Forums » Suggestions
Except that's not true. Drazed loves the ravens/posis valk; I prefer dual gauss and a single flare, sometimes stars rathe than suns; Space Hunter, annoying as he was, used an energy valk. Etc ad nauseam.
I have only one problem with this. The premise of your statement is that we do indeed have diversity in VO combat and changes are necessary, but all your examples are Valkryies.
It's probably slightly unrelated to the issue at hand, I grant you, but don't you think it would be more interesting if the flares had different effects as per my previous posts, or flares were given more of a niche so that competitive players who use the same flare loadouts again and again are encouraged to diversify?
I'm certainly NOT a carebear.
I have only one problem with this. The premise of your statement is that we do indeed have diversity in VO combat and changes are necessary, but all your examples are Valkryies.
It's probably slightly unrelated to the issue at hand, I grant you, but don't you think it would be more interesting if the flares had different effects as per my previous posts, or flares were given more of a niche so that competitive players who use the same flare loadouts again and again are encouraged to diversify?
I'm certainly NOT a carebear.
I have only one problem with this. The premise of your statement is that we do indeed have diversity in VO combat and changes are necessary, but all your examples are Valkryies.
He was responding to a statement that specifically mentioned Valkyries, so he used examples of players who use Valkyries.
He was responding to a statement that specifically mentioned Valkyries, so he used examples of players who use Valkyries.
You are all a bunch of ninny crybabies, Lecter is right.
All flares were nerfed twice since they exist and so were valkyries.
I doubt any of you crybabies would survive encounter with an old valkyrie equipped with flares & neut.
Original flares were faster, dealt more damage and had more ammo (suns x18, stars x 24, ice x30) and original IDF valkyrie had 245 top speed.
Even when those stats were alive, top VO pilots like Eldrad, Shape, Niki, Ghost, Martin, Gavan and even Yoda used mostly Rev C with neuts 2 and scared the hell out of everyone else.
All flares were nerfed twice since they exist and so were valkyries.
I doubt any of you crybabies would survive encounter with an old valkyrie equipped with flares & neut.
Original flares were faster, dealt more damage and had more ammo (suns x18, stars x 24, ice x30) and original IDF valkyrie had 245 top speed.
Even when those stats were alive, top VO pilots like Eldrad, Shape, Niki, Ghost, Martin, Gavan and even Yoda used mostly Rev C with neuts 2 and scared the hell out of everyone else.
-1
Obviously a weapon that only has 12 ammo (which is retardedly low, since it's in SPACE and you have to go back to a station to reload) is going to be more powerful then any infinite-ammo weapon.
The person using the flares only has 12 chances to hit you with them. That's how the game is played - just try not to take on to the face.
Obviously a weapon that only has 12 ammo (which is retardedly low, since it's in SPACE and you have to go back to a station to reload) is going to be more powerful then any infinite-ammo weapon.
The person using the flares only has 12 chances to hit you with them. That's how the game is played - just try not to take on to the face.
i have never seen him out of a dual flare x-1 ever
I thought you fought with your eyes open.
If I ever need a lawyer I'm calling Lecter. <.<
I thought you fought with your eyes open.
If I ever need a lawyer I'm calling Lecter. <.<
The person using the flares only has 12 chances to hit you with them. That's how the game is played - just try not to take on to the face.
A valid point except for the fact that in order to do this, you basically have to be completely defensive for the entire fight. 1 flare launcher means that the flarer has an easy method of thwarting a charging assault. There's nothing necessarily wrong with this except that the net result is that the only real counter is to bring flares yourself, or have to play extremely defensively and prolong the fight. Which encourages people to just say "screw it, I couldn't be bothered with energy, i'll just bring flares too".
It makes for boring, longer combat. We all like a quick fight so we can get onto the next kill, not to screw around for ages backrolling away with energy just because you forgot to pack flares.
This is not about whether flares are OP. It's about how combat is becoming less interesting because of the lack of diversity due to the massive advantages associated with equipping a sunflare.
A valid point except for the fact that in order to do this, you basically have to be completely defensive for the entire fight. 1 flare launcher means that the flarer has an easy method of thwarting a charging assault. There's nothing necessarily wrong with this except that the net result is that the only real counter is to bring flares yourself, or have to play extremely defensively and prolong the fight. Which encourages people to just say "screw it, I couldn't be bothered with energy, i'll just bring flares too".
It makes for boring, longer combat. We all like a quick fight so we can get onto the next kill, not to screw around for ages backrolling away with energy just because you forgot to pack flares.
This is not about whether flares are OP. It's about how combat is becoming less interesting because of the lack of diversity due to the massive advantages associated with equipping a sunflare.
I'd just like the flarespammers to stop accusing me of backrolling when they're losing in their flare+agt heavy. =)
I'm far from PVP king, but I do ok. I prefer all energy. I've killed dual flare valks with an all energy loadout. They take patience, and are annoying to fight against, because you spend half your time dodging madly.
The times that I'm killed with flares just don't sting as bad, to be honest. The first time I see them launch, I know my opponent has taken a little bit of a shortcut, and I'm at a little bit of a disadvantage. We've made our choices, now it's time to live with it. If I win, it feels that much better.
If you absolutely must nerf them, drop the prox fuses by 5m for each additional flare mounted. You could at least explain it away by saying their fuse sensors interfere with each other or something.
I'm far from PVP king, but I do ok. I prefer all energy. I've killed dual flare valks with an all energy loadout. They take patience, and are annoying to fight against, because you spend half your time dodging madly.
The times that I'm killed with flares just don't sting as bad, to be honest. The first time I see them launch, I know my opponent has taken a little bit of a shortcut, and I'm at a little bit of a disadvantage. We've made our choices, now it's time to live with it. If I win, it feels that much better.
If you absolutely must nerf them, drop the prox fuses by 5m for each additional flare mounted. You could at least explain it away by saying their fuse sensors interfere with each other or something.
There's nothing necessarily wrong with this except that the net result is that the only real counter is to bring flares yourself, or have to play extremely defensively and prolong the fight
Newb. Flares do little to stop an experienced pilot getting close to you, and there's no need to be so defensive when your opponent is using a single flare. Flares in general make for much quicker fights. You just backroll away from flares, when you do decide to fight. Try to speak objectively.
Newb. Flares do little to stop an experienced pilot getting close to you, and there's no need to be so defensive when your opponent is using a single flare. Flares in general make for much quicker fights. You just backroll away from flares, when you do decide to fight. Try to speak objectively.
combat is becoming less interesting because of the lack of diversity due to the massive advantages associated with equipping a sunflare
What are you, retarded? We've had sunflares far longer than you've been a player (read, since the start of VO) and like any other high end weapon they're popular, but suns are hardly the only S-port weapon players who can pick any weapon they want will choose. Combat "is becoming" something you don't like? You've barely learned how fly, and you're presuming to opine on what you think needs to happen to improve the combat model? Master the existing model first -- and you haven't yet -- then consider whether changes would improve things.
Sunflares have been nerfed twice now; equipping a sunflare currently offers the fewest advantages ever in the history of VO. There's no fucking crisis of combat diversity that's suddenly occuring -- just a sorry mix of nooblets and rusty vets who can't fly for shit whining because they're butt-hurt.
What are you, retarded? We've had sunflares far longer than you've been a player (read, since the start of VO) and like any other high end weapon they're popular, but suns are hardly the only S-port weapon players who can pick any weapon they want will choose. Combat "is becoming" something you don't like? You've barely learned how fly, and you're presuming to opine on what you think needs to happen to improve the combat model? Master the existing model first -- and you haven't yet -- then consider whether changes would improve things.
Sunflares have been nerfed twice now; equipping a sunflare currently offers the fewest advantages ever in the history of VO. There's no fucking crisis of combat diversity that's suddenly occuring -- just a sorry mix of nooblets and rusty vets who can't fly for shit whining because they're butt-hurt.
sigh i love when people who don't even play anymore show up in these threads and say "hurr back in my day we were all badass" it is the ultimate rose colored glasses symptom. bojan you and ghost were never that good. everytime i have faught your list of "best vo pvpers of all time" i have kicked their ass.
The people most vehemitly against this are the ones it would obviously affect the most id urge the devs to look past their anecdotal evidence and look at the facts presented on why it is currently better to equip your ship with 20th century technology then it is lasers.
an all energy ship has the disadvantage of having their battery drained and not able to choose when to hit and run. energy has no concusive effect on an enemy nor a prox fuze.
dual/triple flare set ups. gain the ability to extend their prox fuze by a large margin due to how a valk and maud ports are situated. they have a secondary effect of having a concusive force on the targeted ship and other flare which often causes both to be set off. the battery is not drained allowing for hit and run spamming tactics that energy cannot compete with. the only downside (in the case of dual sunnys +neut vs dual neuts + sunny) is 400kg which is marginal for the advantages.
The people most vehemitly against this are the ones it would obviously affect the most id urge the devs to look past their anecdotal evidence and look at the facts presented on why it is currently better to equip your ship with 20th century technology then it is lasers.
an all energy ship has the disadvantage of having their battery drained and not able to choose when to hit and run. energy has no concusive effect on an enemy nor a prox fuze.
dual/triple flare set ups. gain the ability to extend their prox fuze by a large margin due to how a valk and maud ports are situated. they have a secondary effect of having a concusive force on the targeted ship and other flare which often causes both to be set off. the battery is not drained allowing for hit and run spamming tactics that energy cannot compete with. the only downside (in the case of dual sunnys +neut vs dual neuts + sunny) is 400kg which is marginal for the advantages.
I would be completely FOR nerfing flares, cause I never use them and it would give me a rusty advantage. But I don't think a nerf is necessary.
The problems outlined with flares above, aren't problems. If you know how to dodge flares they have no advantage, I don't care if you have 12 or 24 or 6... If you get close enough to your attacker, flares will damage them more then you (and that's if they even set off).
As for energy usage, lasers-vs-flares, etc... If you are having energy usage issues with lasers you are using them wrong, don't hold the fire key down, use burst-shots... your energy will stay topped up, and your shots will do 2|3 x damage, just like a flare... only difference is with energy you have to pick your bursts (but an endless ammount of bursts over time), with flares you also have to pick your shots (but you only get 12 of them).
The nerf stick always has unwanted consequences... Nerf flares and you will need to nerf other crap to keep the balance... Don't disturb the balance please, it is well honed :)
The problems outlined with flares above, aren't problems. If you know how to dodge flares they have no advantage, I don't care if you have 12 or 24 or 6... If you get close enough to your attacker, flares will damage them more then you (and that's if they even set off).
As for energy usage, lasers-vs-flares, etc... If you are having energy usage issues with lasers you are using them wrong, don't hold the fire key down, use burst-shots... your energy will stay topped up, and your shots will do 2|3 x damage, just like a flare... only difference is with energy you have to pick your bursts (but an endless ammount of bursts over time), with flares you also have to pick your shots (but you only get 12 of them).
The nerf stick always has unwanted consequences... Nerf flares and you will need to nerf other crap to keep the balance... Don't disturb the balance please, it is well honed :)
I don't know whether this is needed, seeing as I suck at dodging flares too much to accurately gauge their effectiveness. (Well, I can dodge them just fine if I keep my distance and wait for the opponent to expend all ammunition, but that's boring. Why even bother fighting if I'm just going to run away until he is harmless?)
If it is needed, this is what I would do:
I would give flares the ability to load ammo from the cargo bay, and then nerf the innate cargo capacities of the launchers (to like, 2-5) and decrease their weight as well (since carrying ammo as cargo will add weight). This is something that a lot of people want anyway, so that they can rearm without having to dock. It would also automatically impose a stacking penalty, since all tubes would draw from the same cargo hold, similarly to how energy weapons draw from the same energy pool. Equipping a second tube would only give you a slightly higher capacity, while allowing you to expend them twice as fast. At the same time, depending on how much volume the ammo takes, using a single flare could be buffed, since that tube would have access to as much ammo as the ship can carry (assuming the pilot is willing to weigh it down and give up the option to scoop up as much cargo).
Doing this would also impact the balance between light and heavy ships - having a bigger cargo hold would mean potentially more ammo, and having a heavier base mass would mean noticing less impact from the ammunition's mass. A hornet could carry eight times as much ammo as a vulture, not counting whatever amount of innate capacity is left to the tubes. And a behemoth could carry a monstrous number of jacks.
One interesting thing this would do, in flare-vs-flare fights, is let us instantly rearm with whatever is left of our opponent's ammo (assuming they used the same kind).
If it is needed, this is what I would do:
I would give flares the ability to load ammo from the cargo bay, and then nerf the innate cargo capacities of the launchers (to like, 2-5) and decrease their weight as well (since carrying ammo as cargo will add weight). This is something that a lot of people want anyway, so that they can rearm without having to dock. It would also automatically impose a stacking penalty, since all tubes would draw from the same cargo hold, similarly to how energy weapons draw from the same energy pool. Equipping a second tube would only give you a slightly higher capacity, while allowing you to expend them twice as fast. At the same time, depending on how much volume the ammo takes, using a single flare could be buffed, since that tube would have access to as much ammo as the ship can carry (assuming the pilot is willing to weigh it down and give up the option to scoop up as much cargo).
Doing this would also impact the balance between light and heavy ships - having a bigger cargo hold would mean potentially more ammo, and having a heavier base mass would mean noticing less impact from the ammunition's mass. A hornet could carry eight times as much ammo as a vulture, not counting whatever amount of innate capacity is left to the tubes. And a behemoth could carry a monstrous number of jacks.
One interesting thing this would do, in flare-vs-flare fights, is let us instantly rearm with whatever is left of our opponent's ammo (assuming they used the same kind).
Pizzasgood: I really like that idea (not that it's new), but it would have to be balanced very carefully, and to be honest I don't see it being implemented anytime soon given how much planning, background work, and restructuring it would involve, I think.
+1 for ridding VO of the dual flare setups. A single flare on any ship should be the limit. When dual flares are used the battle is short and the outcome is the one that gets lucky.
I shouldn't have to back roll constantly to win a battle. If dual flares are not banned then +1 for the amount of flares in the launcher bieng decreased.
Dual flares are overwhelming for pirates killing newbs.
I am with Peytros on this issue and this in itself is a rare event.
I shouldn't have to back roll constantly to win a battle. If dual flares are not banned then +1 for the amount of flares in the launcher bieng decreased.
Dual flares are overwhelming for pirates killing newbs.
I am with Peytros on this issue and this in itself is a rare event.
wouldnt it be simpler just to increase the grid power to 10 on all flare based weapons?
There are several areas that weapons and ships need balancing - its a moving target.
There are several areas that weapons and ships need balancing - its a moving target.
You absolutely do not have to backroll to defeat flares. In fact, rolling makes you more susceptible to flares. I might suck at dealing with them but I have at least learned that much. Stop rolling and strafe. When the flares are launched, strafe such that you are out of their prox range. Rolling makes it harder to judge where the flares are going, and moves you in an arc which is less effective than a straight line at getting you the heck out of the way. Rolling can also make your motions more predictable. Humans are not bots, and the smarter ones will aim their flares such that you roll right into them.
The other option, as has been stated, is to get very close. That gives you several bonuses - some models of flare don't arm their prox fuse immediately, so being inside that range is a big help. Small movements up close have a larger impact on how far the enemy has to turn to track you than large movements far away. Finally, if there is enough difference in maneuverability between your two ships (or between the pilots' skills), you might be able to stay out of the enemy's crosshairs for a significant period of time, shooting him in the side or back at your leisure. Getting close in the first place is the difficult part, especially if they're in a nimble ship.
The other option, as has been stated, is to get very close. That gives you several bonuses - some models of flare don't arm their prox fuse immediately, so being inside that range is a big help. Small movements up close have a larger impact on how far the enemy has to turn to track you than large movements far away. Finally, if there is enough difference in maneuverability between your two ships (or between the pilots' skills), you might be able to stay out of the enemy's crosshairs for a significant period of time, shooting him in the side or back at your leisure. Getting close in the first place is the difficult part, especially if they're in a nimble ship.
bloody fecking carebears : p
ye can nerf the flares when ye nerf those ones too: raven, lenb, app, GAT hive, neut III, gauss III @ 180m/s max 250m range : p
then every one should equip only training blasters : ]
Let's just ban more than one weapon per ship. Those dual AAPs are totally unfair.
I am aware of this thread, and will check back, although I'm not going to say a lot right now. There are often a lot of "perceptions" about "what everyone is using", and I'd like to crunch some of our actual logged history data to see whether that bears out at all. Individual perceptions can sometimes skew pretty strongly from actual realities of aggregated usage.
I'm generally open to evolving the game and changing things, and I welcome continued feedback on this. But I won't approach it lightly. Like Lecter says, Flares have been through the nerf machine a couple of times already, and I really haven't see them as too terrible in their current state. There is clearly a difference in defensive tactics that are required, vs energy, in terms of standoff distance and randomness of motion. But, I have trouble seeing that as a bad thing. In fact, I thought that was a form of tactical diversity, enriching the game.
Still, I'm not ruling anything out and I'm open to more feedback and clearly written points.
There have been some interesting and intriguing suggestions on here for different ways to mitigate things. Regardless of flare stuff, I love the thought about a weapon that increases the mass of its target by inflicting shrapnel or limpet magets or something onto them. So, please keep the feedback coming, preferably with a minimum of melodramatic name-calling.. I'll get some real-world history data sometime soon, and we can go from there.
I'm generally open to evolving the game and changing things, and I welcome continued feedback on this. But I won't approach it lightly. Like Lecter says, Flares have been through the nerf machine a couple of times already, and I really haven't see them as too terrible in their current state. There is clearly a difference in defensive tactics that are required, vs energy, in terms of standoff distance and randomness of motion. But, I have trouble seeing that as a bad thing. In fact, I thought that was a form of tactical diversity, enriching the game.
Still, I'm not ruling anything out and I'm open to more feedback and clearly written points.
There have been some interesting and intriguing suggestions on here for different ways to mitigate things. Regardless of flare stuff, I love the thought about a weapon that increases the mass of its target by inflicting shrapnel or limpet magets or something onto them. So, please keep the feedback coming, preferably with a minimum of melodramatic name-calling.. I'll get some real-world history data sometime soon, and we can go from there.
I love the thought about a weapon that increases the mass of its target by inflicting shrapnel or limpet magets or something onto them. So, please keep the feedback coming
/me wins thread!
Dr. Lector and Nahin Lor's immaturity aside, I wouldn't actually have a problem with dual flare layouts if it wasn't just always sunflare vs sunflare. If we had mixed flare layouts, like Iceflares that added weight and other cool effects that you could mix together, you could customize your layout to suit your style, or counter another style. I think the issue is that sunflares have the best of all worlds with damage and conc and the only downside to that, the weight, really doesn't deter people enough from choosing other flare types.
Anyway, it doesn't matter what I say, people are still going to call me a newb and a retard and whatnot even though I've been playing since <redacted>.
/me wins thread!
Dr. Lector and Nahin Lor's immaturity aside, I wouldn't actually have a problem with dual flare layouts if it wasn't just always sunflare vs sunflare. If we had mixed flare layouts, like Iceflares that added weight and other cool effects that you could mix together, you could customize your layout to suit your style, or counter another style. I think the issue is that sunflares have the best of all worlds with damage and conc and the only downside to that, the weight, really doesn't deter people enough from choosing other flare types.
Anyway, it doesn't matter what I say, people are still going to call me a newb and a retard and whatnot even though I've been playing since <redacted>.