Shut up ya retarded newb! Even though I agree.

Stop yer whinin'. I pwn you all simply by posting.

Dr. Lector and Nahin Lor's immaturity aside,

lol, we shoot you down, and you call us immature, then post (close to) off topic.

I'd love to see the numbers on what configs are used. How is that stuff tracked?

iceflares are great when ye has a sticky on yer nose bitch, tho ye need to have some extra armour due to collateral damage : p.

And one last thing if yer gettin' pwnd by flares blame only yerself fer flyin' into 'em : p

TRS, weight isn't the only downside to sunflares. Their prox fuse doesn't kick in immediately, which makes them safer when the enemy is very close (less likely to blow yourself up with) but also harder to actually use against somebody who is very close. Either Iceflares or Starflares (maybe both, I never remember) lack that delay and can be used up close, which is a double-edged sword.

Rin, don't you DARE bring facts into this debate. TRS cannot cope with facts (or flares).

What are you, retarded? We've had sunflares far longer than you've been a player (read, since the start of VO) and like any other high end weapon they're popular, but suns are hardly the only S-port weapon players who can pick any weapon they want will choose. Combat "is becoming" something you don't like? You've barely learned how fly, and you're presuming to opine on what you think needs to happen to improve the combat model? Master the existing model first -- and you haven't yet -- then consider whether changes would improve things.

Sunflares have been nerfed twice now; equipping a sunflare currently offers the fewest advantages ever in the history of VO. There's no fucking crisis of combat diversity that's suddenly occuring -- just a sorry mix of nooblets and rusty vets who can't fly for shit whining because they're butt-hurt.

That your idea of facts, lecter? Pure speculation and opinion. The only fact in there is that Sunflares have been nerfed twice now. So what? that doesn't mean we should leave them be if changing them up would make them more interesting.

Here are some facts: You have no idea who I am, you have no information about my level of combat ability and therefore have no license to comment on whether or not I have any expertise in the area. But don't let that stop you from derailing the thread with useless insults instead of actually contributing an idea.

If you don't think sunflares need nerfing, just say that and be done with it.

Same goes for you, Nahin Lor. It's quite clear to me that you think you have some sort of expertise on the matter just because you are on top of the duel ladder or for whatever reason. peytros started this thread because he was hesitant about coming back into the game because he viewed the dual sunflare setup as making things less fun. That is what it ultimately comes down to. But go ahead, call me a newb at having fun too, you might as well.

In either case, I do not suggest that sunflares are broken to the degree that fun is no longer possible without the nerf stick, but I want to see sunflares become widely considered side-grades to the iceflare and the starflare, rather than upgrades.

I am aware of the fuse advantage on iceflares, rin, but I still don't think its enough to persuade people to use them on a regular basis instead of a sunflare. I have made my suggestions as how I think that should occur, incarnate has expressed that he liked the idea, can we please now have discussion on ways we can add diversity to the combat system, instead of this execrable trash about how everyone is a noob and doesn't know what they're talking about?

Patience > Flares

Nerf patience.

Nooo Ghost! Don't give away the magical secrets.

peytros started this thread because he was hesitant about coming back into the game because he viewed the dual sunflare setup as making things less fun

Oh yes, poor Peytros. I am literally laughing out loud at this one. For the record, Pey -- a long-time user of the dual flare valk -- is hesitant about coming back into the game as a very rusty vet who has a big mouth, sensitive ego, and fewer skills than he once had.

P.S. Inc. said your idea for a weapon that adds mass (which is hardly new, if you check the forums) is interesting. You'll note he expressed no opinion that that weapon's eventual existance should involve the modification and/or nerfing of the Sunflare.

And I have no problem with sunflares remaining the same if such a weapon did come into existence.

And frankly I just don't give a damn why pey posted the thread. It's completely immaterial, the idea has merit on its face. You can keep attacking him and myself ad hominem as much as you like, but it doesn't get anything done.

There are a whole bunch of players that I have talked to who would like to see the other flares be made more competitive choices to the sunflare. It's a common complaint as far as I can tell.

I have NO problems with somebody playing the devils advocate on suggestions, but all you're doing is smarmy sarcastic crap that gets nowhere.

I'm going to post some alternative flare types with some numbers here when I get around to it for those players that are willing to listen to an idea and consider it on its merits, rather than psychoanalyse the suggester and mock them sarcastially.

It's cute how you attempt to present a moving target, TRS. Rin and I point out facts you don't like? Copy/paste a larger post of mine addressing a different point! Get ridiculed for citing Peytros's current issues as a basis for there being a problem with flares? Say you don't care about Peytros at all! Get called out for claiming Inc. supports "your idea" when what he said had nothing to do with the nerf you're advocating? Note that your point isn't just about nerfing sunflares! I can get away with my "smarmy sarcastic crap" because, contrary to your attempt to not engage my points, there's a core of valid argument in my posts.

In sum, yawn.

Now, if you'd like to make this a conversation about buffing ice and starflares in such a way as to make them appealing, tactically different choices in the S-port dumbfire explosive weapon niche, then I'm all ears.

But after 7+ years of playing this game, I am fucking sick and tired of the gear solution to skill problems always, always, always being WAAAHHHH, ITEM X IS UNBALANCED BECAUSE PEOPLE USED IT TO MAKE ME GO BOOM! NERF IT, NERF IT NOW FOR THE SAKE OF BALANCE!

Now, if you'd like to make this a conversation about buffing ice and starflares in such a way as to make them appealing, tactically different choices in the S-port dumbfire explosive weapon niche, then I'm all ears.

HALLELUJAH! THANK GOD HE FINALLY GETS IT! That is EXACTLY what I'm trying to do. All this 'presenting a moving target' crap.. seriously.. I don't care what you think my motives are for posting.

I went 10 rounds with Fanty & Mingo the other day and he is like 4th of the duel ladder. I won 5 and so did he. I also regularly train with Footballprophet and I beat most players I encounter who use the dual flares with my dual flares, where you get this idea that I am butt-hurt about losing to dual flares and waving the nerf-stick around because of my own personal dissatisfaction I have no idea, but it's completely incorrect.

I am not advocating a nerf per se, I am advocating diversity. I would say that you need to remove conc from sunflares in order to make starflares a competitive choice. So I guess thats technically a nerf. But I think it would encourage people to mix a starflare in with their sunflare so get conc with a little bit less net damage. Or you can just continue to use dual sunflares with no conq.

I'm making these suggestions because I think it would encourage variety, not because I can't handle flares. Now can we PUHLEASE proceed on that basis..

actually lecter i rarely if ever use duel flares i usually use duel neuts+one sunny my main point is that top level pvp have become over filled with duel flare set ups since they are many advantages to an all energy or single flare set up as i have shown in my various posts showing the pros and cons of both.

your point about AAPs would be valid if AAPs were the only energy weapon being used, which is hardly the case as gauss and neuts are equally (and in the case of neuts more) popular then AAPs so if you could please stop with the wild conjecture and hyperbole that would be cool thx

what about nerfin' Nahin, F&M etc... : p

An honest question (I'm not being sarcastic):

Are you basing the argument of flares being OP off of one ship? The valk? If so I would say the problem is not the flares. I certainly don't think a dual flare vult is overpowered. A dual flare revenant is not overpowered either. IMHO a dual flare valk is not OP, but it sounds like your problem is with the platform, not the weapon.

Flares are deadly, yes. And they should be. Because you only get 12 shots with them. Hence my previous post, Patience > Flares. If my enemy is using primarily flares, I have the option to simply run him out of ammo before even attempting to go for a kill.

The other balancing factor built into flares is the friendly fire aspect. I can use neuts like a surgical tool in a group fight to pick enemies off of my teammates. Good luck doing that with flares.

Sunflares are balanced. If you want more variety, support a buff for the other flares. I say this as a pilot that uses energy only setups probably 75% of the time.

Same goes for you, Nahin Lor. It's quite clear to me that you think you have some sort of expertise on the matter just because you are on top of the duel ladder or for whatever reason.

I have expertise because, believe it or not, I actually fight. Often with and against sunflares.

Buffs for the other flares are alright, I suppose. They're not very often used, in my experience, due to the low velocity causing it to be harder to aim. A little increase in ammo might not be bad for Ice either.

Nah peen can't fight without flares, neither can strat. Valkyrie is powerful, fly one. You can't Nerf weapons just because you suck. You'll notice that the top pilots (besides me because I like to troll and I hate you) aren't in this thread because I can beat you no matter what you fly.

Piss.

Less drunk posting for you, Tumble.

@Ghost: Yeah for what it's worth I agree with you. The valkryie supremacy thing and the points raised in your thread about it and the other thread over in the general forum (http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/26085) are definitely a related issue. But even if that was resolved and serco were given a valkryie style ship, and UIT etc.. etc.., they would still probably all be going for the dual sunflares and blaster layout en-mass.

At some point variety has to mean lots of different ships as well as lots of different weapon types. I think the first step is to give starflares and iceflares some more appeal and bring them up to the level of a true side-grade to sunflares. But I think removing the conc is a good way to do this and give a niche to starflares.

Like I said.. i'll post some stuff later for discussion when I get some sleep. I'm interested to hear everyone's thoughts.

Oh.. with regards to the patience > flares thing, I find if I'm against a valkryie pilot in say a vulture and I actually go to the effort to wait through the 12 rounds and survive, they will typically just run away and re-arm once out of flares. I don't blame the pilot, the way things are setup with a station in every system there's no reason for them not to run away and reload if they can because, well, they just can. It means we need to change the system, not rely on people to do the honourable thing and stick around.