Forums » Suggestions
Ug, Phaser how come you always raise good points?
Yeah, crafting a new missile launcher would (I think) necessarily involve making a new missile. Or rocket. Or Railgun Xith Pellet. Or whatever. Hrm.
Would those "special" ammo loads be at every station? I think not.
Perhaps every "class" of launcher would be able to use the "lower-level" ammo, but the effect would be that of a standard missile/rocket.
We can go back to our "quality" idea:
You craft up a 90% quality Sunflare Mk. III Launcher, that uses Sunflare Mk. III Rockets (Also at 90% quality). However all your crafting and inventory of these things are at Latos N-2. You're currently at Azek I-4 and are out of sunflares.
You can use the "normal" sunflares in your Mk. III launcher. Let's just say for example that the normal quality level of pre-made sunflares is 75%.
However, say someone else who has their home base at Azek I-4 is a very advanced crafter-type and has made Sunflare Mk. V's, and they are at 95% quality.
You could not use those as ammo because their tech level or quality ranking is too high to go in your lower-quailty launcher. You could purchase them, but they would be treated as cargo.
We could do the same thing with levels instead of quality, but I think you get the drift. Would that be harder to implement?
I think the same would apply to license levels. You could buy something that you could not use, due to your license levels being too low. For example, a rich level 1 n00b COULD buy a Valkyrie, but he could not use it until he got to level 8 pilot. It would sit in storage until he was able to use it.
Yeah, crafting a new missile launcher would (I think) necessarily involve making a new missile. Or rocket. Or Railgun Xith Pellet. Or whatever. Hrm.
Would those "special" ammo loads be at every station? I think not.
Perhaps every "class" of launcher would be able to use the "lower-level" ammo, but the effect would be that of a standard missile/rocket.
We can go back to our "quality" idea:
You craft up a 90% quality Sunflare Mk. III Launcher, that uses Sunflare Mk. III Rockets (Also at 90% quality). However all your crafting and inventory of these things are at Latos N-2. You're currently at Azek I-4 and are out of sunflares.
You can use the "normal" sunflares in your Mk. III launcher. Let's just say for example that the normal quality level of pre-made sunflares is 75%.
However, say someone else who has their home base at Azek I-4 is a very advanced crafter-type and has made Sunflare Mk. V's, and they are at 95% quality.
You could not use those as ammo because their tech level or quality ranking is too high to go in your lower-quailty launcher. You could purchase them, but they would be treated as cargo.
We could do the same thing with levels instead of quality, but I think you get the drift. Would that be harder to implement?
I think the same would apply to license levels. You could buy something that you could not use, due to your license levels being too low. For example, a rich level 1 n00b COULD buy a Valkyrie, but he could not use it until he got to level 8 pilot. It would sit in storage until he was able to use it.
Ammo can put more diversity to weapons.
E.g.: plasma weapon - a laser owen evaporates the 'bullet' and the plasma is acelerated by electro-magnetic field.
-- Light, low boiling temperature 'bullet' will produce lot of plasma. Its lethal on short range but spreads too wide at long range so have minimal effect.
-- plasma from heave 'bullet' has longer range and spreads minimally
-- metal 'bullet' has higher muzzle velocity but causes extra heat so consumes more energy.
Regards,
Darkwood
E.g.: plasma weapon - a laser owen evaporates the 'bullet' and the plasma is acelerated by electro-magnetic field.
-- Light, low boiling temperature 'bullet' will produce lot of plasma. Its lethal on short range but spreads too wide at long range so have minimal effect.
-- plasma from heave 'bullet' has longer range and spreads minimally
-- metal 'bullet' has higher muzzle velocity but causes extra heat so consumes more energy.
Regards,
Darkwood
@Phaser: Parrots are cool :p
In general I think you're right that continually adding new weapons is a bad thing. But on the other hand it would be cool if it was possible for a faction to gain a (temporary) technological advantage in some field. That would open up a whole range of new missions (like "steal the tech")
I think it's doable. An important aspect would be if old tech was simply fased out. Once a station manages to get a steady supply of V2's, they simply stop producing V1's. Newbies will allways use the slightly older stuff, but the slightly older stuff will still be updated once something better becomes commonly available.
Maybe at some point in time the serco "invent" a new version of the neutron blaster. It won't be long till some trader steals the secret (or offers a mission for someone to steal it for him) and stars selling the new gun in his base in UIT space (making a hefty profit in the process and probably getting himself hated by the Serco).
A bit later some Itany scientist gets his hands on a sample, reverse engineers it and makes it available to all Itani stations.
A month later every station in the galaxy is selling the new neutron blaster, all old versions are no longer produced and the old stock gets dumped for a low price to every newby that wants a gun.
Another month later noone will even remember the old V1 ever existed. Three years later a few collectors items make a hefty price at a public auction.
This would add a great dynamic aspect to the trade goods themselves.
It doesn't have to use a 'tech tree' thing so it doesn't involve any extra time for the dev's. There would have to be some sort of effort for the player to put into though.
Do note that this doesn't have to exclude the idea of user-crafted weapons that have slightly different stats.
In general I think you're right that continually adding new weapons is a bad thing. But on the other hand it would be cool if it was possible for a faction to gain a (temporary) technological advantage in some field. That would open up a whole range of new missions (like "steal the tech")
I think it's doable. An important aspect would be if old tech was simply fased out. Once a station manages to get a steady supply of V2's, they simply stop producing V1's. Newbies will allways use the slightly older stuff, but the slightly older stuff will still be updated once something better becomes commonly available.
Maybe at some point in time the serco "invent" a new version of the neutron blaster. It won't be long till some trader steals the secret (or offers a mission for someone to steal it for him) and stars selling the new gun in his base in UIT space (making a hefty profit in the process and probably getting himself hated by the Serco).
A bit later some Itany scientist gets his hands on a sample, reverse engineers it and makes it available to all Itani stations.
A month later every station in the galaxy is selling the new neutron blaster, all old versions are no longer produced and the old stock gets dumped for a low price to every newby that wants a gun.
Another month later noone will even remember the old V1 ever existed. Three years later a few collectors items make a hefty price at a public auction.
This would add a great dynamic aspect to the trade goods themselves.
It doesn't have to use a 'tech tree' thing so it doesn't involve any extra time for the dev's. There would have to be some sort of effort for the player to put into though.
Do note that this doesn't have to exclude the idea of user-crafted weapons that have slightly different stats.
Hmm, I could see that working I suppose. I definitely like the idea of using those blueprint data pads to represent weapon designs, allowing for new tech to be stolen...
One thing tho, if ore (/widgets) is the resource to be used in crafting, and we're assuming V2 requires more rare ore/widgets than V1, then it's going to get continually more difficult to craft items since rare ore is going to stay rare. Unless of course the 'recipes' for items changed as new tech becomes available.
Also, if our weapons get more powerful over time, then our ships are going to die faster... the extreme end meaning all weapons eventually become 1 hit kills. If our ship designs also improve to match weaponry, then why have advancing tech in the first place? A 500 dmg blaster hit on a 5k hull ship is the same as a 1k dmg blaster hit on a 10k hull ship...
I guess it allows for the possibility of one faction temporarily gaining the advantage by being the first to come up with an improved design...
One thing tho, if ore (/widgets) is the resource to be used in crafting, and we're assuming V2 requires more rare ore/widgets than V1, then it's going to get continually more difficult to craft items since rare ore is going to stay rare. Unless of course the 'recipes' for items changed as new tech becomes available.
Also, if our weapons get more powerful over time, then our ships are going to die faster... the extreme end meaning all weapons eventually become 1 hit kills. If our ship designs also improve to match weaponry, then why have advancing tech in the first place? A 500 dmg blaster hit on a 5k hull ship is the same as a 1k dmg blaster hit on a 10k hull ship...
I guess it allows for the possibility of one faction temporarily gaining the advantage by being the first to come up with an improved design...
They don't neccecerily need to require more ingredients, but maybe just a better manufacturing plant. Or more ore unless you have a better manufacturing plant.
Unless ore "widgets" are also upgradable using the same system... If a mining beam "V2" makes ore widgets "V2" that are "15% better" then V1 you might need 15% less of those V2 ore widgets in your crafting.
Eventually noone will use the old mining beams and V2 ore becomes the norm.
To polarise things more between the nations, Serco could have a bonus when designing new armour, Itani when designing weapons and UIT when designing engines.
[edit]
The reason to keep improving? Well, if the Serco keep improving, the Itani will HAVE to match, or be wiped out. Plus, it adds a dynamic element. It allows for "steal the tech" missions, or "destroy the research facility". Both Itani and Serco will constantly have to battle to avoid becoming obsolete. Either by improving their own designs (or stealing it from someone else), or making sure the other side doesn't improve theirs.
Unless ore "widgets" are also upgradable using the same system... If a mining beam "V2" makes ore widgets "V2" that are "15% better" then V1 you might need 15% less of those V2 ore widgets in your crafting.
Eventually noone will use the old mining beams and V2 ore becomes the norm.
To polarise things more between the nations, Serco could have a bonus when designing new armour, Itani when designing weapons and UIT when designing engines.
[edit]
The reason to keep improving? Well, if the Serco keep improving, the Itani will HAVE to match, or be wiped out. Plus, it adds a dynamic element. It allows for "steal the tech" missions, or "destroy the research facility". Both Itani and Serco will constantly have to battle to avoid becoming obsolete. Either by improving their own designs (or stealing it from someone else), or making sure the other side doesn't improve theirs.
At first, I have to apologize in advance, as I didn' read through all the 7 pages of posts. So, maybe my point already came up. If so, forget about this post.
Here comes the point: I think it's pretty artificial to make mining and such things mandatory for constructing/obtaining items like ships and so forth. You should always be able to actually just buy an item, even though it might be more expensive compared to getting an item by providing the resources to construct it.
/maso
Here comes the point: I think it's pretty artificial to make mining and such things mandatory for constructing/obtaining items like ships and so forth. You should always be able to actually just buy an item, even though it might be more expensive compared to getting an item by providing the resources to construct it.
/maso
Heya Maso - Here's how I see it:
The stations will always be crafting things using their own manufacturing space and their own equipment, that is how they will create items from ores and other raw materials.
I assume that only stations orbiting (inhabited?) planets will be able to produce things like medicine, lux goods, wood, etc. Deep-space stations would have no way to make wood unless it was synthwood or something. They could import from a station orbiting a planet, but they could not originate the good.
However, I think that stations would be able to "run out" of things if pirates or Hive bots interrupted the flow of goods. And I don't think that is a BAD thing at all, it lends a great deal of realism to the game. (As long as you can't get "stranded" at a station without ships or steel or XiRite alloy. I guess an EC-88 will always have to be available. Or possibly a ferry to other stations...)
Purchasing the "standard" item that is crafted by the station would certainly always be posssible. I envision a "Station A.I." that keeps track of what is purchased there over a week and plans to obtain the necessary materials accordingly, offering trade and mining missions to players first and then spawning NPC traders to do the work if no player takes the job. Of course, stations would try to maintain a certain level of all kinds of goods, just in case something unexpected happens.
My hope is that soon the "standard" items will be treated with disdain because the player-crafted items will be much more useful/desirable.
The stations will always be crafting things using their own manufacturing space and their own equipment, that is how they will create items from ores and other raw materials.
I assume that only stations orbiting (inhabited?) planets will be able to produce things like medicine, lux goods, wood, etc. Deep-space stations would have no way to make wood unless it was synthwood or something. They could import from a station orbiting a planet, but they could not originate the good.
However, I think that stations would be able to "run out" of things if pirates or Hive bots interrupted the flow of goods. And I don't think that is a BAD thing at all, it lends a great deal of realism to the game. (As long as you can't get "stranded" at a station without ships or steel or XiRite alloy. I guess an EC-88 will always have to be available. Or possibly a ferry to other stations...)
Purchasing the "standard" item that is crafted by the station would certainly always be posssible. I envision a "Station A.I." that keeps track of what is purchased there over a week and plans to obtain the necessary materials accordingly, offering trade and mining missions to players first and then spawning NPC traders to do the work if no player takes the job. Of course, stations would try to maintain a certain level of all kinds of goods, just in case something unexpected happens.
My hope is that soon the "standard" items will be treated with disdain because the player-crafted items will be much more useful/desirable.
Phaser said: One thing tho, if ore (/widgets) is the resource to be used in crafting, and we're assuming V2 requires more rare ore/widgets than V1, then it's going to get continually more difficult to craft items since rare ore is going to stay rare. Unless of course the 'recipes' for items changed as new tech becomes available.
Exactly. Higher-quailty weapons will be more scarce, more expensive, and harder to craft. The "basic" weapons, widgets, and ships will ALWAYS be around because making nothing but the "uber" versions would be time and cost-prohibitive.
But I think that the easiest way to afford balance would be to use Phaser's "sliders" idea, implemented with the "levels" of crafting equipment or "levels" of stations where the crafting is done. That way we don't have mudflation, and we don't have a cabal of ultra-rich-and-powerful folks controlling everything. AND we don't have to worry about n00bs being overwhelmed with ultra-powerful items (that all the vets would have) right off the bat.
Exactly. Higher-quailty weapons will be more scarce, more expensive, and harder to craft. The "basic" weapons, widgets, and ships will ALWAYS be around because making nothing but the "uber" versions would be time and cost-prohibitive.
But I think that the easiest way to afford balance would be to use Phaser's "sliders" idea, implemented with the "levels" of crafting equipment or "levels" of stations where the crafting is done. That way we don't have mudflation, and we don't have a cabal of ultra-rich-and-powerful folks controlling everything. AND we don't have to worry about n00bs being overwhelmed with ultra-powerful items (that all the vets would have) right off the bat.
/me casts resurrect on topic...
I have an insanely long post, so I am going to break it up into parts.
First, I have some general comments/responses to the rest of the thread: I really want to try and keep anything from outright spawning except for extreme circumstances (the Hive is actually entirely wiped out, all Itani SFs have died, all Serco BP ships have died, etc.). I do not especially like the idea of levels. I really want to avoid items with a quality level for two reason: 1] that requires another number for EVERY ITEM IN THE GAME which the servers must keep track of; 2] if the difference in quality is insignificant (+5 damage) then the system will be burdened by additional complexity and no one will care, otherwise if the difference is significant (+200 damage) then anyone wishing to have a fair chance at PvP will HAVE to have the best equipment available or be at a significant disadvantage. I think it is better to simply add some additional equipment at the higher levels rather than to simply multiply the number of weapon choices (>90% of which will be BAD). Stations must be destroyable for many reasons, my favorite being that it is realistic, reasonable, and interesting. However, I totally agree with tkjode that there should be some form of station insurance available.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406?page=3#135237
I also believe that individual players AND guilds should both be able to construct and own stations. Stations should be appropriately expensive and, within nation-claimed space, require something like a permit; otherwise, stations may be built freely (and dangerously) given the resources are presented and the owner (or any guild member) has license levels 15 Trading + 15 Mining (thus a guild would have a much easier time since 1 person could have trading and another mining). However, I also agree with LeberMac that stations should never be allowed in wormhole sectors (gravitational disturbances) and that multiple stations should be allowed in each sector (perhaps max 16 or 32).
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406?page=4#135265
If a station’s cost per day ever cannot be met, it will take 20% damage each day and, if the station’s crew cost per day ever cannot be met, it will become non-operational in 2 hours (at which point an NPC transport arrives to rescue the starving crew) and subsequently take damage as though the station cost was not met. This decay will continue until the station disintegrates or both crew and materials are supplied to the station such that it can restart operations and commence with maintenance and repairs.
I want to avoid scavenging beyond taking dropped cargo and some scrap metal in order to let the economic system as a whole have a cycle. Since there is an infinite ore input, you HAVE to have an infinite loss output (ships are completely dead) or else you will generate mind numbing rates of inflation (and you thought it was bad now). Buildings are built, are maintained, decay, and collapse; never have I seen or heard of a construction SHRINKING, that is so unrealistic it hurts my head. I hate the idea of a tech tree; this is a MMORPG, not MOO3, despite the fact that both start with ‘M’. All completely new items (e.g. blueprints for Gauss Mk 5, not 5000) should be started by the Devs for balance and testing purposes. Station growth should not have levels, artificial limits, or anything resembling the spirit of either. Please stop with the posts about items having percentages or qualities or points! The game does not need, nor would it benefit from having, 50 or 5000 new useless craftable items. This is not a cooking game; science tells exactly how to make A with B, so let the engineer do it for you. Players are PILOTS, trading, mining, and pirating on the side, not landlubber 8:00-5:00 workers.
First, I have some general comments/responses to the rest of the thread: I really want to try and keep anything from outright spawning except for extreme circumstances (the Hive is actually entirely wiped out, all Itani SFs have died, all Serco BP ships have died, etc.). I do not especially like the idea of levels. I really want to avoid items with a quality level for two reason: 1] that requires another number for EVERY ITEM IN THE GAME which the servers must keep track of; 2] if the difference in quality is insignificant (+5 damage) then the system will be burdened by additional complexity and no one will care, otherwise if the difference is significant (+200 damage) then anyone wishing to have a fair chance at PvP will HAVE to have the best equipment available or be at a significant disadvantage. I think it is better to simply add some additional equipment at the higher levels rather than to simply multiply the number of weapon choices (>90% of which will be BAD). Stations must be destroyable for many reasons, my favorite being that it is realistic, reasonable, and interesting. However, I totally agree with tkjode that there should be some form of station insurance available.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406?page=3#135237
I also believe that individual players AND guilds should both be able to construct and own stations. Stations should be appropriately expensive and, within nation-claimed space, require something like a permit; otherwise, stations may be built freely (and dangerously) given the resources are presented and the owner (or any guild member) has license levels 15 Trading + 15 Mining (thus a guild would have a much easier time since 1 person could have trading and another mining). However, I also agree with LeberMac that stations should never be allowed in wormhole sectors (gravitational disturbances) and that multiple stations should be allowed in each sector (perhaps max 16 or 32).
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406?page=4#135265
If a station’s cost per day ever cannot be met, it will take 20% damage each day and, if the station’s crew cost per day ever cannot be met, it will become non-operational in 2 hours (at which point an NPC transport arrives to rescue the starving crew) and subsequently take damage as though the station cost was not met. This decay will continue until the station disintegrates or both crew and materials are supplied to the station such that it can restart operations and commence with maintenance and repairs.
I want to avoid scavenging beyond taking dropped cargo and some scrap metal in order to let the economic system as a whole have a cycle. Since there is an infinite ore input, you HAVE to have an infinite loss output (ships are completely dead) or else you will generate mind numbing rates of inflation (and you thought it was bad now). Buildings are built, are maintained, decay, and collapse; never have I seen or heard of a construction SHRINKING, that is so unrealistic it hurts my head. I hate the idea of a tech tree; this is a MMORPG, not MOO3, despite the fact that both start with ‘M’. All completely new items (e.g. blueprints for Gauss Mk 5, not 5000) should be started by the Devs for balance and testing purposes. Station growth should not have levels, artificial limits, or anything resembling the spirit of either. Please stop with the posts about items having percentages or qualities or points! The game does not need, nor would it benefit from having, 50 or 5000 new useless craftable items. This is not a cooking game; science tells exactly how to make A with B, so let the engineer do it for you. Players are PILOTS, trading, mining, and pirating on the side, not landlubber 8:00-5:00 workers.
I would like to now continue by pointing out that almost everything in this thread is a huge addition and change to the universe. As such, I make my suggestion post as a way to “simply” (least complicatedly..???) switch Vendetta over to a crafting and free market supply & demand economic system. As such, all notes/statements about station hit points, defensive turrets, and anything non-essential to crafting, supply, or demand should be considered strictly secondary.
At the very bottom of my post I have attempted to put my semi-complete suggested crafting economic system spec.
* STATIONS *
Spec:
All stations begin with a “Station” module. This has 1 docking port, 1 undocking port, 1-2 static defense turret(s), the ability to self-repair at a rate of 1% of total hit points per hour, and the ability to build facilities. Each module of a station has its own hit points, and can be seen and targeted independently. If the primary “Station” module is destroyed, the whole station goes with it. However, the primary station module has its hit points increased by 20% of the value of any attached modules. Facilities are located inside station modules and cannot operate (pause all current activity, no new activity may be initiated) while the module is below 90% hit points. Also, all stations have a bar and unlimited cargo and docking space.
Explanation:
This way, all stations begin as small and generalized as possible (to help keep the initial cost down) – nothing more than a space-based Joe’s (re-hydrated tofu) Crab Shack. Also, players could use hit-and-run tactics to attempt to selectively damage a station instead of needing to destroy the whole thing for any effect. The universal bar really seems like a good idea. The unlimited space means fewer numbers to keep track of, fewer checks that need to be made, and a simplicity that simply appeals to me.
Also, there should be station alliances which may be bought. For example, my little restaurant in nowhere Divinia should, for a price, be able to ally itself with the Itani Nation and receive the protection of its strike forces and armada. However, you can only ally with a faction with its own station in the same or adjacent system. This would allow fledging stations a reasonable degree of protection from destruction as well as provide a way to allow border shifts and player-created factions (I’m thinking as an evolution from a really large guild) later on.
* Facilities
Spec:
Some facilities (primarily the research and manufacturing) will be “expandable”, meaning that modules can be built with multiple of them and that identical facilities in additional modules work together for a cumulative effect. For example, John Doe runs a station with 2 refining modules, one with 1 common ore refining facility (“expandable”), one with 3 common ore refining facilities, and both have an ore trading facility (not “expandable”). The whole station would operate as though it had 4 common ore refining facilities and 1 ore trading facility (the second in the other module acts as a back-up in case the other is destroyed).
Explanation:
This way players can increase production through-put and the speed of research, as well as maintain backup systems if they have the resources.
By the way, I like CrippledPidgeon’s Guild hall idea and have thus incorporated it as a facility. http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406?page=2#134831
* RESEARCH *
Spec:
Mostly, this would be many small-percentage, conversion efficiency improvement projects, with specialty projects available whenever the Devs want to introduce something new. Whenever trade goods are produced with a station’s facilities, a conversion take.
Explanation:
Also, one could not reasonably create an uber-station of everything because research speed increases with decreasing marginal returns on investment, thus getting awesome/the best conversion efficiencies for every item facility would be insanely expensive and simply take too long. I think it would take something like 5-8 months of constant top-level research to create an uber-station AFTER all the modules and facilities had been constructed, which itself would take 2-4 months and be very expensive.
Also, since Phaserlight is addicted to the idea of a VO mini-game, I will suggest that creating prototypes and blueprints is the best possible place for such a thing. I think relatively few people would use it, but then again relatively few highly trained pilots will also be interested in tinkering instead of simply getting rich, getting by, or blowing stuff up.
* TRADE GOODS *
Spec:
Trade goods (except for basic, mined ores) will all require certain other trade goods as components. Station facilities will be able to change components into finished goods at conversion efficiencies set by the facility type and completed research projects.
A station’s production throughput for any particular item will be on a units/hour basis based on the number and level/quality of the facilities available. All production orders will be done strictly as a queue system and will have a confirmation window presenting the total cost, total output, and the total time for the order.
Explanation:
I really want to stay away from items with a quality level for two reason: 1] that requires another number for EVERY ITEM IN THE GAME which the servers must keep track of; 2] if the difference in quality is insignificant (+5 damage) then the system will be burdened by additional complexity and no one will care, otherwise if the difference is significant (+200 damage) then anyone wishing to have a fair chance at PvP will HAVE to have the best equipment available or be at a significant disadvantage. I think it is better to simply add some additional equipment at the higher levels rather than to simply multiply the number of weapon choices (>90% of which will be BAD).
Having throughput lends a bit of realism and strategy to the game. Bob’s personal station would likely always only producing Bob’s stuff, whereas Borb’s Battery Bazaar would be large enough to fill most customers orders simultaneously, for a price. Also, with a higher throughput you have a better chance of being able to produce items at the ideal number/production run (which you can figure out using the conversion efficiency and component ratio). Additionally, there could/should be a built-in conversion efficiency bonus for 100+ and 1000+ production orders.
I would note that you have to both have the facilities and the BLUEPRINTS to create any item. As such, I think that almost no player should be able to construct Valkyries or Promethei. Also, high-level (faction or license) items will be VERY hard to get the blueprints for.
On a final note, I HATE the idea of twitch-based crafting. This is supposed to be a Sci-Fi game; production really OUGHT to be automated by now. I also wish to note that the idea that highly skilled pilots are also the inventors and/or industrial workers seems rather, well, stupid.
* IMPORTANT DISCUSSION POINTS *
Could unlimited cargo and docking space in stations be abused in a meaningful (breaking the laws of physics does not count), game-affecting way?
With research moved to a strictly supporting role, “Research Only” stations would be eliminated. Is this a problem or does anyone have a good work-around?
By the way, thank you very much to everyone who has posted on this thread as reading the comments has helped me think about this. I have this almost completely thought out in my head, so please ask if you have any questions that I forgot to ask myself and answer within.
My crafting system stuff is now mostly in this MS Excel file:
http://henson.kzoo.edu/~k01sr02/VO_Economy_Parts.xls
At the very bottom of my post I have attempted to put my semi-complete suggested crafting economic system spec.
* STATIONS *
Spec:
All stations begin with a “Station” module. This has 1 docking port, 1 undocking port, 1-2 static defense turret(s), the ability to self-repair at a rate of 1% of total hit points per hour, and the ability to build facilities. Each module of a station has its own hit points, and can be seen and targeted independently. If the primary “Station” module is destroyed, the whole station goes with it. However, the primary station module has its hit points increased by 20% of the value of any attached modules. Facilities are located inside station modules and cannot operate (pause all current activity, no new activity may be initiated) while the module is below 90% hit points. Also, all stations have a bar and unlimited cargo and docking space.
Explanation:
This way, all stations begin as small and generalized as possible (to help keep the initial cost down) – nothing more than a space-based Joe’s (re-hydrated tofu) Crab Shack. Also, players could use hit-and-run tactics to attempt to selectively damage a station instead of needing to destroy the whole thing for any effect. The universal bar really seems like a good idea. The unlimited space means fewer numbers to keep track of, fewer checks that need to be made, and a simplicity that simply appeals to me.
Also, there should be station alliances which may be bought. For example, my little restaurant in nowhere Divinia should, for a price, be able to ally itself with the Itani Nation and receive the protection of its strike forces and armada. However, you can only ally with a faction with its own station in the same or adjacent system. This would allow fledging stations a reasonable degree of protection from destruction as well as provide a way to allow border shifts and player-created factions (I’m thinking as an evolution from a really large guild) later on.
* Facilities
Spec:
Some facilities (primarily the research and manufacturing) will be “expandable”, meaning that modules can be built with multiple of them and that identical facilities in additional modules work together for a cumulative effect. For example, John Doe runs a station with 2 refining modules, one with 1 common ore refining facility (“expandable”), one with 3 common ore refining facilities, and both have an ore trading facility (not “expandable”). The whole station would operate as though it had 4 common ore refining facilities and 1 ore trading facility (the second in the other module acts as a back-up in case the other is destroyed).
Explanation:
This way players can increase production through-put and the speed of research, as well as maintain backup systems if they have the resources.
By the way, I like CrippledPidgeon’s Guild hall idea and have thus incorporated it as a facility. http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406?page=2#134831
* RESEARCH *
Spec:
Mostly, this would be many small-percentage, conversion efficiency improvement projects, with specialty projects available whenever the Devs want to introduce something new. Whenever trade goods are produced with a station’s facilities, a conversion take.
Explanation:
Also, one could not reasonably create an uber-station of everything because research speed increases with decreasing marginal returns on investment, thus getting awesome/the best conversion efficiencies for every item facility would be insanely expensive and simply take too long. I think it would take something like 5-8 months of constant top-level research to create an uber-station AFTER all the modules and facilities had been constructed, which itself would take 2-4 months and be very expensive.
Also, since Phaserlight is addicted to the idea of a VO mini-game, I will suggest that creating prototypes and blueprints is the best possible place for such a thing. I think relatively few people would use it, but then again relatively few highly trained pilots will also be interested in tinkering instead of simply getting rich, getting by, or blowing stuff up.
* TRADE GOODS *
Spec:
Trade goods (except for basic, mined ores) will all require certain other trade goods as components. Station facilities will be able to change components into finished goods at conversion efficiencies set by the facility type and completed research projects.
A station’s production throughput for any particular item will be on a units/hour basis based on the number and level/quality of the facilities available. All production orders will be done strictly as a queue system and will have a confirmation window presenting the total cost, total output, and the total time for the order.
Explanation:
I really want to stay away from items with a quality level for two reason: 1] that requires another number for EVERY ITEM IN THE GAME which the servers must keep track of; 2] if the difference in quality is insignificant (+5 damage) then the system will be burdened by additional complexity and no one will care, otherwise if the difference is significant (+200 damage) then anyone wishing to have a fair chance at PvP will HAVE to have the best equipment available or be at a significant disadvantage. I think it is better to simply add some additional equipment at the higher levels rather than to simply multiply the number of weapon choices (>90% of which will be BAD).
Having throughput lends a bit of realism and strategy to the game. Bob’s personal station would likely always only producing Bob’s stuff, whereas Borb’s Battery Bazaar would be large enough to fill most customers orders simultaneously, for a price. Also, with a higher throughput you have a better chance of being able to produce items at the ideal number/production run (which you can figure out using the conversion efficiency and component ratio). Additionally, there could/should be a built-in conversion efficiency bonus for 100+ and 1000+ production orders.
I would note that you have to both have the facilities and the BLUEPRINTS to create any item. As such, I think that almost no player should be able to construct Valkyries or Promethei. Also, high-level (faction or license) items will be VERY hard to get the blueprints for.
On a final note, I HATE the idea of twitch-based crafting. This is supposed to be a Sci-Fi game; production really OUGHT to be automated by now. I also wish to note that the idea that highly skilled pilots are also the inventors and/or industrial workers seems rather, well, stupid.
* IMPORTANT DISCUSSION POINTS *
Could unlimited cargo and docking space in stations be abused in a meaningful (breaking the laws of physics does not count), game-affecting way?
With research moved to a strictly supporting role, “Research Only” stations would be eliminated. Is this a problem or does anyone have a good work-around?
By the way, thank you very much to everyone who has posted on this thread as reading the comments has helped me think about this. I have this almost completely thought out in my head, so please ask if you have any questions that I forgot to ask myself and answer within.
My crafting system stuff is now mostly in this MS Excel file:
http://henson.kzoo.edu/~k01sr02/VO_Economy_Parts.xls
Hi,
how many production steps will be between the ores and the cannon? If an item is good but expensive then I suggest to insert several steps into the production.
Factory "A" produces cannons from ore or only cannon parts what the factory "B" assambles into cannons? (e.g. different factories produce different parts)
How does the market work? If I produce 1000 cannons who will buy it? What happens if I want to produce an item with unavailable components (ore available in next solar system but not here)? What happens if my neigbours start to produce same or better cannon?
Regards
Darkwood
how many production steps will be between the ores and the cannon? If an item is good but expensive then I suggest to insert several steps into the production.
Factory "A" produces cannons from ore or only cannon parts what the factory "B" assambles into cannons? (e.g. different factories produce different parts)
How does the market work? If I produce 1000 cannons who will buy it? What happens if I want to produce an item with unavailable components (ore available in next solar system but not here)? What happens if my neigbours start to produce same or better cannon?
Regards
Darkwood
Steps:
Mine basic ores.
Refine basic ore to premium ores.
Refine premium ores to purified ores.
Produce requisite industrial and production goods from purified ores (and sometimes some other industrial and/or production goods).
Produce "Electronic Components" (and perhaps something additional too) from industrial and production goods.
Produce weapon components from "Electronic Components" and perhaps something additional too.
Produce weapons from weapon components.
So, all in all, there seem to be 7 steps in bringing completely new weapons into the world. I am in the process of researching what is used to create electronic components (plastic, glass, silicon, gold, chemicals...) and, depending on how that goes, I may require stuff in addition to "Electronic Components" in order to produce weapon components. I have selected what ores make what based on some chemistry and geosciences research of mine, with the advice of my dad (oil industry geologist, MS thesis on steel production).
Different station *facilities* produce different parts, so Station A might be a specialty refining station and let you use its facilities for steps 1-2. Station, being Itan, lets you do the rest and make some cannons (but the lines for production orders may be shorter if you instead went to a manufacturing specialty station and then to a barracks specialty station).
All the current factions should receive a tax income in the background of credits from their non-pilot citizens. This would allow them to continuously purchase stockpiles of finished ships, weapons, and equipment. These stockpiles should be the basis for BP NPCs, and nation-commissioned NPC miners/traders. Most NPC stations should also be willing to purchase any ore and middle-product goods (e.g. inert chemicals) for their faction's average price less the cost of a transport mission to the closest station with appropriate processing facilities.
In order to produce anything, you have to already own all the component material goods, have them at your current station, and the current station must have the appropriate facilities. At that point, your production order would be placed in a queue and you would know how long the station will take to complete your request. The station will then have finished your production order and placed the finished items in its hold.
If you neighbor starts producing the same or a better cannon, he will possibly be competing for the station's facility time (increasing its use cost to you) and, if he is selling them to the same people you are, then the price will go down. I expect that the nations' purchases of stockpiles will be run by an AI whose goal is maximum stockpile for least credits, the former being the more important goal (i.e. 101 cannons at 480 credits is better than 100 cannons at 470 credits) to a point at least.
I see the station buy/sell system as becoming more like the NYSE, especially in player-owned/operated stations; people post buy/sell tickets at the station they want the items at/taken from along with a number and unit price. It would also be nice if there were 2 kinds of tickets: "full" (F) tickets would require that the ticket be fulfilled entirely the only time it is taken, whereas "partial" (P) tickets could be filled incrementally (e.g. person A buys 1 item from the ticket and person B buys the rest). Full tickets would let people set up bulk purchase discount deals while partial tickets would let people essentially set up a retail store front. (e.g. in Divinia M-14 I post [400 Purified Water at -10 (F)] credits, meaning that I am selling 400 CU of Purified Water for 10 credits each, and whoever buys them has to buy ALL of them). This way the AI buying nation equipment can, with a 1000 credit budget, post [4 Cannon at 125 (F)] [5 Cannon at 100 (P)].
Thank you very much. -LCCX, Captain of the Sylvanas.
Mine basic ores.
Refine basic ore to premium ores.
Refine premium ores to purified ores.
Produce requisite industrial and production goods from purified ores (and sometimes some other industrial and/or production goods).
Produce "Electronic Components" (and perhaps something additional too) from industrial and production goods.
Produce weapon components from "Electronic Components" and perhaps something additional too.
Produce weapons from weapon components.
So, all in all, there seem to be 7 steps in bringing completely new weapons into the world. I am in the process of researching what is used to create electronic components (plastic, glass, silicon, gold, chemicals...) and, depending on how that goes, I may require stuff in addition to "Electronic Components" in order to produce weapon components. I have selected what ores make what based on some chemistry and geosciences research of mine, with the advice of my dad (oil industry geologist, MS thesis on steel production).
Different station *facilities* produce different parts, so Station A might be a specialty refining station and let you use its facilities for steps 1-2. Station, being Itan, lets you do the rest and make some cannons (but the lines for production orders may be shorter if you instead went to a manufacturing specialty station and then to a barracks specialty station).
All the current factions should receive a tax income in the background of credits from their non-pilot citizens. This would allow them to continuously purchase stockpiles of finished ships, weapons, and equipment. These stockpiles should be the basis for BP NPCs, and nation-commissioned NPC miners/traders. Most NPC stations should also be willing to purchase any ore and middle-product goods (e.g. inert chemicals) for their faction's average price less the cost of a transport mission to the closest station with appropriate processing facilities.
In order to produce anything, you have to already own all the component material goods, have them at your current station, and the current station must have the appropriate facilities. At that point, your production order would be placed in a queue and you would know how long the station will take to complete your request. The station will then have finished your production order and placed the finished items in its hold.
If you neighbor starts producing the same or a better cannon, he will possibly be competing for the station's facility time (increasing its use cost to you) and, if he is selling them to the same people you are, then the price will go down. I expect that the nations' purchases of stockpiles will be run by an AI whose goal is maximum stockpile for least credits, the former being the more important goal (i.e. 101 cannons at 480 credits is better than 100 cannons at 470 credits) to a point at least.
I see the station buy/sell system as becoming more like the NYSE, especially in player-owned/operated stations; people post buy/sell tickets at the station they want the items at/taken from along with a number and unit price. It would also be nice if there were 2 kinds of tickets: "full" (F) tickets would require that the ticket be fulfilled entirely the only time it is taken, whereas "partial" (P) tickets could be filled incrementally (e.g. person A buys 1 item from the ticket and person B buys the rest). Full tickets would let people set up bulk purchase discount deals while partial tickets would let people essentially set up a retail store front. (e.g. in Divinia M-14 I post [400 Purified Water at -10 (F)] credits, meaning that I am selling 400 CU of Purified Water for 10 credits each, and whoever buys them has to buy ALL of them). This way the AI buying nation equipment can, with a 1000 credit budget, post [4 Cannon at 125 (F)] [5 Cannon at 100 (P)].
Thank you very much. -LCCX, Captain of the Sylvanas.
(UM, Lost commander your linkie no workie)
Regarding destructible stations:
Yes it's realistic, but you assume that the A.I. bots (and station guns) would be great defenders. They are not. When it comes down to players vs. AI, the players ALWAYS win. Therefore there would be quite a bit of frustration when players log off and then their enemies come destroy their station every night. No one would build stations.
I'll say that stations could be destructible when they're initially built, but once they are established (i.e. they have been built up to a certain point), then they are indestruvtible save for the "siege" method stated earlier.
Regarding quality rating:
Adding one more field to a database can't be THAT hard. As it stands now, we could set quality ratings to, say, 75% across the board, and then when players make new things that are better or worse than the existing widgets, a new quality rating is generated.
As it stands, if the devs want to have a crafting system, they'll have to keep track of individual widgets anyway. So additional complexity in the system should be anticipated regardless of what method the crafting takes.
The whole POINT of crafting is to make something that is different than everything else out there. If you work at crafting just to make the same-old same-old Phase Blasters, then no one will do it. Custom items are implicit in a crafting system, and their quality or levels or "rating" should be as well...
Regarding twitch-based crafting:
Well I seem to be the only one pushing for this, but I'm not backing down. Twitch-based crafting would be how you create your prototypes (usung a datapad or whatever). How well you control the machine or whatever will result in a quality rating for your prototype. Once you have a prototype you can have robots or unionized workers or flying spaghetti monsters actually MAKE the item.
The point is that crafting something unique should involve the same kind of skill that being a good pilot requires. Otherwise just any 'ol n00b with enough money could create ANYTHING. Using a skill-based limiter to who can create the best items is not only more interesting, but also gives more satisfaction to the player when they make something outstanding.
However, it would be harder for the devs to implement. So I've conceded that (in the interest of time) we'll probably end up with a (Put X and Y into machine, wait 2 minutes, get Z) system.
I like the ideas of taxation and interest on investments.
Regarding facilities in stations:
I think players need to purchase goods or mine the ores as WELL as build and/or buy the equipment to do the crafting. Everyone should not be waiting in line to use the station's facilities. That's just silly.
Meaning, the players should have to rent space from stations to do their crafting and prototyping, and to store their machines and their goods. Or, they could build their own station. This would allow players to charge for rental space, charge for the use of their machines (or offer it free or at reduced prices to guildmembers), and charge for the use of their services.
And, yes. I agree with you that there should be station A.I.s that control some of these scenarios.
Regarding destructible stations:
Yes it's realistic, but you assume that the A.I. bots (and station guns) would be great defenders. They are not. When it comes down to players vs. AI, the players ALWAYS win. Therefore there would be quite a bit of frustration when players log off and then their enemies come destroy their station every night. No one would build stations.
I'll say that stations could be destructible when they're initially built, but once they are established (i.e. they have been built up to a certain point), then they are indestruvtible save for the "siege" method stated earlier.
Regarding quality rating:
Adding one more field to a database can't be THAT hard. As it stands now, we could set quality ratings to, say, 75% across the board, and then when players make new things that are better or worse than the existing widgets, a new quality rating is generated.
As it stands, if the devs want to have a crafting system, they'll have to keep track of individual widgets anyway. So additional complexity in the system should be anticipated regardless of what method the crafting takes.
The whole POINT of crafting is to make something that is different than everything else out there. If you work at crafting just to make the same-old same-old Phase Blasters, then no one will do it. Custom items are implicit in a crafting system, and their quality or levels or "rating" should be as well...
Regarding twitch-based crafting:
Well I seem to be the only one pushing for this, but I'm not backing down. Twitch-based crafting would be how you create your prototypes (usung a datapad or whatever). How well you control the machine or whatever will result in a quality rating for your prototype. Once you have a prototype you can have robots or unionized workers or flying spaghetti monsters actually MAKE the item.
The point is that crafting something unique should involve the same kind of skill that being a good pilot requires. Otherwise just any 'ol n00b with enough money could create ANYTHING. Using a skill-based limiter to who can create the best items is not only more interesting, but also gives more satisfaction to the player when they make something outstanding.
However, it would be harder for the devs to implement. So I've conceded that (in the interest of time) we'll probably end up with a (Put X and Y into machine, wait 2 minutes, get Z) system.
I like the ideas of taxation and interest on investments.
Regarding facilities in stations:
I think players need to purchase goods or mine the ores as WELL as build and/or buy the equipment to do the crafting. Everyone should not be waiting in line to use the station's facilities. That's just silly.
Meaning, the players should have to rent space from stations to do their crafting and prototyping, and to store their machines and their goods. Or, they could build their own station. This would allow players to charge for rental space, charge for the use of their machines (or offer it free or at reduced prices to guildmembers), and charge for the use of their services.
And, yes. I agree with you that there should be station A.I.s that control some of these scenarios.
I am sorry the Excel link does not work for you. It does for me and I am sure I set the file permissions so that anyone should be able to read it. I also, unfortunately, do not have another place I can test the link from.
It would really be a mean thing to do to blow up Joe's Carb shack every night, and larger stations (which would likely have enemies) would then only be something a guild could reasonably protect. Also, although I agree that the station turrets will be only moderately effective, I believe that NPC Strike Force units should be good enough to prevent a small group of players from destroying a station in nation space. Remember that the station is always repairing itself as well.
Adding a field to a database is not hard. However, adding a lot of items could exponentially increase the size of the weapon look-up table for weapon hit calculations, and adding a % modifier for "quality" to weapons would increase the calculations by 1 EVERY TIME A WEAPON HITS. I am worried about the computational cost of trying something like this, not the space cost or programming difficulty.
How so "keep track of individual widgets"? I say let them all be goods and cargo, some of which you just happen to be able to equip on a ship.
People would craft the same old Phase Blasters (or more likely Railgun MkIIs) because it is another way to make money and because someone has to make them in order for anyone to use them. Jumping all the way to a quality-based crafting system is a HUGE jump. I am not fundamentally against it (assuming that the computations problem turns out not to be or can be otherwise resolved), but it really seems like something of a secondary step to simply crafting things and getting a basic economy working/moving. Then you could add quality-based crafting.
Yes, I think you are about the only person pushing for twitch-based crafting. No one controls factory machines themselves anymore; that is what robots are programmed to do. However, I do think the idea is somewhat interesting for TINKERING - thus my suggestion to use it as the basis for creating prototypes/blueprints.
Remember, the n00b is not actually creating anything, no one would be. The highly skilled engineers and factory equipment of the station is doing that part. "crafting something unique should involve the same kind of skill that being a good pilot requires" EXACTLY!! - that is why I suggest twitch-based stuff for prototypes/blueprints.
I am sorry you could not get my spreadsheet, or you would (hopefully, I might not have been as clear as I wanted to be) have seen that you do have to have material components as well as station facilities to produce stuff. Also, unless you are the station owner (or otherwise specially indicated?) you will have to pay credits to the station for them to change your X and Y into Z. This charge, repair and resupply charges, and selling stuff will be the station's credit income.
If someone today (me) wants 1000 neodymium rare-earth magnets, I pay an established factory to make them for me; I do not have to find their building, buy my own machine, and make them myself. Just to make things clearer, in my suggestion, NO PILOTS are actually producing anything. We would all pay established stations' facilities to actually change X and Y to Z (with the possible later exception of prototyping/creating new blueprints).
It would really be a mean thing to do to blow up Joe's Carb shack every night, and larger stations (which would likely have enemies) would then only be something a guild could reasonably protect. Also, although I agree that the station turrets will be only moderately effective, I believe that NPC Strike Force units should be good enough to prevent a small group of players from destroying a station in nation space. Remember that the station is always repairing itself as well.
Adding a field to a database is not hard. However, adding a lot of items could exponentially increase the size of the weapon look-up table for weapon hit calculations, and adding a % modifier for "quality" to weapons would increase the calculations by 1 EVERY TIME A WEAPON HITS. I am worried about the computational cost of trying something like this, not the space cost or programming difficulty.
How so "keep track of individual widgets"? I say let them all be goods and cargo, some of which you just happen to be able to equip on a ship.
People would craft the same old Phase Blasters (or more likely Railgun MkIIs) because it is another way to make money and because someone has to make them in order for anyone to use them. Jumping all the way to a quality-based crafting system is a HUGE jump. I am not fundamentally against it (assuming that the computations problem turns out not to be or can be otherwise resolved), but it really seems like something of a secondary step to simply crafting things and getting a basic economy working/moving. Then you could add quality-based crafting.
Yes, I think you are about the only person pushing for twitch-based crafting. No one controls factory machines themselves anymore; that is what robots are programmed to do. However, I do think the idea is somewhat interesting for TINKERING - thus my suggestion to use it as the basis for creating prototypes/blueprints.
Remember, the n00b is not actually creating anything, no one would be. The highly skilled engineers and factory equipment of the station is doing that part. "crafting something unique should involve the same kind of skill that being a good pilot requires" EXACTLY!! - that is why I suggest twitch-based stuff for prototypes/blueprints.
I am sorry you could not get my spreadsheet, or you would (hopefully, I might not have been as clear as I wanted to be) have seen that you do have to have material components as well as station facilities to produce stuff. Also, unless you are the station owner (or otherwise specially indicated?) you will have to pay credits to the station for them to change your X and Y into Z. This charge, repair and resupply charges, and selling stuff will be the station's credit income.
If someone today (me) wants 1000 neodymium rare-earth magnets, I pay an established factory to make them for me; I do not have to find their building, buy my own machine, and make them myself. Just to make things clearer, in my suggestion, NO PILOTS are actually producing anything. We would all pay established stations' facilities to actually change X and Y to Z (with the possible later exception of prototyping/creating new blueprints).
I think a lengthy example is in order to clear things up a bit, so here.
Wally the Wannabe Water Baron decides it is time to take a step towards this goal. Wally gets a permit from the Itani nation to build a station in Divinia A-7, with 24-7 protection from Itani SFs. Wally travels to Divinia F-6 [Divine Horizon] and purchases (with many components, resources, and credits) a station build order. After 1 week, his brand new basic station (only a station module) appears in Divinia A-7 with a week's worth of station supplies (food, water, radioactives, etc.). So far, no other stations are there, but there might be later. Wally then orders a Module Construction Facility so he can expand his station. After that, Wally orders a Refining Module and an Industrial Factory Module to be built. Finally, Wally orders 2 Aquean Ore Processing Facilities for his Refining Module and 3 Purified Water Facilities for his Industrial Factory Module. This all takes more time, resources, and credits, and the station must be kept supplied/maintained with resources and credits (remember the crew).
With all this done, Wally commissions his friend, Mickey, to go mine 10,000 Aquean Ore at 1cr/CU. When Mickey has delivered the ore, Wally progressively orders his station to refine it and turn it into Purified Water: (all facilities begin with a 50% conversion efficiency)
10,000 Aquean Ore -> 5,000 Premium Aquean Ore @ 2,000/hr = 2.5 hr.
5,000 Premium Aquean Ore -> 2,500 Purified Aquean Ore @ 2,000/hr = 1.25 hr.
2,500 Purified Aquean Ore -> 1,250 Purified Water @ 100/hr = 12.5 hr.
Thus Wally has waited 16.25 hours for his station to produce 1250 Purified Water from 10,000 Aquean Ore. As the station owner, Wally pays nothing directly for this service, but has paid a fair amount indirectly by keeping the station and its crew supplied.
In order to make a profit on this process, Wally next ships the Purified Water himself to Divinia K-3 [Sutte Pathway] and manages to sell it there for 13cr/CU.
Recognizing the painful inefficiency of his station, Wally will next build a Research Module, then a Geosciences Facility. With these additions in place, Wally orders his newly employed researchers to work on Aquean Ore Processing 51%, Aquean Ore Processing 52%, ... Aquean Ore Processing 65%. Each of these incremental improvements costs an increasing amount of resources and credits, and takes an increasing amount of time (+5% each per 1% conversion efficiency increase). The maximum conversion efficiency for any refining process is 80%; he maximum conversion efficiency for any production process is 90%.
Research time for any particular project may be decreased by 5% for a 10% increase in the cost, as many times as desired. Wally chooses to utilize this option twice for the project Purified Water Production 51%. The new cost is 100 * 1.1 * 1.1 = 121% of its original cost and the new time the project will take is 100 * 0.95 * 0.95 = 90.25% of its original time.
When Wally processes his next 10,000 Aquean Ore all the way to Purified Water, he will end up with 10,000 * 0.65 * 0.65 * 0.51 = 2154 CU of Purified Water (rounded down from 2154.75 CU). All production is ALWAYS rounded down.
[Edit: P.S. I have also updated the Excel sheet a bit and attempted to repair the link.]
[Edit: P.P.S. I have update the Excel sheet a lot, and it needs an entirely new link: http://max.cs.kzoo.edu/~srobbins/digital/VO_Economy_Parts.xls ]
Wally the Wannabe Water Baron decides it is time to take a step towards this goal. Wally gets a permit from the Itani nation to build a station in Divinia A-7, with 24-7 protection from Itani SFs. Wally travels to Divinia F-6 [Divine Horizon] and purchases (with many components, resources, and credits) a station build order. After 1 week, his brand new basic station (only a station module) appears in Divinia A-7 with a week's worth of station supplies (food, water, radioactives, etc.). So far, no other stations are there, but there might be later. Wally then orders a Module Construction Facility so he can expand his station. After that, Wally orders a Refining Module and an Industrial Factory Module to be built. Finally, Wally orders 2 Aquean Ore Processing Facilities for his Refining Module and 3 Purified Water Facilities for his Industrial Factory Module. This all takes more time, resources, and credits, and the station must be kept supplied/maintained with resources and credits (remember the crew).
With all this done, Wally commissions his friend, Mickey, to go mine 10,000 Aquean Ore at 1cr/CU. When Mickey has delivered the ore, Wally progressively orders his station to refine it and turn it into Purified Water: (all facilities begin with a 50% conversion efficiency)
10,000 Aquean Ore -> 5,000 Premium Aquean Ore @ 2,000/hr = 2.5 hr.
5,000 Premium Aquean Ore -> 2,500 Purified Aquean Ore @ 2,000/hr = 1.25 hr.
2,500 Purified Aquean Ore -> 1,250 Purified Water @ 100/hr = 12.5 hr.
Thus Wally has waited 16.25 hours for his station to produce 1250 Purified Water from 10,000 Aquean Ore. As the station owner, Wally pays nothing directly for this service, but has paid a fair amount indirectly by keeping the station and its crew supplied.
In order to make a profit on this process, Wally next ships the Purified Water himself to Divinia K-3 [Sutte Pathway] and manages to sell it there for 13cr/CU.
Recognizing the painful inefficiency of his station, Wally will next build a Research Module, then a Geosciences Facility. With these additions in place, Wally orders his newly employed researchers to work on Aquean Ore Processing 51%, Aquean Ore Processing 52%, ... Aquean Ore Processing 65%. Each of these incremental improvements costs an increasing amount of resources and credits, and takes an increasing amount of time (+5% each per 1% conversion efficiency increase). The maximum conversion efficiency for any refining process is 80%; he maximum conversion efficiency for any production process is 90%.
Research time for any particular project may be decreased by 5% for a 10% increase in the cost, as many times as desired. Wally chooses to utilize this option twice for the project Purified Water Production 51%. The new cost is 100 * 1.1 * 1.1 = 121% of its original cost and the new time the project will take is 100 * 0.95 * 0.95 = 90.25% of its original time.
When Wally processes his next 10,000 Aquean Ore all the way to Purified Water, he will end up with 10,000 * 0.65 * 0.65 * 0.51 = 2154 CU of Purified Water (rounded down from 2154.75 CU). All production is ALWAYS rounded down.
[Edit: P.S. I have also updated the Excel sheet a bit and attempted to repair the link.]
[Edit: P.P.S. I have update the Excel sheet a lot, and it needs an entirely new link: http://max.cs.kzoo.edu/~srobbins/digital/VO_Economy_Parts.xls ]
Link works. Kewl.
I love the fact that you want station "modules" etc as well. Even if they do not change the "look" of the station, I think that having upgradeable stations/downgradeable stations will be integral to not only crafting but to the overall economy as well.
Perfect. I'll post my excel sheet for a "widgets" tree tonite. It's not complete, and it adds a bunch of crap that isn't there yet, making more work for devs. (Sorry!) I'll try to finish it up tonight before I post it. It kinda goes hand-in-hand with your sheet, except that all "equipment" (like refineries, factories, etc) are widgets as well, instead of built-in to a station. (So you could load your 120 cu refinery into a Behemoth and move it to a different station and set up shop there if you wanted...)
I agree - everything should be widgets, weapons, batteries, yes even SHIPS. (So you could use a Behemoth to ferry 3 or 4 Valkyries to Sedina at a time...) - everything has a cu (bulk) and mass rating to allow this.
I forsee that certain stations will begin to specialize in certain products. Starting with things like your "purified water", stations will come to know Wally as the best source for purified water, and may choose to just buy from him rather than make everything themselves. Eventually with the economy, stations will begin to specialize in more advanced things, so that perhaps Wally will use his water to make liquid oxygen through electrolysis, then chill it in a compression chamber into Liquid Oxygen, and then use the liquid oxygen to fuel his sunflare rockets.
With a "real" economy, I think everything will build on itself quickly and we'll have something up and running in no time, with NPC Station A.I.'s competing and working with Player/Guild-operated stations.
I still strongly disagree with having destructible stations. Players will always find a way to destroy something,regardless of whether you have 20 capships guarding your station or not. Losing a station with ALL of the months of hard work that went into building it is just too much to give up, especially if you go on vacation or something. I think that stations should only be destructible in their formative stages. Once the "core" is built, then it's just like any NPC station - invulnerable.
I love the fact that you want station "modules" etc as well. Even if they do not change the "look" of the station, I think that having upgradeable stations/downgradeable stations will be integral to not only crafting but to the overall economy as well.
Perfect. I'll post my excel sheet for a "widgets" tree tonite. It's not complete, and it adds a bunch of crap that isn't there yet, making more work for devs. (Sorry!) I'll try to finish it up tonight before I post it. It kinda goes hand-in-hand with your sheet, except that all "equipment" (like refineries, factories, etc) are widgets as well, instead of built-in to a station. (So you could load your 120 cu refinery into a Behemoth and move it to a different station and set up shop there if you wanted...)
I agree - everything should be widgets, weapons, batteries, yes even SHIPS. (So you could use a Behemoth to ferry 3 or 4 Valkyries to Sedina at a time...) - everything has a cu (bulk) and mass rating to allow this.
I forsee that certain stations will begin to specialize in certain products. Starting with things like your "purified water", stations will come to know Wally as the best source for purified water, and may choose to just buy from him rather than make everything themselves. Eventually with the economy, stations will begin to specialize in more advanced things, so that perhaps Wally will use his water to make liquid oxygen through electrolysis, then chill it in a compression chamber into Liquid Oxygen, and then use the liquid oxygen to fuel his sunflare rockets.
With a "real" economy, I think everything will build on itself quickly and we'll have something up and running in no time, with NPC Station A.I.'s competing and working with Player/Guild-operated stations.
I still strongly disagree with having destructible stations. Players will always find a way to destroy something,regardless of whether you have 20 capships guarding your station or not. Losing a station with ALL of the months of hard work that went into building it is just too much to give up, especially if you go on vacation or something. I think that stations should only be destructible in their formative stages. Once the "core" is built, then it's just like any NPC station - invulnerable.
LostCommander sez: Just to make things clearer, in my suggestion, NO PILOTS are actually producing anything.
Well, I see the player not as just a pilot but as a PLAYER. The player could prototype something up by experimenting with formulas, adjusting sliders, using twitch crafting, whatever the process ends up being. He/she makes ONE of that item, and once that happens, the data is locked into your "blueprint" or "datapad". Whether the item is any good or not depends on the PLAYER, their skill or their creativity or their knowledge.
Plug that blueprint/datapad into your "manufacturing" machines, and the machines in that station take raw material from your inventory & credits from your account and start mass-producing your designs. The station A.I. uses up your inventory of components first, and if you run out, it uses up the station's inventory, charging you for it as you go. If IT runs out, it spawns missions for other players to get stuff for you, setting a pay rate for the items and for the player's services. If no players take the misssion, then the Station A.I. spawns NPC traders to go get more stuff for you, charging your account for their pay as well as the widgets. If you buy up all of the galaxy's Heliocene by crafting your items, then stations acrosss the Galaxy would "sense" the scarcity of Heliocene, and start creating more Heliocene mining missions and spawning NPC miners to go mine more Helio. They would do this because the scarcity of helio made prices shoot thru the ROOF and it's now insanely profitable to have Helio, due to you cornering the market on it.
(Which would open up a whole new economic strategy - stockpiling and cornering the market on things - this would make for great economic warfare, and a need for guilds and nations to have "Strategic Reserves" of necesssary widgets.)
Well, I see the player not as just a pilot but as a PLAYER. The player could prototype something up by experimenting with formulas, adjusting sliders, using twitch crafting, whatever the process ends up being. He/she makes ONE of that item, and once that happens, the data is locked into your "blueprint" or "datapad". Whether the item is any good or not depends on the PLAYER, their skill or their creativity or their knowledge.
Plug that blueprint/datapad into your "manufacturing" machines, and the machines in that station take raw material from your inventory & credits from your account and start mass-producing your designs. The station A.I. uses up your inventory of components first, and if you run out, it uses up the station's inventory, charging you for it as you go. If IT runs out, it spawns missions for other players to get stuff for you, setting a pay rate for the items and for the player's services. If no players take the misssion, then the Station A.I. spawns NPC traders to go get more stuff for you, charging your account for their pay as well as the widgets. If you buy up all of the galaxy's Heliocene by crafting your items, then stations acrosss the Galaxy would "sense" the scarcity of Heliocene, and start creating more Heliocene mining missions and spawning NPC miners to go mine more Helio. They would do this because the scarcity of helio made prices shoot thru the ROOF and it's now insanely profitable to have Helio, due to you cornering the market on it.
(Which would open up a whole new economic strategy - stockpiling and cornering the market on things - this would make for great economic warfare, and a need for guilds and nations to have "Strategic Reserves" of necesssary widgets.)
Station modules must change the look of the station. How else can more turrets fire or can someone dock at an additional place? Also, I expect facilities to each slightly change the appearance of the modules they are in. That way one can easily tell say a completed Refining Module from a brand new one.
The whole point of my spread sheet is to try and MINIMIZE the changes necessary to implement a crafting system economy. I want as few new items as feasibly and reasonably possible. However, I am also going for a bit of realism - thus my research into what actually goes into all of the current trade goods.
The manufacturing facilities are ONLY yours if you own the station. The facilities should NEVER take resources from the station's inventory; you must buy them first, then place and pay for a production order. This presents a very clear, step-by-step process with very few "but what if" possibilities.
In your (LeberMac) idea here { http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406?page=7#140946 }: What if I do not want to use up all of my resources producing whatever? What if I do not want to be charged for use and depletion of the station's inventory? What if I do not want to pay for missions? Of course, each of these could be answered with a bunch of restrictive questions [checkboxes and text fields] in a (IMHO rather complicated) GUI, or I can just like my way.
NO SPAWNING!!! !!! That is COMPLETELY against the idea of full economy. NPC ships have to come from SOMEWHERE. Personally, I think NPC miners should only do general mining - regular mining beams on whatever is the nearest asteroid with a temp of 10-100K, then move on to the next.
Facilities/"factories" are significantly larger than any regular ship, thus they most definitely should NOT be transportable by regular player vessels. I really like the idea of a capital ship with a small refining capacity, however; good idea.
Regular ships do not and should not fit into other regular ships. I only want to see regular ships transported by capital ships and NPC piloted relocation missions.
Since we (LeberMac and I) fundamentally differ on station destructability, I suggest that we leave off it and focus on discussing everything else. Anyone else should feel free to comment on this issue with a vote, plus any new points beyond the following:
Destructability Pro:
1) There is a point to attacking a station, other than to be an ass right outside the docking bay.
2) There is a point to defending a station, other than to kill the ass right outside the docking bay.
3) Provides a Dev-action-free way to clear out automated but unused stations.
4) Provides a high-entropy outlet for the infinite ore input economy.
Destructability Con:
1-3) An entire station, potentially with MONTHS of time invested into it, along with TONS of resources and credits could be destroyed, along will ALL of its contents -- tons more resources and potentially huge stockpiles of weapons, equipment, and ships.
4) If a station is destroyed, what happens to people homed there?
If stations are destructible, there really should be some form of insurance AT LEAST in nation space, and probably (though much more expensively) also in grey space. Additionally, this would provide an interesting way to loosen nation borders to allow for expansion/contraction. However, do not discount Cons 1-3, I just believe that they are acceptable given the interesting events they allow to occur. On the other hand, I feel that improved NPC defense (or something else) is a better solution to the problem (Cons 1-3) than to throw up my hands, say "players can do anything and this is 100% unacceptable" and make stations actually invulnerable.
The whole point of my spread sheet is to try and MINIMIZE the changes necessary to implement a crafting system economy. I want as few new items as feasibly and reasonably possible. However, I am also going for a bit of realism - thus my research into what actually goes into all of the current trade goods.
The manufacturing facilities are ONLY yours if you own the station. The facilities should NEVER take resources from the station's inventory; you must buy them first, then place and pay for a production order. This presents a very clear, step-by-step process with very few "but what if" possibilities.
In your (LeberMac) idea here { http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406?page=7#140946 }: What if I do not want to use up all of my resources producing whatever? What if I do not want to be charged for use and depletion of the station's inventory? What if I do not want to pay for missions? Of course, each of these could be answered with a bunch of restrictive questions [checkboxes and text fields] in a (IMHO rather complicated) GUI, or I can just like my way.
NO SPAWNING!!! !!! That is COMPLETELY against the idea of full economy. NPC ships have to come from SOMEWHERE. Personally, I think NPC miners should only do general mining - regular mining beams on whatever is the nearest asteroid with a temp of 10-100K, then move on to the next.
Facilities/"factories" are significantly larger than any regular ship, thus they most definitely should NOT be transportable by regular player vessels. I really like the idea of a capital ship with a small refining capacity, however; good idea.
Regular ships do not and should not fit into other regular ships. I only want to see regular ships transported by capital ships and NPC piloted relocation missions.
Since we (LeberMac and I) fundamentally differ on station destructability, I suggest that we leave off it and focus on discussing everything else. Anyone else should feel free to comment on this issue with a vote, plus any new points beyond the following:
Destructability Pro:
1) There is a point to attacking a station, other than to be an ass right outside the docking bay.
2) There is a point to defending a station, other than to kill the ass right outside the docking bay.
3) Provides a Dev-action-free way to clear out automated but unused stations.
4) Provides a high-entropy outlet for the infinite ore input economy.
Destructability Con:
1-3) An entire station, potentially with MONTHS of time invested into it, along with TONS of resources and credits could be destroyed, along will ALL of its contents -- tons more resources and potentially huge stockpiles of weapons, equipment, and ships.
4) If a station is destroyed, what happens to people homed there?
If stations are destructible, there really should be some form of insurance AT LEAST in nation space, and probably (though much more expensively) also in grey space. Additionally, this would provide an interesting way to loosen nation borders to allow for expansion/contraction. However, do not discount Cons 1-3, I just believe that they are acceptable given the interesting events they allow to occur. On the other hand, I feel that improved NPC defense (or something else) is a better solution to the problem (Cons 1-3) than to throw up my hands, say "players can do anything and this is 100% unacceptable" and make stations actually invulnerable.
My crafting items excel sheet (LOL goes totally against LostCommander's idea of having LESS stuff, but oh well.)
http://www.itanialliance.com/interface/crafting_items_proposal_0b1.xls
I did a small bit of research as far as what might go into the goods. Totally not complete, I didn't get to weaps or facilities. Or how things integrate, really. (Packers are on...)
Hrm. Commander, you say you want to minimize the changes necessary to implement a crafting system, but you're all for the creation of a changing station exterior, with add-on modules, laser turrets, etc. That would be FAR more work than adding some more widget items to a database and assuming that stations stay static from the outside. (Admittedly, having changing stations that grow/shrink & add/remove modules of all kinds with economic conditions and how popular their locations are would be kickass, but a lotta work...)
I don't think you would need to own the station to do crafting. It would be easier and "scalable" if the devs just assumed that the stations are "infinite boxes" that charged players for storage space, crafting space, and manufacturing space. Once the economy is more stable, the devs can limit the space for all stations and watch as the more popular stations start to charge more, and stations like Pelatus Bunker (in the middle of nowhere) start to have fire sales on storage. Then, once the game was stable at that stage, the devs could allow player & guild-owned stations to be created.
Sure, I think that for ease-of-use you could just assume that all production stops when you run out of resources in the station you are doing production in. It would be neat to offer missions for other players to get your materials, though.
WHY NO SPAWNING?!? The players "spawned" when they joined. But I see your point, in a strict realism sense people do not pop out of nowhere with a Behemoth. However, we can't constantly make due with 50 NPC traders and 50 NPC miners across the galaxy. I think that when economic conditions are favorable for Traders and Miners, more should be created. Kind of like a gold rush. When there's easy money to be made, people come out of the woodwork to make their fortunes. We can explain the "spawning" by creating new NPC's with busses. (Now do we have to keep track of these NPC's like we do players? Do they get to level up and buy more stuff when they can? That would definitely be realistic...)
I like the idea of transporting large amounts of heavy machinery from station to station. I assume that eventually the devs will create a transport ship even larger than the Behemoth, say 10X larger. It would be excellent to defend and/or attack one of those freighters when an entire guild's manufacturing capacity is housed within it. Perhaps some stations will excel in making the machines that make ships, you could just purchase one of those machines instead of building our own.
I really like the ability to transport smaller ships inside larger ones. Like a car carrier. I can't see any reason why this should not be possible. It would tie in nicely with how many ships would be allowed to dock with a capship. Right now it's infinite. That's not very realistic.
LOL - You say we should leave off the discussion on station destructability then launch right into it. Hehe. I'll say two things on that topic, LostCommander...
1. Station Insurance is all well and good, but it's not the MONEY you lose, it's the TIME you spent creating it.
2. I know for a fact that if I built a station, tried to keep its location as secret as possible, spent all my waking hours online playing VO, and then went off for vacation, then ALL of my enemies ingame would combine forces to destroy my station when I was gone. I KNOW it. I would do the same to any [SCAR] or [SoR] station that I found out about. If stations are destructible in any way besides something along the lines of the siege we described elsewhere in this thread, I know that I will NEVER build a station. It's just too much to lose.
See station & shipbuilding threads here:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11431
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11519
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11475
Station interface thread here:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11492
Phaser feel free to jump in with other threads...
http://www.itanialliance.com/interface/crafting_items_proposal_0b1.xls
I did a small bit of research as far as what might go into the goods. Totally not complete, I didn't get to weaps or facilities. Or how things integrate, really. (Packers are on...)
Hrm. Commander, you say you want to minimize the changes necessary to implement a crafting system, but you're all for the creation of a changing station exterior, with add-on modules, laser turrets, etc. That would be FAR more work than adding some more widget items to a database and assuming that stations stay static from the outside. (Admittedly, having changing stations that grow/shrink & add/remove modules of all kinds with economic conditions and how popular their locations are would be kickass, but a lotta work...)
I don't think you would need to own the station to do crafting. It would be easier and "scalable" if the devs just assumed that the stations are "infinite boxes" that charged players for storage space, crafting space, and manufacturing space. Once the economy is more stable, the devs can limit the space for all stations and watch as the more popular stations start to charge more, and stations like Pelatus Bunker (in the middle of nowhere) start to have fire sales on storage. Then, once the game was stable at that stage, the devs could allow player & guild-owned stations to be created.
Sure, I think that for ease-of-use you could just assume that all production stops when you run out of resources in the station you are doing production in. It would be neat to offer missions for other players to get your materials, though.
WHY NO SPAWNING?!? The players "spawned" when they joined. But I see your point, in a strict realism sense people do not pop out of nowhere with a Behemoth. However, we can't constantly make due with 50 NPC traders and 50 NPC miners across the galaxy. I think that when economic conditions are favorable for Traders and Miners, more should be created. Kind of like a gold rush. When there's easy money to be made, people come out of the woodwork to make their fortunes. We can explain the "spawning" by creating new NPC's with busses. (Now do we have to keep track of these NPC's like we do players? Do they get to level up and buy more stuff when they can? That would definitely be realistic...)
I like the idea of transporting large amounts of heavy machinery from station to station. I assume that eventually the devs will create a transport ship even larger than the Behemoth, say 10X larger. It would be excellent to defend and/or attack one of those freighters when an entire guild's manufacturing capacity is housed within it. Perhaps some stations will excel in making the machines that make ships, you could just purchase one of those machines instead of building our own.
I really like the ability to transport smaller ships inside larger ones. Like a car carrier. I can't see any reason why this should not be possible. It would tie in nicely with how many ships would be allowed to dock with a capship. Right now it's infinite. That's not very realistic.
LOL - You say we should leave off the discussion on station destructability then launch right into it. Hehe. I'll say two things on that topic, LostCommander...
1. Station Insurance is all well and good, but it's not the MONEY you lose, it's the TIME you spent creating it.
2. I know for a fact that if I built a station, tried to keep its location as secret as possible, spent all my waking hours online playing VO, and then went off for vacation, then ALL of my enemies ingame would combine forces to destroy my station when I was gone. I KNOW it. I would do the same to any [SCAR] or [SoR] station that I found out about. If stations are destructible in any way besides something along the lines of the siege we described elsewhere in this thread, I know that I will NEVER build a station. It's just too much to lose.
See station & shipbuilding threads here:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11431
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11519
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11475
Station interface thread here:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11492
Phaser feel free to jump in with other threads...