild are "allowed" to /ignore other guild members, any guild that tells you who you can and cannot /ignore -- or is so rule-heavy that you don't even know if it does that -- is not a guild worth being a part of.
I was not saying that guilds who don't have continuous leadership presence are incompetent. I was saying that guilds which accept spammy or abusive people and then fail to react to complaints in a timely manner are incompetent. Yes, there might be a delay of a couple days before troublesome members who managed to get in can be kicked out, but during the interim the guild members can simply /ignore those people.
Which leads to another issue genka brought up -- if I think we should just /ignore spammy guild members, why have /vote mute at all? Why not just use /ignore in all cases? But there's a difference. Unlike with general chat, guild spam doesn't ruin anybody's first impression of the game. Also, people who can operate the /guild command well enough to join a guild can be assumed to have enough brains to figure out the /ignore command. Not all newbs are so smart. Being able to mute people on general chat therefor provides much more utility than being able to mute people in guild chat.
As for his concern about whether members of some guild are "allowed" to /ignore other guild members, any guild that tells you who you can and cannot /ignore -- or is so rule-heavy that you don't even know if it does that -- is not a guild worth being a part of.
Speaking directly about the main aspect of the OP is the opposite of a strawman argument.
I'm still waiting on that evidence of rampant abuse so many of you are riding on.
Fluffy brings up a good point that Savet has conveniently ignored (pun intended), which is that the relief of the community can be had by using /ignore. It's MUCH easier to /ignore someone than it is to /vote mute them. Why a /vote mute would serve exclusively as a redundant relief measure in combination with /ignore makes no sense. What does make sense is that /vote mute is a PENALTY meant to PUNISH someone with the intention of correcting their socially offensive behavior.
I'm still waiting on that evidence of rampant abuse so many of you are riding on.
Fluffy brings up a good point that Savet has conveniently ignored (pun intended), which is that the relief of the community can be had by using /ignore. It's MUCH easier to /ignore someone than it is to /vote mute them. Why a /vote mute would serve exclusively as a redundant relief measure in combination with /ignore makes no sense. What does make sense is that /vote mute is a PENALTY meant to PUNISH someone with the intention of correcting their socially offensive behavior.
Nope, as I just got done saying, /vote mute shuts the person up so that freshly joined players over the next couple hours don't see the spam and come away with a bad first impression.
And nobody has claimed that abuse is rampant. That's something you keep making up in your continued attempts to misrepresent us. What I have said is that although abuse is infrequent, my desire to mute somebody who is in a guild has been similarly infrequent.
You did point out that for you, that's not the case. You've wanted to mute more people who are in guilds. But that doesn't change the validity of my statement. It only shows that your threshold for mutable behavior is lower than mine. You want to mute people over more trivial behavior, and you want to punish them more harshly.
And nobody has claimed that abuse is rampant. That's something you keep making up in your continued attempts to misrepresent us. What I have said is that although abuse is infrequent, my desire to mute somebody who is in a guild has been similarly infrequent.
You did point out that for you, that's not the case. You've wanted to mute more people who are in guilds. But that doesn't change the validity of my statement. It only shows that your threshold for mutable behavior is lower than mine. You want to mute people over more trivial behavior, and you want to punish them more harshly.
@pizza
1) This is not about first impressions, this is about correcting the behavior of overly obnoxious chatters.
2) Arguing that guilds and groups should be immune from a community based /vote mute on the premise that guilds/groups should be given the right and responsibility to self regulate their chats is completely missing the point. A /vote mute is a game-wide penalty that exists in the absence of ever-present moderators. It must be game-wide in order to be effective at correcting the behavior (note I said correcting the behavior, not offering relief).
The error you are all making is that are failing to see the necessity of the penalty. I think you all just don't like penalties. /me hands you all a tissue
1) This is not about first impressions, this is about correcting the behavior of overly obnoxious chatters.
2) Arguing that guilds and groups should be immune from a community based /vote mute on the premise that guilds/groups should be given the right and responsibility to self regulate their chats is completely missing the point. A /vote mute is a game-wide penalty that exists in the absence of ever-present moderators. It must be game-wide in order to be effective at correcting the behavior (note I said correcting the behavior, not offering relief).
The error you are all making is that are failing to see the necessity of the penalty. I think you all just don't like penalties. /me hands you all a tissue
"I'm still pretending that evidence of rampant abuse is the position of my opposition."
-Greenwall Strawman #437
"Fluffy brings up a good point that I'll pretend Savet ignored in a misguided attempt to represent only 2 conflicting positions which support my argument for vote mute being a punitive justice hammer which completely ignores the history of my defeated arguments in prior vote mute threads."
-Greenwall False Dichotomy #291
/ignore = personal relief. This is like masturbation.
/vote mute = community relief. This is like a group orgy.
Community relief is very concisely explained by Pizza and serves a separate purpose than ignore. This isn't a difficult concept if you stop being dishonest.
-Greenwall Strawman #437
"Fluffy brings up a good point that I'll pretend Savet ignored in a misguided attempt to represent only 2 conflicting positions which support my argument for vote mute being a punitive justice hammer which completely ignores the history of my defeated arguments in prior vote mute threads."
-Greenwall False Dichotomy #291
/ignore = personal relief. This is like masturbation.
/vote mute = community relief. This is like a group orgy.
Community relief is very concisely explained by Pizza and serves a separate purpose than ignore. This isn't a difficult concept if you stop being dishonest.
I understand that you want to penalize people. However, what I'm saying is that the people I want to mute are not usually in guilds, so they are therefor not penalized additionally by removing their ability to chat to the guild they are not in. Therefor restricting guild chat has no utility to me. Meanwhile, it does provide utility to people who might wish to abuse the mute system, perhaps by waiting until somebody says something mildly rude so that they can claim it was in response to unruly behavior rather than competitiveness.
Your threshold for offense is lower than mine, which increases the pool of people you wish to mute to include some who are in guilds. So to you the revocation of guild chat does offer utility.
This is pretty simple to understand. There's no need to attempt to degrade the other side.
Your threshold for offense is lower than mine, which increases the pool of people you wish to mute to include some who are in guilds. So to you the revocation of guild chat does offer utility.
This is pretty simple to understand. There's no need to attempt to degrade the other side.
@pizza --
Kierky said /vote muting is being abused more than I think. He offered no examples.
Furthermore, I think it's silly to waste dev time to prevent/disincentivize something that is not a common abuse, which is what you and others are supporting.
Just because the particular people you feel deserve muting are usually not in guilds doesn't mean it's the same for everyone in game, nor should it. My threshold is different than yours, not necessarily lower. And honestly, I can't believe that I'm the only one who have felt the need to /vote mute someone who is in a guild. Oh wait, I'm not... there's SKV who started this whole stupid thing by muting kbireta, an endeavor of which Kierky, the author of this stupid OP, was a participating member.
I'll degrade anyone who degrades me first - you should know that by now. Others know it well and enjoy taking advantage of it, lol.
@savet
There's nothing stopping the entire community from using /ignore on someone, other than their own intellectual capacity, or perhaps a language barrier.
/ignore = relief
/vote mute = punishment + relief
FTFY
Placing the burden of proof on the suppoters of this suggestion is not a straw man. It's totally relevant because it's part of assessing the risk to the game by implimenting the suggestion -- something we all do for every suggestion.
I don't understand your run-on sentence #291, so I can't really respond to that even though I really wish I could.
Kierky said /vote muting is being abused more than I think. He offered no examples.
Furthermore, I think it's silly to waste dev time to prevent/disincentivize something that is not a common abuse, which is what you and others are supporting.
Just because the particular people you feel deserve muting are usually not in guilds doesn't mean it's the same for everyone in game, nor should it. My threshold is different than yours, not necessarily lower. And honestly, I can't believe that I'm the only one who have felt the need to /vote mute someone who is in a guild. Oh wait, I'm not... there's SKV who started this whole stupid thing by muting kbireta, an endeavor of which Kierky, the author of this stupid OP, was a participating member.
I'll degrade anyone who degrades me first - you should know that by now. Others know it well and enjoy taking advantage of it, lol.
@savet
There's nothing stopping the entire community from using /ignore on someone, other than their own intellectual capacity, or perhaps a language barrier.
/ignore = relief
/vote mute = punishment + relief
FTFY
Placing the burden of proof on the suppoters of this suggestion is not a straw man. It's totally relevant because it's part of assessing the risk to the game by implimenting the suggestion -- something we all do for every suggestion.
I don't understand your run-on sentence #291, so I can't really respond to that even though I really wish I could.
Greenwall's, You expect mobile newb #105632 to know to use /ignore when jumping into the game for the first time? This is what /vote mute is for... preventing the need for 50 people to have to separately ignore spammers.
This is about keeping public channels clean, not completely killing a person's gameplay experience because he annoyed the current threshold required to mute someone.
Also, the burden of proof is not on the supporters to prove misrepresented arguments that you attribute to them.
This is about keeping public channels clean, not completely killing a person's gameplay experience because he annoyed the current threshold required to mute someone.
Also, the burden of proof is not on the supporters to prove misrepresented arguments that you attribute to them.
This isn't about keeping channels clean. This is about moderating obnoxious [chat] behavior. Behavior and content are two different things. Moderation requires penalizing a person's gameplay experience adequately. Dude, I think we both understand eachother's positions, why keep re-wording it? Do you like typing, or just having the last word?
The burden of proof is on the supporters to show why it's worthwhile. Kierky asserts in his OP that this abuse has become "more of a problem" lately, but has nothing to show for it other than an attack HE HIMSELF perpetrated, and then the reasonable response he got back. He therefore has to show how it is happening in other situations outside of ones he caused for his concern to be valid. Otherwise he's just an arsonist complaining about a fire he started.
Perpetuating that I'm using straw man arguments when I'm obviously not is a cheap trolling tactic.
The burden of proof is on the supporters to show why it's worthwhile. Kierky asserts in his OP that this abuse has become "more of a problem" lately, but has nothing to show for it other than an attack HE HIMSELF perpetrated, and then the reasonable response he got back. He therefore has to show how it is happening in other situations outside of ones he caused for his concern to be valid. Otherwise he's just an arsonist complaining about a fire he started.
Perpetuating that I'm using straw man arguments when I'm obviously not is a cheap trolling tactic.
You want proof Greenwall?
1. kbireta was not muted by SKV, he was muted by a number of completely unrelated people because he was annoying the hell out of everyone on ch 100 for hours.
2. EP, IRC, Wrap & Shark got muted by 'TGFT vote mute squad' within minutes after writing 1 or 2 lines of text on public chat.
Support tickets were filed in all cases, devs investigated what happened and, at least in my case, emailed me back that the perpetrators will be dealt with.
Ask the devs for proof.
1. kbireta was not muted by SKV, he was muted by a number of completely unrelated people because he was annoying the hell out of everyone on ch 100 for hours.
2. EP, IRC, Wrap & Shark got muted by 'TGFT vote mute squad' within minutes after writing 1 or 2 lines of text on public chat.
Support tickets were filed in all cases, devs investigated what happened and, at least in my case, emailed me back that the perpetrators will be dealt with.
Ask the devs for proof.
You are ignoring the fact that we are not moderators .
We are players, who have a tool to provide relief and limit abuse. Nowhere has any developer indicated through word or action that they intend players to punish other players.
For you to keep insisting this is some sort of entitlement you should have in chat moderation makes no sense, and that is what people are arguing against.
I'm also not wrong in calling some of your arguments strawmen, as you have been cherry-picking what you feel Kierky's position is and applying it to Rin, myself, and others.
I'm arguing this because this is a good suggestion. It limits the incentive for abuse while having almost no negative repercussion.
In the very rare edge case that a guild feels the need to /vote mute one of its own members, I can point out that a guild without any commanders or LTs on is unlikely to have 10 members on also, making guilds completely outside the scope of what vote mute is designed to provide relief from.
I tried to save us some time, but you seem intent on running through all 1000 of my good and your bad arguments.
We are players, who have a tool to provide relief and limit abuse. Nowhere has any developer indicated through word or action that they intend players to punish other players.
For you to keep insisting this is some sort of entitlement you should have in chat moderation makes no sense, and that is what people are arguing against.
I'm also not wrong in calling some of your arguments strawmen, as you have been cherry-picking what you feel Kierky's position is and applying it to Rin, myself, and others.
I'm arguing this because this is a good suggestion. It limits the incentive for abuse while having almost no negative repercussion.
In the very rare edge case that a guild feels the need to /vote mute one of its own members, I can point out that a guild without any commanders or LTs on is unlikely to have 10 members on also, making guilds completely outside the scope of what vote mute is designed to provide relief from.
I tried to save us some time, but you seem intent on running through all 1000 of my good and your bad arguments.
Greenwall, sometimes I wonder if you own a mirror. You're always taking this harsh anti-asshole stance. There's nothing innately wrong with that, but it's strange given your own proclivities. Do you simply not recognize your own dishonesty? Or do you just not consider dishonesty to be assholery?
Take earlier in this thread, where you misrepresented my argument regarding in-guild abuse. That was obvious strawman tactics. When called on this, you started saying something about the OP, which had nothing to do with whether or not you were misrepresenting my argument. It was an attempt to distract from your actions. Now you're claiming you don't use strawman tactics, even though you did just use them against me. So you're also blatantly lying.
Do you really think we're too stupid to notice?
You do make good points sometimes, but they'd stand out a lot better if you didn't pad them with bullshit.
Take earlier in this thread, where you misrepresented my argument regarding in-guild abuse. That was obvious strawman tactics. When called on this, you started saying something about the OP, which had nothing to do with whether or not you were misrepresenting my argument. It was an attempt to distract from your actions. Now you're claiming you don't use strawman tactics, even though you did just use them against me. So you're also blatantly lying.
Do you really think we're too stupid to notice?
You do make good points sometimes, but they'd stand out a lot better if you didn't pad them with bullshit.
@ Rin
I think we simply have a misunderstanding.
I responded satirically to your 11:19AM statement because I thought it was an absurd view of what constitutes good guild leadership. The implication of your statement, as I read it, was what I funny-quoted you as saying.
It was also a comment on how I felt that it was silly for you to think the ability of commanders and LTs to kick bad actors was some how sufficient to replace the behavior modification that a global muting has. <---Perhaps I could have made that more clear.
I can certainly see how you thought it was a straw man argument since it wasn't what you intended on conveying (given your later elaboration). But for my part, I wasn't trying to make you say something I didn't think you were already saying.
Thus my denial of the straw man argument was based on my belief that I was still talking about guild chat and it how /vote mute affects it. In any case, my apologies for the misunderstanding.
@bojan
As if I will take you seriously on these forums ever again, lol.
@savet
You continue to completely ignore Incarnate's current stance on the issue. It's not JUST about relief. It's about affecting behavioral change. If a dog is barking loudly, you don't change it's behavior by putting on headphones so you can't hear it. You change it's behavior by using consequences. With humans consequences often take the form of punishment for exceptionally obnoxious behavior.
This is why nobody's behavior changes when a single person ignores them. The only start to change when they start to realize NOBODY in the entire game can hear them.
On the surface it might seem like I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. But, given *many* of those who have shown support for this issue (although I will admit 'ore and genka are the odd ones out), and given the motivation of Kierky posting this in the first place, I view this suggestion as an attempt by people to expand their ability to be assholes in game. They want to be assholes in game and not be punished for it. That's what I'm fighting against. I do not support abuse of /vote mute whatsoever, but if someone truly deserves it, they should get the full treatment.
I think we simply have a misunderstanding.
I responded satirically to your 11:19AM statement because I thought it was an absurd view of what constitutes good guild leadership. The implication of your statement, as I read it, was what I funny-quoted you as saying.
It was also a comment on how I felt that it was silly for you to think the ability of commanders and LTs to kick bad actors was some how sufficient to replace the behavior modification that a global muting has. <---Perhaps I could have made that more clear.
I can certainly see how you thought it was a straw man argument since it wasn't what you intended on conveying (given your later elaboration). But for my part, I wasn't trying to make you say something I didn't think you were already saying.
Thus my denial of the straw man argument was based on my belief that I was still talking about guild chat and it how /vote mute affects it. In any case, my apologies for the misunderstanding.
@bojan
As if I will take you seriously on these forums ever again, lol.
@savet
You continue to completely ignore Incarnate's current stance on the issue. It's not JUST about relief. It's about affecting behavioral change. If a dog is barking loudly, you don't change it's behavior by putting on headphones so you can't hear it. You change it's behavior by using consequences. With humans consequences often take the form of punishment for exceptionally obnoxious behavior.
This is why nobody's behavior changes when a single person ignores them. The only start to change when they start to realize NOBODY in the entire game can hear them.
On the surface it might seem like I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. But, given *many* of those who have shown support for this issue (although I will admit 'ore and genka are the odd ones out), and given the motivation of Kierky posting this in the first place, I view this suggestion as an attempt by people to expand their ability to be assholes in game. They want to be assholes in game and not be punished for it. That's what I'm fighting against. I do not support abuse of /vote mute whatsoever, but if someone truly deserves it, they should get the full treatment.
@ wally.
I would like to point out that I have been muted a total of twice in the entire time I have played VO.
Once was by a guide (I really was asking for it, ie I asked the guide to mute me)
Once was in the TGFT mute campaign. At the time I was not speaking on 100 at all. I was simply online and shooting people. You tell me this isn't abuse? I was unable to speak because TGFT said so and no other reason. (I am Wrap btw) - in this particular instance if I was still able to chat with the group I was in I would not have filed a ticket.
So yeah. I really want this because I get muted lots...
I would like to point out that I have been muted a total of twice in the entire time I have played VO.
Once was by a guide (I really was asking for it, ie I asked the guide to mute me)
Once was in the TGFT mute campaign. At the time I was not speaking on 100 at all. I was simply online and shooting people. You tell me this isn't abuse? I was unable to speak because TGFT said so and no other reason. (I am Wrap btw) - in this particular instance if I was still able to chat with the group I was in I would not have filed a ticket.
So yeah. I really want this because I get muted lots...
you asked the guide to mute you? why?
Because I had never been muted before?
Oh, I am even worse then yoda, I have been muted only once in my entire vo existence and, as you can guess, it was by TGFT vote mute squad after saying 2 lines of text on ch 100.
So yeah, I am supporting this suggestion because I get muted lots too.
So yeah, I am supporting this suggestion because I get muted lots too.
"You continue to completely ignore Incarnate's current stance on the issue. It's not JUST about relief. It's about affecting behavioral change. If a dog is barking loudly, you don't change it's behavior by putting on headphones so you can't hear it. You change it's behavior by using consequences. With humans consequences often take the form of punishment for exceptionally obnoxious behavior."
You keep ignoring the fact that you are not a moderator.
"This is why nobody's behavior changes when a single person ignores them. The only start to change when they start to realize NOBODY in the entire game can hear them."
Please provide evidence of this assertion.
"On the surface it might seem like I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. But, given *many* of those who have shown support for this issue (although I will admit 'ore and genka are the odd ones out), and given the motivation of Kierky posting this in the first place, I view this suggestion as an attempt by people to expand their ability to be assholes in game. They want to be assholes in game and not be punished for it. That's what I'm fighting against. I do not support abuse of /vote mute whatsoever, but if someone truly deserves it, they should get the full treatment."
Except that successful vote mutes have only been against (as claimed in this thread by the majority) unguilded players who will be unaffected by this suggestion, or abuse of the vote mute, which this suggestion would remedy. Why are you trying to make it easier for abusive people to be assholes in the game?
You keep ignoring the fact that you are not a moderator.
"This is why nobody's behavior changes when a single person ignores them. The only start to change when they start to realize NOBODY in the entire game can hear them."
Please provide evidence of this assertion.
"On the surface it might seem like I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. But, given *many* of those who have shown support for this issue (although I will admit 'ore and genka are the odd ones out), and given the motivation of Kierky posting this in the first place, I view this suggestion as an attempt by people to expand their ability to be assholes in game. They want to be assholes in game and not be punished for it. That's what I'm fighting against. I do not support abuse of /vote mute whatsoever, but if someone truly deserves it, they should get the full treatment."
Except that successful vote mutes have only been against (as claimed in this thread by the majority) unguilded players who will be unaffected by this suggestion, or abuse of the vote mute, which this suggestion would remedy. Why are you trying to make it easier for abusive people to be assholes in the game?
"You keep ignoring the fact that you are not a moderator."
No I don't. The devs provided the common players with a moderation ability, you seem to have a problem with that. Fine. Don't ignore my point though.
Please provide evidence of this assertion.
It's a claim based on common sense.
I think it's a more reasonable position that:
Incarnate's claim of 2 hour muting being generally the most effective shows it's working and should remain that way
more than it is a reasonable position that:
we should allow group and guild chat to prevent the rare abuse perpetrated on someone who is IN a guild or a group.
See operant conditioning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning
Basically you take away their ability to have their voice heard and they realize what they did was out of line. If you let them hear their voice in guild chat, or group chat, you are rewarding them in a sense, and thus negating the behavioral effect a public chat muting has (i.e. they'd be more likely to return to their bad behavior when the mute is lifted). Of course you know this.
Lastly, what successful vote mutes have truly occurred and upon whom are only known by the devs. Taking the teeth out of the /vote mute might limit it's potential abuse, but it also limits the only community moderation tool available to us. There are plenty of posts on these forums about needing more moderation, the last thing we need to do is further limit the moderation ability available to us.
How about this suggestion:
If you are deemed to have abused the /vote mute, you get your vote taken away permanently on all known accounts.
^That's much more effective at fending off any people tempted to mute for silly reasons that have been described above.
No I don't. The devs provided the common players with a moderation ability, you seem to have a problem with that. Fine. Don't ignore my point though.
Please provide evidence of this assertion.
It's a claim based on common sense.
I think it's a more reasonable position that:
Incarnate's claim of 2 hour muting being generally the most effective shows it's working and should remain that way
more than it is a reasonable position that:
we should allow group and guild chat to prevent the rare abuse perpetrated on someone who is IN a guild or a group.
See operant conditioning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning
Basically you take away their ability to have their voice heard and they realize what they did was out of line. If you let them hear their voice in guild chat, or group chat, you are rewarding them in a sense, and thus negating the behavioral effect a public chat muting has (i.e. they'd be more likely to return to their bad behavior when the mute is lifted). Of course you know this.
Lastly, what successful vote mutes have truly occurred and upon whom are only known by the devs. Taking the teeth out of the /vote mute might limit it's potential abuse, but it also limits the only community moderation tool available to us. There are plenty of posts on these forums about needing more moderation, the last thing we need to do is further limit the moderation ability available to us.
How about this suggestion:
If you are deemed to have abused the /vote mute, you get your vote taken away permanently on all known accounts.
^That's much more effective at fending off any people tempted to mute for silly reasons that have been described above.
You seem to have dropped something...
