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Phaser said: I don't think crafting should be at all based on who is the best at playing <x> mini game. I think when it comes to non-combat activities like crafting, management strategy over twitch skill is far more interesting... i.e. do I allocate more resources to crafting phase blasters or vultures? Which is in higher demand? What will I use the profits for? Should I pay people to clear out that sector of valuable ore so I can make higher end widgets or play it safe in the lower end market? What about signing a trade agreement for <x> amount of ion cores to be delivered here each week?
OK I guess you can call it a mini-game, but that's what it is.
You could still have management ability AND twitch skill. You could have one guildmember who SUCKS at making batteries, and one who is pretty good at the "mini-game" of welding a solid bead. Using your superior management skills, you send the first player out to gather resources, and the second to stay in-station and weld up some nice Vulture Mk V's with 230 m/s infiniboost.
You would not just manage inanimate resources and put them together in certain configurations to make Batteries, or vultures, or whatever, but you would manage PLAYERS as well, which is FAR more interesting.
What if your competitor starts killing your resource gatherers? Well, now you gotta get your guild's combat experts to go out and protect your resources, which makes your items cost more. Especially if you have to hire mercenaries to protect them.
Meanwhile, your competitor (who is mysteriously NOT being attacked by these pirates) is taking your buisness because his items cost less.
Would you hire your own pirates to take him out? Or do you stay on the defensive and hope for the best? Depends on how skilled your twitch-based guild combat experts are...
Or perhaps you resort to economic warfare, you find out where he's getting his materials and you heat his asteroids up to 1 million K, cutting off his supply line.
I think the human ("twitch") aspect of the crafting would make Vendetta-Online crafting system TRULY unique, and not just another space-fighting game with widgets you can make.
OK I guess you can call it a mini-game, but that's what it is.
You could still have management ability AND twitch skill. You could have one guildmember who SUCKS at making batteries, and one who is pretty good at the "mini-game" of welding a solid bead. Using your superior management skills, you send the first player out to gather resources, and the second to stay in-station and weld up some nice Vulture Mk V's with 230 m/s infiniboost.
You would not just manage inanimate resources and put them together in certain configurations to make Batteries, or vultures, or whatever, but you would manage PLAYERS as well, which is FAR more interesting.
What if your competitor starts killing your resource gatherers? Well, now you gotta get your guild's combat experts to go out and protect your resources, which makes your items cost more. Especially if you have to hire mercenaries to protect them.
Meanwhile, your competitor (who is mysteriously NOT being attacked by these pirates) is taking your buisness because his items cost less.
Would you hire your own pirates to take him out? Or do you stay on the defensive and hope for the best? Depends on how skilled your twitch-based guild combat experts are...
Or perhaps you resort to economic warfare, you find out where he's getting his materials and you heat his asteroids up to 1 million K, cutting off his supply line.
I think the human ("twitch") aspect of the crafting would make Vendetta-Online crafting system TRULY unique, and not just another space-fighting game with widgets you can make.
Oooh, I know I'm being a TOTAL thread-hog, but in order to get your crafting items sold you need one thing:
Advertising.
This is peripheral, but there should be a place where you can PAY to have your message broadcast. You could target channel 11 for UIT/Itani/Serco, you could mass-broadcast over 100, or you could have graphical ads in-station on the interface.
HOWEVER.
I REALLY do not want ads (OF ANY KIND) to become annoying ingame. Obviously you'd have to put them thru a filter so that no lewd messages or images get put up there.
Just my latest brain-spasm on this topic.
Advertising.
This is peripheral, but there should be a place where you can PAY to have your message broadcast. You could target channel 11 for UIT/Itani/Serco, you could mass-broadcast over 100, or you could have graphical ads in-station on the interface.
HOWEVER.
I REALLY do not want ads (OF ANY KIND) to become annoying ingame. Obviously you'd have to put them thru a filter so that no lewd messages or images get put up there.
Just my latest brain-spasm on this topic.
Heh, easy there LeberMac. :D
I'm with Phaser in this: emulating antique craftmanship with high-tech manufacturing is just plain silly. Cooking up new artifacts by throwing together random objects really does not go well in a SF world where engineering is a science.
Advancement in technology is inevitable and those who invest time and money to it should be the first ones to reap the profits of new designs. Maybe there could be a non-twitch minigame for guiding research but inventions should not just pop up because someone is a pro at soldering. Avoiding MUDflation is of course an issue with ever increasing überness of equipment. Maybe even NPC manufacturers should eventually cease to produce obsolete equipment.
The unit price of artifacts should drop dramatically when buying bulk. Manufacturing a single Valk is a custom job but setting up an assembly line gives you dozens for the price of one (1000 units or more), thus making large orders and stocking an investment decision.
Oh, and considering back-orders. The man.shops could employ some sort of scheduling where they allow smaller jobs to pre-empt bulk ones (to some degree). Paying more and getting all the components yourself could speed up the process. Or maybe bulk orders are always done on a separate assembly line set up for that job? Slow to start but dirt cheap.
I'm with Phaser in this: emulating antique craftmanship with high-tech manufacturing is just plain silly. Cooking up new artifacts by throwing together random objects really does not go well in a SF world where engineering is a science.
Advancement in technology is inevitable and those who invest time and money to it should be the first ones to reap the profits of new designs. Maybe there could be a non-twitch minigame for guiding research but inventions should not just pop up because someone is a pro at soldering. Avoiding MUDflation is of course an issue with ever increasing überness of equipment. Maybe even NPC manufacturers should eventually cease to produce obsolete equipment.
The unit price of artifacts should drop dramatically when buying bulk. Manufacturing a single Valk is a custom job but setting up an assembly line gives you dozens for the price of one (1000 units or more), thus making large orders and stocking an investment decision.
Oh, and considering back-orders. The man.shops could employ some sort of scheduling where they allow smaller jobs to pre-empt bulk ones (to some degree). Paying more and getting all the components yourself could speed up the process. Or maybe bulk orders are always done on a separate assembly line set up for that job? Slow to start but dirt cheap.
Well, apparently I've chosen poor visual examples. The making a shovel and/or subspace welding were just metaphors. I'm not saying that Itani bang out their ship hulls with hammers; I'm sure that the process is highly advanced and uses futuristic technology. That does not mean that the process does not require skill and craftsmanship.
We've already determined that computers & robots themselves cannot mass-produce anything new, only copies of existing prototypes.(e.g. The Hive). Human input is required to create new objects.
The twitch-based skill portion of crafting could be anything you can imagine: Dynamically controlling a fusion torus by roating a 3-D magnetic "bottle" around your fusion power source to keep it contained, whatever. Make it as abstract and as high-tech as you like.
The twitch- or "skill-" based system I propose would be one of the easiest ways to avoid what you describe as "MUDflation", margoth. Only actual skilled players could create the most powerful items.
As far as the economics of this, you are dead on. Mass production of an item has reduced costs per piece but higher initial up-front costs. Commodity prices and such should ebb and flow across the galaxy, following the laws of supply and demand.
Would each player/guild have to build their own assembly lines? If so, then when the line is built they can specify "mass production" "short run" or "prototyping" assembly line capacities... (?)
We've already determined that computers & robots themselves cannot mass-produce anything new, only copies of existing prototypes.(e.g. The Hive). Human input is required to create new objects.
The twitch-based skill portion of crafting could be anything you can imagine: Dynamically controlling a fusion torus by roating a 3-D magnetic "bottle" around your fusion power source to keep it contained, whatever. Make it as abstract and as high-tech as you like.
The twitch- or "skill-" based system I propose would be one of the easiest ways to avoid what you describe as "MUDflation", margoth. Only actual skilled players could create the most powerful items.
As far as the economics of this, you are dead on. Mass production of an item has reduced costs per piece but higher initial up-front costs. Commodity prices and such should ebb and flow across the galaxy, following the laws of supply and demand.
Would each player/guild have to build their own assembly lines? If so, then when the line is built they can specify "mass production" "short run" or "prototyping" assembly line capacities... (?)
Other things that can go with crafting:
Transports:
Move stuff from place to place. Basically, if Player X makes a ton of Positron Blasters at Station A, and wants to move them to the guild hall at Station B. He simply goes to the "Transport" tab, and puts the goods in the Transport Queue. Within a day or so, a transport arrives at Station A picks up the goods, and takes them to Station B. Transports have fixed space, so if the number of weapons or ships exceed that space, then either an additional transport will be sent simultaneously, or will make a second trip, depending on the size of the station (naturally, a larger station will be able to support more transports, so will either be able to process more requests, or be able to process larger requests, than a smaller station). The larger request, and the longer the request, the more expensive it will be. If after one request has been filled, there is room for the goods from a different request from the same station (with the same destination as the first), or a different station within the same system (again, with the same destination as the first), then the transport will fill both before returning.
Guild Halls:
The intermediate to Guild built stations. The Guild Hall is a place for Guild Commanders to post notices to guildmembers, and guildmembers to other guildmembers, etc. It's also a place where members can stockpile goods and make them available to other members. Guild Halls must be leased from a station, at a monthly rate of I-don't-know-what, but in return Guilds get easier crafting, as well as free transport TO that station.
Transports:
Move stuff from place to place. Basically, if Player X makes a ton of Positron Blasters at Station A, and wants to move them to the guild hall at Station B. He simply goes to the "Transport" tab, and puts the goods in the Transport Queue. Within a day or so, a transport arrives at Station A picks up the goods, and takes them to Station B. Transports have fixed space, so if the number of weapons or ships exceed that space, then either an additional transport will be sent simultaneously, or will make a second trip, depending on the size of the station (naturally, a larger station will be able to support more transports, so will either be able to process more requests, or be able to process larger requests, than a smaller station). The larger request, and the longer the request, the more expensive it will be. If after one request has been filled, there is room for the goods from a different request from the same station (with the same destination as the first), or a different station within the same system (again, with the same destination as the first), then the transport will fill both before returning.
Guild Halls:
The intermediate to Guild built stations. The Guild Hall is a place for Guild Commanders to post notices to guildmembers, and guildmembers to other guildmembers, etc. It's also a place where members can stockpile goods and make them available to other members. Guild Halls must be leased from a station, at a monthly rate of I-don't-know-what, but in return Guilds get easier crafting, as well as free transport TO that station.
"Advertising.
This is peripheral, but there should be a place where you can PAY to have your message broadcast. You could target channel 11 for UIT/Itani/Serco, you could mass-broadcast over 100, or you could have graphical ads in-station on the interface.
HOWEVER.
I REALLY do not want ads (OF ANY KIND) to become annoying ingame. Obviously you'd have to put them thru a filter so that no lewd messages or images get put up there."
Pay to have it put on news. It disapears after a while depending on how much you spend, and has a dif color depending on how much you spend.
Red=VERY GOOD ARIFACT AND BUY IMMIDIATLY 100k lets say
yellow=decent hurry b4 gone... 75k
green=shitty but its there atleast and a cheap buy 50k7
prices may vary but thats the basic idea.
This is peripheral, but there should be a place where you can PAY to have your message broadcast. You could target channel 11 for UIT/Itani/Serco, you could mass-broadcast over 100, or you could have graphical ads in-station on the interface.
HOWEVER.
I REALLY do not want ads (OF ANY KIND) to become annoying ingame. Obviously you'd have to put them thru a filter so that no lewd messages or images get put up there."
Pay to have it put on news. It disapears after a while depending on how much you spend, and has a dif color depending on how much you spend.
Red=VERY GOOD ARIFACT AND BUY IMMIDIATLY 100k lets say
yellow=decent hurry b4 gone... 75k
green=shitty but its there atleast and a cheap buy 50k7
prices may vary but thats the basic idea.
here is how i see crafting working from an RP perspective (i'll perpose some game-rule ideas after i describe the RP side).
The way i see it, crafting would work this way:
Somone gets an idea for a new or inpruved widget or ship designe. So he sits down and draws up some blueprints or writes up a perposal that he then uses to make or commision a prototype. Then that prototype can be used to set up limited production, or mass production systems. Testing would likely be done during either the prototype phase or after a limited production depending on the risk of destruction and the eas of creating a replacment prototype.
Now, because building starship hulls, and complecated electronics requires a veriety of specilaized equipment the person who is doing the crafting will have to have acess to these systems (either by owing his own, or by renting the equipment from someone who does own them)
Now how does this translate to game rules?
1. Players have to be able to sell and give weapons and ships to one another. (this will need to be restricted to preven players from circumvanting the level system. perhaps by having use of an unlicened weapon or ship be illegal in monitered space, leading to standing loss and or strike force attacks)
2. There needs to be an interface whereby players can designe new widgets and ships. the designes would then be represented by a "datapad widget" (it would be helpfull if players could edit a field that would help distinguish between several datapads with different blueprints). This also will require there to be some system regarding what different designs are posable. For example, what hapens if you add redundant targeting systems to a Gatling Turret?
3. then in order to make the prototype the player needs acess to materials and crafting equipment. The quality of the materials used should have some effect on the end quality, but the main issues at this level of production are getting ahold of a "prototyping facility". Stations could rent their equipment to characters with a certain level and or standing, or guild owned stations could allow players with leadership positions to acess the prototyping facilities (this way if a low ranking guild member or somone who isn't a member of the guild wants to use the facilities he has to get a ranking guild-member to actuyaly autherise the use of guild facilities, and will have to hand over the datapad with the plans). the datapad itself isn't consumed during the prototyping process, and can be used again.
4. the next step is limited or mass production. This step requires use of the apropriat facilities (with the same sort of restrictions as the prototyping facilities). This step also requires a prototype (prototypes should be flagged as such so that any old unit can't be used for this step), and materials. Although each unit produced requires less materials and time than the prototype did (with mass production requireing less time but the same materials as limited production)
5. there shouls also be a way to revers engineer a widget or ship a player has aqquired. This would require facilities, materials and time and should have a chance of failyer. however if sucessfull, the revers engineerd unit becomes a prototype that can be used to set up limited or mass production. (because the player never gets the datapad he can't produce an unlimited quantity of the revers engineered unit without repededly reverse engineering some of the produced units)
i'm not realy sure how a twitch based system would realy work for crafting. i'm not nesesarily opposed to one, but only if the player's actions make sence in the setting (manualy welding, or pounding don't make much sence in my opinion)
The way i see it, crafting would work this way:
Somone gets an idea for a new or inpruved widget or ship designe. So he sits down and draws up some blueprints or writes up a perposal that he then uses to make or commision a prototype. Then that prototype can be used to set up limited production, or mass production systems. Testing would likely be done during either the prototype phase or after a limited production depending on the risk of destruction and the eas of creating a replacment prototype.
Now, because building starship hulls, and complecated electronics requires a veriety of specilaized equipment the person who is doing the crafting will have to have acess to these systems (either by owing his own, or by renting the equipment from someone who does own them)
Now how does this translate to game rules?
1. Players have to be able to sell and give weapons and ships to one another. (this will need to be restricted to preven players from circumvanting the level system. perhaps by having use of an unlicened weapon or ship be illegal in monitered space, leading to standing loss and or strike force attacks)
2. There needs to be an interface whereby players can designe new widgets and ships. the designes would then be represented by a "datapad widget" (it would be helpfull if players could edit a field that would help distinguish between several datapads with different blueprints). This also will require there to be some system regarding what different designs are posable. For example, what hapens if you add redundant targeting systems to a Gatling Turret?
3. then in order to make the prototype the player needs acess to materials and crafting equipment. The quality of the materials used should have some effect on the end quality, but the main issues at this level of production are getting ahold of a "prototyping facility". Stations could rent their equipment to characters with a certain level and or standing, or guild owned stations could allow players with leadership positions to acess the prototyping facilities (this way if a low ranking guild member or somone who isn't a member of the guild wants to use the facilities he has to get a ranking guild-member to actuyaly autherise the use of guild facilities, and will have to hand over the datapad with the plans). the datapad itself isn't consumed during the prototyping process, and can be used again.
4. the next step is limited or mass production. This step requires use of the apropriat facilities (with the same sort of restrictions as the prototyping facilities). This step also requires a prototype (prototypes should be flagged as such so that any old unit can't be used for this step), and materials. Although each unit produced requires less materials and time than the prototype did (with mass production requireing less time but the same materials as limited production)
5. there shouls also be a way to revers engineer a widget or ship a player has aqquired. This would require facilities, materials and time and should have a chance of failyer. however if sucessfull, the revers engineerd unit becomes a prototype that can be used to set up limited or mass production. (because the player never gets the datapad he can't produce an unlimited quantity of the revers engineered unit without repededly reverse engineering some of the produced units)
i'm not realy sure how a twitch based system would realy work for crafting. i'm not nesesarily opposed to one, but only if the player's actions make sence in the setting (manualy welding, or pounding don't make much sence in my opinion)
LordQ: Nice post.
1. Players have to be able to sell and give weapons and ships to one another.
Agreed. This is fairly implicit in any sort of crafting system imho (if you spend a lot of time making stuff naturally you are going to want to sell some of it to recoup the expense)... all it would take is making equipment able to be carried as cargo. Then nothing would stop players from crafting an item, carrying it outside the station and jettisoning it for a buyer.
Later on perhaps there could be a vendor system implemented alongside the station network (mentioned in the dev wiki) where a crafter puts a certain amount of items up for sale or bid. The vendor would have the option to limit the sale by nation, guild, system, or station, and a brief description of the item would pop up in the station network of stations matching the sale criteria.
Once a buyer was found the ownership of the item would switch hands, but it would remain at the station where it was stored. The buyer could then go pick it up himself or designate a delivery mission which could be fulfilled either by another player or an NPC.
Of course this opens up the possibility of low level players acquiring high level items. I've got some ideas of how to deal with this:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/9410
The sales on the station network could be automatically limited by license level, but if weapons could be carried as cargo then nothing would stop a "behind-the-scenes" shady deal in person. Of course if the station guard scanned you with that illegal equipment, your ass is grass.
2. There needs to be an interface whereby players can designe new widgets and ships. the designes would then be represented by a "datapad widget"
This is a really cool idea. There could probably be some sort of manufacturing facility which eats ore and widgets out of your station inventory and has a slot to equip a blueprint datapad. The blueprint could be for a weapon, battery, or ship. You would slap the datapad in the slot, punch in how many you wanted, and away the facility would go. Of course a better facility would be faster, require less ore, and have the ability to use better blueprints.
I'd recommend giving each blueprint a "tech level" value based on the complexity of the item. A phased blaster could have a tech level of 3 and a Valkyrie could have a tech level of 10. Manufacturing facilities would have a tech level limit on datapads they accept, more advanced facilities would take higher level blueprints. Every item would have a base tech level, and additional tech levels would be added depending on how modified the item is.
Of course, one problem I forsee with the blueprint idea is what margoth calls "MUDflation." If blueprints can be re-used then people keep coming up with better and better blueprints as time goes on.
To counter this, I would recommend making every blueprint have a trade-off. A higher tech level blueprint will be exponentially more costly in terms of time and resources. Therefore manufacturing high level items is not always a winning gamble if the market cannot support it.
On designing a blueprint:
I see two ways this could be implemented:
A) You play around with different "recipes" and (inadvertently?) produce different attributes in your product.
B) You choose what attributes you want your product to have and incur different "costs" in ore, widgets and time.
I honestly don't know which would be better... option B would probably include some sliders which could be moved around (blueprints could only be designed at stations with "research" facilities, and the range of motion on the sliders would be related to how advanced the facilities were: once again this goes back to tech level) and the cost would be displayed in an output box. Once the player was satisfied there would be a "burn blueprint" button to finalize it.
Perhaps there would be a way to combine the two methods with a "basic recipe" that varies according to the desired attributes, with the option to throw in a few "wild ingredients" that could have unforseen effects.
Again, if a player suddenly stumbles upon some high powered blueprint, it should be extremely costly in terms of time and resources; Sure a gauss cannon with a refire of 2 seconds capable of dealing 3,000 damage would be possible, but it would take an hour to craft a single one at the highest tech station, whereas you could churn out 10 regular gauss cannons in five minutes. The greater the deviation from an item's normal stats, the exponentially more costly it will be.
5. there shouls also be a way to revers engineer a widget or ship a player has aqquired.
We probably wouldn't see this until later down the road but I also like this concept; taking a crafted item and breaking it down to come up with a blueprint (would also be done at a research facility). Then you would have to be careful who you sold your crafted items to in case your secret design got leaked. However here I can see some sort of % chance to fail being practical since stealing someone else's design should always be a long shot gamble... the item in question is destroyed either way, but if you fail the reverse engineering then you don't get your blueprint. The chance of success would probably be fairly low... so you would have no qualms about an order of 10 here and there but if someone was ordering 500 units of your new design of phase blaster then you would know to be a little suspicious.
1. Players have to be able to sell and give weapons and ships to one another.
Agreed. This is fairly implicit in any sort of crafting system imho (if you spend a lot of time making stuff naturally you are going to want to sell some of it to recoup the expense)... all it would take is making equipment able to be carried as cargo. Then nothing would stop players from crafting an item, carrying it outside the station and jettisoning it for a buyer.
Later on perhaps there could be a vendor system implemented alongside the station network (mentioned in the dev wiki) where a crafter puts a certain amount of items up for sale or bid. The vendor would have the option to limit the sale by nation, guild, system, or station, and a brief description of the item would pop up in the station network of stations matching the sale criteria.
Once a buyer was found the ownership of the item would switch hands, but it would remain at the station where it was stored. The buyer could then go pick it up himself or designate a delivery mission which could be fulfilled either by another player or an NPC.
Of course this opens up the possibility of low level players acquiring high level items. I've got some ideas of how to deal with this:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/9410
The sales on the station network could be automatically limited by license level, but if weapons could be carried as cargo then nothing would stop a "behind-the-scenes" shady deal in person. Of course if the station guard scanned you with that illegal equipment, your ass is grass.
2. There needs to be an interface whereby players can designe new widgets and ships. the designes would then be represented by a "datapad widget"
This is a really cool idea. There could probably be some sort of manufacturing facility which eats ore and widgets out of your station inventory and has a slot to equip a blueprint datapad. The blueprint could be for a weapon, battery, or ship. You would slap the datapad in the slot, punch in how many you wanted, and away the facility would go. Of course a better facility would be faster, require less ore, and have the ability to use better blueprints.
I'd recommend giving each blueprint a "tech level" value based on the complexity of the item. A phased blaster could have a tech level of 3 and a Valkyrie could have a tech level of 10. Manufacturing facilities would have a tech level limit on datapads they accept, more advanced facilities would take higher level blueprints. Every item would have a base tech level, and additional tech levels would be added depending on how modified the item is.
Of course, one problem I forsee with the blueprint idea is what margoth calls "MUDflation." If blueprints can be re-used then people keep coming up with better and better blueprints as time goes on.
To counter this, I would recommend making every blueprint have a trade-off. A higher tech level blueprint will be exponentially more costly in terms of time and resources. Therefore manufacturing high level items is not always a winning gamble if the market cannot support it.
On designing a blueprint:
I see two ways this could be implemented:
A) You play around with different "recipes" and (inadvertently?) produce different attributes in your product.
B) You choose what attributes you want your product to have and incur different "costs" in ore, widgets and time.
I honestly don't know which would be better... option B would probably include some sliders which could be moved around (blueprints could only be designed at stations with "research" facilities, and the range of motion on the sliders would be related to how advanced the facilities were: once again this goes back to tech level) and the cost would be displayed in an output box. Once the player was satisfied there would be a "burn blueprint" button to finalize it.
Perhaps there would be a way to combine the two methods with a "basic recipe" that varies according to the desired attributes, with the option to throw in a few "wild ingredients" that could have unforseen effects.
Again, if a player suddenly stumbles upon some high powered blueprint, it should be extremely costly in terms of time and resources; Sure a gauss cannon with a refire of 2 seconds capable of dealing 3,000 damage would be possible, but it would take an hour to craft a single one at the highest tech station, whereas you could churn out 10 regular gauss cannons in five minutes. The greater the deviation from an item's normal stats, the exponentially more costly it will be.
5. there shouls also be a way to revers engineer a widget or ship a player has aqquired.
We probably wouldn't see this until later down the road but I also like this concept; taking a crafted item and breaking it down to come up with a blueprint (would also be done at a research facility). Then you would have to be careful who you sold your crafted items to in case your secret design got leaked. However here I can see some sort of % chance to fail being practical since stealing someone else's design should always be a long shot gamble... the item in question is destroyed either way, but if you fail the reverse engineering then you don't get your blueprint. The chance of success would probably be fairly low... so you would have no qualms about an order of 10 here and there but if someone was ordering 500 units of your new design of phase blaster then you would know to be a little suspicious.
WOW. Good stuff, guys!
I especially like the "tinkering" element of what Phaser said:
I see two ways [designing a blueprint] could be implemented:
A) You play around with different "recipes" and (inadvertently?) produce different attributes in your product... Perhaps there would be a way to combine the two methods with a "basic recipe" that varies according to the desired attributes, with the option to throw in a few "wild ingredients" that could have unforseen effects.
I love the experimentation on this. Different "plans" could be stored in datapads, which can be transported from station to station (And STOLEN posibly by nasssty pie-rats) and used to create any ship as long as either you or your guild has a "facility" at that station. (More on facilities later)
Like you both said, different facilities would have different "levels" of capacity, roughly corresponding to the license levels required to buy the "basic" item.
Level "10" empty datapads would cost like 1 million credits
Level "3" empty datapads would cost maybe 10,000 cr.
AND, if you are experimenting with formulas to make new and excting variants on things, there is a good possibility that your formula will fail and you will have wasted the datapad. So it will be tough (or at least very expensive) to improve on the best ships in the game (Valk, Prom, Maud).
OK now Facilities:
Three types of facility: storage lockers, prototyping labs, and assembly lines.
Crafting requires facilities in a station. Facilities require space. In the facility a player or a guild will need to purchase equipment that allows crafting to take place. (Like the "subspace welder" I mentioned, etc.) Different sets of equipment are required to make different items. Some pieces of equipment are small, some may take up as much space as a behemoth. Higher-level items require equipment that is more expensive and is also larger.
Perhaps equipment can be nation-specific. So that you have to venture to Sol II to purchase the "Cybernetic Armature Assembly Rack", and you must go to a Tunguska station to purchase a "Heavy Duty Mining Laser Core Driller" Equipment must be purchased and transported to its destination. (Oooh, which brings up another thing - should we be able to craft new EQUIPMENT? Which could bring up completely NEW items...)
In addition, a player or a guild will require storage and/or locker space to keep the materials on-hand that are used in the facility, and to hold the items that the facility creates.
All deveopment is done in a prototyping lab, where you can make ONE of something.
All production of prototypes is done on an assembly line, where you can make MANY of something.
Players and-or guilds pay rent for the spaces they have, Assembly lines cost 1000cr * cu of space per week. Prototyping labs cost comething like 100cr * cu of space per week. Storage Lockers cost 10cr * cu of space per week. Or whatever - the costs can be approximated later on.
A player and-or a guild can designate facilities as personal or guild-usable. (Or make them public?)
This would eliminate the need for guild stations, since guilds could have a presence at ANY station they choose to. Same goes for personal stations.
If the guild or person runs out of money, items in the facilities are sold first, starting with assembly-line facility equipment, prototyping facility equipment, and then items in the storage locker. After that, the assembly-line facility itself is closed, then the prototyping facility, then the storage locker.
This would require a small re-vamping of the guild system, where a bank account was created for each guild automatically that players could contribute to, and Cmdr/Council/LTs could draw from. Something like Solra's "Services", but one that actually works and doesn't crash all the time. >:P
The buy/sell items in the station would have to have a quantity (with back-orders?) now. So, as the assembly line churns out Valkyrie Mk. III's, more appear in the buy/sell menu in-station. Of course, you must set WHO can purchase the items, and for what price. Guilds could set limits on who can purchase these items. They can be limited to specific nations, specific guilds, or even only specific players. (For example, Borb's Battery Bazaar would sell his awesome batteries to everyone except for LeberMac if he liked.) Profits go back into the bank account of the character/guild.
I REALLY like the direction this thread is going... thank you Incarnate for opening up the forum on this one.
(But I still want prototyping to require "twitch"-based skill, and the designer gets to name the product...)
I especially like the "tinkering" element of what Phaser said:
I see two ways [designing a blueprint] could be implemented:
A) You play around with different "recipes" and (inadvertently?) produce different attributes in your product... Perhaps there would be a way to combine the two methods with a "basic recipe" that varies according to the desired attributes, with the option to throw in a few "wild ingredients" that could have unforseen effects.
I love the experimentation on this. Different "plans" could be stored in datapads, which can be transported from station to station (And STOLEN posibly by nasssty pie-rats) and used to create any ship as long as either you or your guild has a "facility" at that station. (More on facilities later)
Like you both said, different facilities would have different "levels" of capacity, roughly corresponding to the license levels required to buy the "basic" item.
Level "10" empty datapads would cost like 1 million credits
Level "3" empty datapads would cost maybe 10,000 cr.
AND, if you are experimenting with formulas to make new and excting variants on things, there is a good possibility that your formula will fail and you will have wasted the datapad. So it will be tough (or at least very expensive) to improve on the best ships in the game (Valk, Prom, Maud).
OK now Facilities:
Three types of facility: storage lockers, prototyping labs, and assembly lines.
Crafting requires facilities in a station. Facilities require space. In the facility a player or a guild will need to purchase equipment that allows crafting to take place. (Like the "subspace welder" I mentioned, etc.) Different sets of equipment are required to make different items. Some pieces of equipment are small, some may take up as much space as a behemoth. Higher-level items require equipment that is more expensive and is also larger.
Perhaps equipment can be nation-specific. So that you have to venture to Sol II to purchase the "Cybernetic Armature Assembly Rack", and you must go to a Tunguska station to purchase a "Heavy Duty Mining Laser Core Driller" Equipment must be purchased and transported to its destination. (Oooh, which brings up another thing - should we be able to craft new EQUIPMENT? Which could bring up completely NEW items...)
In addition, a player or a guild will require storage and/or locker space to keep the materials on-hand that are used in the facility, and to hold the items that the facility creates.
All deveopment is done in a prototyping lab, where you can make ONE of something.
All production of prototypes is done on an assembly line, where you can make MANY of something.
Players and-or guilds pay rent for the spaces they have, Assembly lines cost 1000cr * cu of space per week. Prototyping labs cost comething like 100cr * cu of space per week. Storage Lockers cost 10cr * cu of space per week. Or whatever - the costs can be approximated later on.
A player and-or a guild can designate facilities as personal or guild-usable. (Or make them public?)
This would eliminate the need for guild stations, since guilds could have a presence at ANY station they choose to. Same goes for personal stations.
If the guild or person runs out of money, items in the facilities are sold first, starting with assembly-line facility equipment, prototyping facility equipment, and then items in the storage locker. After that, the assembly-line facility itself is closed, then the prototyping facility, then the storage locker.
This would require a small re-vamping of the guild system, where a bank account was created for each guild automatically that players could contribute to, and Cmdr/Council/LTs could draw from. Something like Solra's "Services", but one that actually works and doesn't crash all the time. >:P
The buy/sell items in the station would have to have a quantity (with back-orders?) now. So, as the assembly line churns out Valkyrie Mk. III's, more appear in the buy/sell menu in-station. Of course, you must set WHO can purchase the items, and for what price. Guilds could set limits on who can purchase these items. They can be limited to specific nations, specific guilds, or even only specific players. (For example, Borb's Battery Bazaar would sell his awesome batteries to everyone except for LeberMac if he liked.) Profits go back into the bank account of the character/guild.
I REALLY like the direction this thread is going... thank you Incarnate for opening up the forum on this one.
(But I still want prototyping to require "twitch"-based skill, and the designer gets to name the product...)
I'm liking what I see here... it's looking like owning your own station will be a very time consuming and complex job if you want it to prosper in the community.
There's lots of ideas on what we can do, but I haven't seen a lot on the process of doing things. To emulate the real world, I'm going to try and slap together what I believe is a normal economic model of manufacturing (and try and fit in the things that will make items unique).
Crafting Items
-----------------
1. You need to choose if you want to make a full item, or a sub-component of an item.
2. If you're creating an item, you should select what class of item you want to manufacture. Weapon, Mining Beam, Ship, etc. If you're making a component, you can select the blueprints of an existing component and start manufacturing, OR invest research into it and try and make it better.
Item Creation --> You obviously need a few subcomponents to create an item. You will either need a cookie cutter blueprint of the item and it's subcomponents (purchasable from a research station). Alternatively, you can peice together the item yourself using specific subcomponent blueprints which you've invested research into in order to get more performance out of it.
Each blueprint will require stocks of different minerals and ores in order for it to be properly manufactured. Here we can put in the idea of manpower and skill for the manufacturing process. As said before, a mining station creating a cap ship wouldn't have the skilled workers required to build the ship, however they could try, and even if you've thrown a lot of research into your components, it still might end up sub-par and cost you more than it should have.
Here's where the economy comes in: You can either choose to produce each component in station (requiring more skill/manpower yet again), or you can put in orders with other stations who have the required materials in stock. NPC traders can be dispatched from station to station, or players can be hired to move the raw materials around. This is obviously facilitated via the Mission tab in station, and your progress is greatly affected by things like ion storms and piracy.
Component Creation/Research
--------------------------------
Every item in the universe should be made up of specific subcomponents required for its operation. One can choose to purchase ready made components, or decide to purchase a blueprint, optionally put additional research into it (costs time and money, but you get performance gains). Research can either be done in-house or outsourced as well. Once you've got the blueprints, you will require raw materials to manufacture it. It was mentioned before that you may also require specific items in order to work with these ores to make them suitable for your component (eg. Acid tub, cool idea). Once your components are created, then you can stock up your station with them for sale, or use them in your own item manufacturing process.
So I guess the process breakdown is:
1. Decide class of item to build
2. Get blueprints for item
3. Optionally put more research into subcomponents
4. Retreive raw materials required for subcomponents, or purchase from outside sources (if you intend on manufacturing them yourself)
4.5 Manufacture subcomponents, or purchase from outside sources
5. If you're making a full item: assemble subcomponents into item
6. Place into station inventory
Subcomponents shouldn't be extremely expensive to create, and it should be the starting market for a new station. When the station gets sufficiently large and self-sustaining, full item creation should start becoming possible.
I think with this process and crafting system, you've got a two-fold increase in trading... you can trade ores, subcomponents, blueprints, or full items. Additionally, we'd now have the capacity to outsource some of the work, which brings in a lot of player interaction. If a player or guild is really dis-interested in manufacturing large items themselves (eg. cap ships), they can contract the job out to a player owned station, and it would simply be a matter of money for the guild (which it should be... you don't bring windshields and car batteries to dealerships do you?) :) Of course, the guild can get involved by helping supply the materials to ensure a shorter manufacturing turnaround, and possibly a lower price (by selling raw items/components to the building station for free).
I guess where it really could get interesting (and very complex) is if there was a way to actually create blueprints for subcomponents... I guess that goes outside of crafting and gets into INVENTING. But that's a whole other can o' worms!
- T.K.Jode
There's lots of ideas on what we can do, but I haven't seen a lot on the process of doing things. To emulate the real world, I'm going to try and slap together what I believe is a normal economic model of manufacturing (and try and fit in the things that will make items unique).
Crafting Items
-----------------
1. You need to choose if you want to make a full item, or a sub-component of an item.
2. If you're creating an item, you should select what class of item you want to manufacture. Weapon, Mining Beam, Ship, etc. If you're making a component, you can select the blueprints of an existing component and start manufacturing, OR invest research into it and try and make it better.
Item Creation --> You obviously need a few subcomponents to create an item. You will either need a cookie cutter blueprint of the item and it's subcomponents (purchasable from a research station). Alternatively, you can peice together the item yourself using specific subcomponent blueprints which you've invested research into in order to get more performance out of it.
Each blueprint will require stocks of different minerals and ores in order for it to be properly manufactured. Here we can put in the idea of manpower and skill for the manufacturing process. As said before, a mining station creating a cap ship wouldn't have the skilled workers required to build the ship, however they could try, and even if you've thrown a lot of research into your components, it still might end up sub-par and cost you more than it should have.
Here's where the economy comes in: You can either choose to produce each component in station (requiring more skill/manpower yet again), or you can put in orders with other stations who have the required materials in stock. NPC traders can be dispatched from station to station, or players can be hired to move the raw materials around. This is obviously facilitated via the Mission tab in station, and your progress is greatly affected by things like ion storms and piracy.
Component Creation/Research
--------------------------------
Every item in the universe should be made up of specific subcomponents required for its operation. One can choose to purchase ready made components, or decide to purchase a blueprint, optionally put additional research into it (costs time and money, but you get performance gains). Research can either be done in-house or outsourced as well. Once you've got the blueprints, you will require raw materials to manufacture it. It was mentioned before that you may also require specific items in order to work with these ores to make them suitable for your component (eg. Acid tub, cool idea). Once your components are created, then you can stock up your station with them for sale, or use them in your own item manufacturing process.
So I guess the process breakdown is:
1. Decide class of item to build
2. Get blueprints for item
3. Optionally put more research into subcomponents
4. Retreive raw materials required for subcomponents, or purchase from outside sources (if you intend on manufacturing them yourself)
4.5 Manufacture subcomponents, or purchase from outside sources
5. If you're making a full item: assemble subcomponents into item
6. Place into station inventory
Subcomponents shouldn't be extremely expensive to create, and it should be the starting market for a new station. When the station gets sufficiently large and self-sustaining, full item creation should start becoming possible.
I think with this process and crafting system, you've got a two-fold increase in trading... you can trade ores, subcomponents, blueprints, or full items. Additionally, we'd now have the capacity to outsource some of the work, which brings in a lot of player interaction. If a player or guild is really dis-interested in manufacturing large items themselves (eg. cap ships), they can contract the job out to a player owned station, and it would simply be a matter of money for the guild (which it should be... you don't bring windshields and car batteries to dealerships do you?) :) Of course, the guild can get involved by helping supply the materials to ensure a shorter manufacturing turnaround, and possibly a lower price (by selling raw items/components to the building station for free).
I guess where it really could get interesting (and very complex) is if there was a way to actually create blueprints for subcomponents... I guess that goes outside of crafting and gets into INVENTING. But that's a whole other can o' worms!
- T.K.Jode
Some further thoughts on item modification in crafting:
Every item modification should come with a tradeoff. E.g. if you want your gauss cannon to do more damage, it has to have a slower refire… this would be expressed in terms of a slider in the blueprint design interface:
Rate-of-Fire |----------|----------| Damage
Each tic mark would mean a 5% tradeoff between damage and rate-of-fire, thereby keeping the overall damage per second constant (percentile tradeoffs make balancing easier imho).
However, each tic mark also adds a tech level to the item to be crafted. Say a gauss cannon had a base tech level of 5, and you were working at a tech level 8 research facility. You would pick “design blueprint” and choose “gauss cannon” as a template. You have 3 tech points to work with, meaning you could move the slider 3 places over to the right, resulting in a tech level 8 blueprint gauss cannon that did 15% more damage at a 15% slower refire.
Different research facilities would have different basic sliders available. Perhaps Oment Orbital lets me trade energy efficiency for mass, but I have to go to an Axia research station to get shot velocity at a cost to damage. Keep in mind that the more drastic I make these tradeoffs in my design, the more costly my item will be.
Here is where wild ingredients come in… there would be a few slots in the bottom of the design interface to add additional trade widgets like cooling systems, phase arrays, or targeting computers. You would need to have these widgets physically present at the research facility along with a prototype weapon and a blueprint for that weapon. These wild ingredients would make additional sliders become available. By adding a 1 to 1 ratio of cooling systems and phase arrays to the design, this slider might pop up:
Damage |----------|----------| Energy Effeciency
Or a 1 to 2 ratio of targeting computers and silksteel might yield:
Mass Reduction |----------|----------| Autoaim
The range of the slider would increase with the number of wild ingredients added to the design. Of course, every tic mark would mean an extra tech level, so our example gauss cannon would still be capped at a 15% reduction in mass with a 15% reduction in autoaim.
Only certain combinations of wild ingredients at certain ratios for certain weapons would yield these additional sliders, so discovering them would be a task in and of itself. Once the additional design mods were made, the blueprint for your prototype weapon would be changed.
Now going back to our example, once you had the final level 8 blueprint you would take it to a manufacturing facility, where you are keeping your raw materials in bulk. You slap the blueprint in the slot, and set the facility to work. Manufacturing facilities also have a tech level, which affects the time and ore needed to craft the item. Operating at maximum level, let’s say it takes a manufacturing facility 1 hour and 50 ore <x> and 50 ore <y> to make a single gauss cannon (these levels could be different for different basic weapon types), plus any wild ingredients mandated in the blueprint. For every tech level the manufacturing facility has above the blueprint, the time to craft is cut in half, and the base ore requirement is reduced by 10%.
Let’s say this manufacturing facility has a tech level of 10. To craft the example tech level 8 gauss cannon it would take 15 minutes, and 41 ore <x> 41 ore <y> plus the wild ingredients. The cost in credits would be based on the amount of time the facility is running and the tech level of the facility (the cost would double with every tech level so the credit price for any given item would remain constant). Say 500 credits per minute for a tech level 10 facility…. so using the facility to make the modified gauss cannon would take 7,500 credits.
(A basic gauss cannon would require 30 ore, 2 minutes, and 1,000 credits)
Every item modification should come with a tradeoff. E.g. if you want your gauss cannon to do more damage, it has to have a slower refire… this would be expressed in terms of a slider in the blueprint design interface:
Rate-of-Fire |----------|----------| Damage
Each tic mark would mean a 5% tradeoff between damage and rate-of-fire, thereby keeping the overall damage per second constant (percentile tradeoffs make balancing easier imho).
However, each tic mark also adds a tech level to the item to be crafted. Say a gauss cannon had a base tech level of 5, and you were working at a tech level 8 research facility. You would pick “design blueprint” and choose “gauss cannon” as a template. You have 3 tech points to work with, meaning you could move the slider 3 places over to the right, resulting in a tech level 8 blueprint gauss cannon that did 15% more damage at a 15% slower refire.
Different research facilities would have different basic sliders available. Perhaps Oment Orbital lets me trade energy efficiency for mass, but I have to go to an Axia research station to get shot velocity at a cost to damage. Keep in mind that the more drastic I make these tradeoffs in my design, the more costly my item will be.
Here is where wild ingredients come in… there would be a few slots in the bottom of the design interface to add additional trade widgets like cooling systems, phase arrays, or targeting computers. You would need to have these widgets physically present at the research facility along with a prototype weapon and a blueprint for that weapon. These wild ingredients would make additional sliders become available. By adding a 1 to 1 ratio of cooling systems and phase arrays to the design, this slider might pop up:
Damage |----------|----------| Energy Effeciency
Or a 1 to 2 ratio of targeting computers and silksteel might yield:
Mass Reduction |----------|----------| Autoaim
The range of the slider would increase with the number of wild ingredients added to the design. Of course, every tic mark would mean an extra tech level, so our example gauss cannon would still be capped at a 15% reduction in mass with a 15% reduction in autoaim.
Only certain combinations of wild ingredients at certain ratios for certain weapons would yield these additional sliders, so discovering them would be a task in and of itself. Once the additional design mods were made, the blueprint for your prototype weapon would be changed.
Now going back to our example, once you had the final level 8 blueprint you would take it to a manufacturing facility, where you are keeping your raw materials in bulk. You slap the blueprint in the slot, and set the facility to work. Manufacturing facilities also have a tech level, which affects the time and ore needed to craft the item. Operating at maximum level, let’s say it takes a manufacturing facility 1 hour and 50 ore <x> and 50 ore <y> to make a single gauss cannon (these levels could be different for different basic weapon types), plus any wild ingredients mandated in the blueprint. For every tech level the manufacturing facility has above the blueprint, the time to craft is cut in half, and the base ore requirement is reduced by 10%.
Let’s say this manufacturing facility has a tech level of 10. To craft the example tech level 8 gauss cannon it would take 15 minutes, and 41 ore <x> 41 ore <y> plus the wild ingredients. The cost in credits would be based on the amount of time the facility is running and the tech level of the facility (the cost would double with every tech level so the credit price for any given item would remain constant). Say 500 credits per minute for a tech level 10 facility…. so using the facility to make the modified gauss cannon would take 7,500 credits.
(A basic gauss cannon would require 30 ore, 2 minutes, and 1,000 credits)
AND: (I think this is under the "Ramifications", because a working economy will be an integral part of any good crafting system.)
Along the lines of what Crip said earlier, the normal items that you see in-station should be the result of NPC's doing their daily work. This will tie in to the availability of items, and make NPC miners and traders far more important.
For example:
Jallik Garden (Jallik C-12) sells Heliocene. It usually has an on-hand stock of Heliocene somewhere from say, 1000 to 2000 cu, but this can be bought-out. There is a cadre of 10 Itani NPC miners in Moths that ply the Heliocene locations of Jallik and report back to Jallik Garden with their stores of Heliocene on a regular basis.
They are escorted by a strike force, due to the nature of their cargo.
If these NPC's are killed, it takes them 2 hours to respawn and during that time the supply of Heliocene in Jallik could crash, raising prices thru the roof.
Players can choose to take up the slack and mine heliocene in Jallik or to profiteer, selling Heliocene taken from Helios or whatnot.
The stations can be assumed to have unlimited storage space for NPC's.
This way, the crafting that is done in stations and by players/guilds has a REAL effect on the universe.
NPC's that deliver goods from station to station no longer are just targets for the casual traveller to pop as they zoom past. They are a working part of the overall economic system: if they don't make their deliveries, some station somewhere will not get what they need.
Imagine that a player needs steel to make his new "Wave Motion Gun" that he has crafted. He has never needed to go find steel because the station has always had enough supply. But he logs in one day and discovers that his home station in Edras is out of steel.
He checks the transport logs and none of the usual steel shipments from Verasi are making it to Edras. Investigating, he finds the pirates "0" and "Project Ragnarok" swiping the steel for a Syndicate project down in Odia. He blows them up and takes the steel back, and notifies [VPR] that pirate activity is disrupting the economy.
As a side effect, the devs will need to make metals much more prevalent in asteroids than they are now. Can't have NPC's mining our favorite roids, and of COURSE keeping the roid fields clear of bots will become a MUCH higher priority.
I think the creation of NPC characters should be a dynamic thing, controlled by a similar "learning AI". If a station in Pelatus needs Heliocene, it will have to travel to Jallik to get it. Hence Helio will be more expensive in Pelatus than in Jallik.
If a character builds a facility in Pelatus and builds something requiring large amounts of Heliocene, new Trader NPC's are spawned by the station AI to travel to Jallik, purchase the Heliocene, and bring it back. Sensing greater demand, the Jallik station spawns more heliocene-mining Bots to go out and mine more, which requires more security, which makes the overall price for Heliocene in Jallik go up.
Or perhaps the Pelatus Station AI spawns mining NPC's to travel directly to Jallik to mine the asteroids and bring it back.
Players can offset the pricing by going to Jallik themselves and mining, then bringing the Heliocene back to Pelatus and putting it in their storage locker. Since the crafting engine will draw from the player's storage locker first (before it buys helio from the station AI), the demand will drop and those NPC's might not need to be spawned again.
Is this getting too complex?
Seems to me that once a few simple supply and demand rules are implemented, and the "trigger" levels are fine-tuned, the economy will run like a charm.
Oh, and what about having a "quality" rating for EVERYTHING? From 0 to 100. The Heliocene in Jallik would be 70% to 80% quality, and the Heliocene from Helios would be 95% to 100% quality.
Therefore, some items (Like say, our "Wave Motion Gun") would require that components be of high quality, lesser raw materials or components would not work when trying to make the item. (Or, if used, would result in an unworkable item, ruining the work and wasting time & materials.)
OK I have to stop thinking about this and get back to work.
Along the lines of what Crip said earlier, the normal items that you see in-station should be the result of NPC's doing their daily work. This will tie in to the availability of items, and make NPC miners and traders far more important.
For example:
Jallik Garden (Jallik C-12) sells Heliocene. It usually has an on-hand stock of Heliocene somewhere from say, 1000 to 2000 cu, but this can be bought-out. There is a cadre of 10 Itani NPC miners in Moths that ply the Heliocene locations of Jallik and report back to Jallik Garden with their stores of Heliocene on a regular basis.
They are escorted by a strike force, due to the nature of their cargo.
If these NPC's are killed, it takes them 2 hours to respawn and during that time the supply of Heliocene in Jallik could crash, raising prices thru the roof.
Players can choose to take up the slack and mine heliocene in Jallik or to profiteer, selling Heliocene taken from Helios or whatnot.
The stations can be assumed to have unlimited storage space for NPC's.
This way, the crafting that is done in stations and by players/guilds has a REAL effect on the universe.
NPC's that deliver goods from station to station no longer are just targets for the casual traveller to pop as they zoom past. They are a working part of the overall economic system: if they don't make their deliveries, some station somewhere will not get what they need.
Imagine that a player needs steel to make his new "Wave Motion Gun" that he has crafted. He has never needed to go find steel because the station has always had enough supply. But he logs in one day and discovers that his home station in Edras is out of steel.
He checks the transport logs and none of the usual steel shipments from Verasi are making it to Edras. Investigating, he finds the pirates "0" and "Project Ragnarok" swiping the steel for a Syndicate project down in Odia. He blows them up and takes the steel back, and notifies [VPR] that pirate activity is disrupting the economy.
As a side effect, the devs will need to make metals much more prevalent in asteroids than they are now. Can't have NPC's mining our favorite roids, and of COURSE keeping the roid fields clear of bots will become a MUCH higher priority.
I think the creation of NPC characters should be a dynamic thing, controlled by a similar "learning AI". If a station in Pelatus needs Heliocene, it will have to travel to Jallik to get it. Hence Helio will be more expensive in Pelatus than in Jallik.
If a character builds a facility in Pelatus and builds something requiring large amounts of Heliocene, new Trader NPC's are spawned by the station AI to travel to Jallik, purchase the Heliocene, and bring it back. Sensing greater demand, the Jallik station spawns more heliocene-mining Bots to go out and mine more, which requires more security, which makes the overall price for Heliocene in Jallik go up.
Or perhaps the Pelatus Station AI spawns mining NPC's to travel directly to Jallik to mine the asteroids and bring it back.
Players can offset the pricing by going to Jallik themselves and mining, then bringing the Heliocene back to Pelatus and putting it in their storage locker. Since the crafting engine will draw from the player's storage locker first (before it buys helio from the station AI), the demand will drop and those NPC's might not need to be spawned again.
Is this getting too complex?
Seems to me that once a few simple supply and demand rules are implemented, and the "trigger" levels are fine-tuned, the economy will run like a charm.
Oh, and what about having a "quality" rating for EVERYTHING? From 0 to 100. The Heliocene in Jallik would be 70% to 80% quality, and the Heliocene from Helios would be 95% to 100% quality.
Therefore, some items (Like say, our "Wave Motion Gun") would require that components be of high quality, lesser raw materials or components would not work when trying to make the item. (Or, if used, would result in an unworkable item, ruining the work and wasting time & materials.)
OK I have to stop thinking about this and get back to work.
Awesome ideas Phaser & tkjode. Outstanding.
I love this game...
I love this game...
LeberMac, that rundown of how the economy should work is exactly what I was aiming at, excellent explaination :)
This is great, I think the players are pretty much united on the whole deal:
- Crafting will hinge upon a working and stable economy
- Player owned stations will create the demand, players and NPC's can be the supply, trade missions+mining will be more meaningful
- Stations 'tech levels' will determine the quality of items
- Stations 'specialties' (eg. mining, research) will determine their skills in manufacturing
- Research (by station scientists) and experimentation (by players) can enhance the characteristics and attributes of an item
- Players will have the ability to make simple trade-offs on their items (eg. Damage vs. firing rate) without the need for research.
- Datapads will contain blueprints for items/components, with a cooresponding LEVEL for the item/component it contains.
- Stations should require manufacturing/refinement equipment in order to build components/items.
Now, here's a question... when you see all of that together, it's obvious that full item creation needs more than just manufacturing skill... should a single station be able to master all of the skills required to create an uber item, or should there be ceilings on the skills involved?
Stations have staff, a finite number. Stations may be able to grow (to a certain logical size). The stations size determines the amount of staff, and the station tech level should be reflective of the skills of said staff.
What skills should there be for manufacturing? Well, so far, I see:
- Research (Research/Science Stations) Determines how quickly your blueprints can be improved by having scientists research it
- Mineral/Ore Refinement (Mining Stations) Determines how quickly your raw materials can be refined/processed into the good stuff for components
- Labour (Any Station) Determines how quickly your components are manufactured
- Tech (Any Station) Determines the overall level of advanced technology available at the station at the disposal of the staff, and determines how much the stations time is worth. Also, if the tech is too low for the blueprint you send, the item may be rejected or built below spec.
SO, to conclude: Can a single station be awesome at everything?
Eg. Tech level 20 station with Level 20 mining staff, Level 20 Labourers, Level 20 Scientists.. that can churn out a Large Port Omega Beam Cannon Mk. XI every 30 minutes for the low low price of $1,000,000cr each?
Personally, I think the station skills should be much like the player skills... as you get higher up, it takes longer to reach the next level. Plus with a finite amount of staff, even the largest stations should have manpower issues at really high levels. Being great at everything SHOULD take a lot of people and a lot of time to get good, and a very large station could get there, but only the most dedicated players who put lots of time and money into their station should be able to get into that league.
Opinions?
- Crafting will hinge upon a working and stable economy
- Player owned stations will create the demand, players and NPC's can be the supply, trade missions+mining will be more meaningful
- Stations 'tech levels' will determine the quality of items
- Stations 'specialties' (eg. mining, research) will determine their skills in manufacturing
- Research (by station scientists) and experimentation (by players) can enhance the characteristics and attributes of an item
- Players will have the ability to make simple trade-offs on their items (eg. Damage vs. firing rate) without the need for research.
- Datapads will contain blueprints for items/components, with a cooresponding LEVEL for the item/component it contains.
- Stations should require manufacturing/refinement equipment in order to build components/items.
Now, here's a question... when you see all of that together, it's obvious that full item creation needs more than just manufacturing skill... should a single station be able to master all of the skills required to create an uber item, or should there be ceilings on the skills involved?
Stations have staff, a finite number. Stations may be able to grow (to a certain logical size). The stations size determines the amount of staff, and the station tech level should be reflective of the skills of said staff.
What skills should there be for manufacturing? Well, so far, I see:
- Research (Research/Science Stations) Determines how quickly your blueprints can be improved by having scientists research it
- Mineral/Ore Refinement (Mining Stations) Determines how quickly your raw materials can be refined/processed into the good stuff for components
- Labour (Any Station) Determines how quickly your components are manufactured
- Tech (Any Station) Determines the overall level of advanced technology available at the station at the disposal of the staff, and determines how much the stations time is worth. Also, if the tech is too low for the blueprint you send, the item may be rejected or built below spec.
SO, to conclude: Can a single station be awesome at everything?
Eg. Tech level 20 station with Level 20 mining staff, Level 20 Labourers, Level 20 Scientists.. that can churn out a Large Port Omega Beam Cannon Mk. XI every 30 minutes for the low low price of $1,000,000cr each?
Personally, I think the station skills should be much like the player skills... as you get higher up, it takes longer to reach the next level. Plus with a finite amount of staff, even the largest stations should have manpower issues at really high levels. Being great at everything SHOULD take a lot of people and a lot of time to get good, and a very large station could get there, but only the most dedicated players who put lots of time and money into their station should be able to get into that league.
Opinions?
Very nice summation, tkjode...
I agree that it shouldn't be economically feasable for one station to have awesome levels in everything (unless its a gigantic city station that takes up an entire sector, and even then it should have some drawbacks). Specialization is much more effective... hence research, manufacturing, mining, orbital stations etc. I also like the idea of hiring research and technical staff... heh heh this is sounding more like X-Com by the minute. I wonder if any of the devs ever played that game...
One thing we oughta keep in mind is that while the quality of crafted items may vary, the opportunity cost of these items should remain the same. I.e. we don't want to fall into the trap of crafted items getting better and better as months go on... leading to "MUDflation." As mentioned before, I think assigning everything a tech level and associating opportunity cost with that level could be a good way to keep things in check.
I agree that it shouldn't be economically feasable for one station to have awesome levels in everything (unless its a gigantic city station that takes up an entire sector, and even then it should have some drawbacks). Specialization is much more effective... hence research, manufacturing, mining, orbital stations etc. I also like the idea of hiring research and technical staff... heh heh this is sounding more like X-Com by the minute. I wonder if any of the devs ever played that game...
One thing we oughta keep in mind is that while the quality of crafted items may vary, the opportunity cost of these items should remain the same. I.e. we don't want to fall into the trap of crafted items getting better and better as months go on... leading to "MUDflation." As mentioned before, I think assigning everything a tech level and associating opportunity cost with that level could be a good way to keep things in check.
I think Capitals like SolII and UIT Senate and Itan should have uber stations. But it should trickle down to nothing from there as you move farther away from your home system. Corvus should have at least one uber station as well for those who screw up there factions with all nations.
At the same time though, the waiting list for items at those stations should be longer, but would be of a high quality once completed, whatever it is.
I'm kind of bummed though that your taking the actual construction aspect away from the player. It's basically that we are STILL just ferring crap from point A to point B. I understand that a lot of people didn't like that they had to click and move click and move just to create it like in EQ, but there are others that find that kind of fun. Is there anyway to incorporate any of that into this scheme that you've all come up with?
At the same time though, the waiting list for items at those stations should be longer, but would be of a high quality once completed, whatever it is.
I'm kind of bummed though that your taking the actual construction aspect away from the player. It's basically that we are STILL just ferring crap from point A to point B. I understand that a lot of people didn't like that they had to click and move click and move just to create it like in EQ, but there are others that find that kind of fun. Is there anyway to incorporate any of that into this scheme that you've all come up with?
Of course there is.... it could be done at any point in the process really...
It's just always been my humble opinion that in general "Minigames" are not a good thing. They only serve to distract from the rest of the game, fracturing it rather than unifying it. Of course I could be wrong... Pazaak was one of my favorite distractions in KOTOR...
Then again KOTOR had a team of 50. Given Vendetta's relatively limited resources I tend to think it'd be better if the devs spent time tying everything together than developing additional mini-games. The heart and soul of Vendetta is the physics engine.. it's damn gorgeous. Why else have we kept such a dedicated following even through periods of very little content? The more the devs can capitalize on that the better.
Once we have a "real" economy running and there's some strategy involved in choosing where to mine and what sectors to clear and what to craft and trade and build, it won't just be "ferrying crap from point A to point B"
It's just always been my humble opinion that in general "Minigames" are not a good thing. They only serve to distract from the rest of the game, fracturing it rather than unifying it. Of course I could be wrong... Pazaak was one of my favorite distractions in KOTOR...
Then again KOTOR had a team of 50. Given Vendetta's relatively limited resources I tend to think it'd be better if the devs spent time tying everything together than developing additional mini-games. The heart and soul of Vendetta is the physics engine.. it's damn gorgeous. Why else have we kept such a dedicated following even through periods of very little content? The more the devs can capitalize on that the better.
Once we have a "real" economy running and there's some strategy involved in choosing where to mine and what sectors to clear and what to craft and trade and build, it won't just be "ferrying crap from point A to point B"
what I mean is, why can't I be the one learning how to refine ore, since I'm a miner. If we are to have player owned stations, and potentially our own refineries, why wouldn't it be important to be able to do these types of activities yourself. This way there is a new player skill tree. A Crafting skill, one for refining, research, manufacturing. These player controled stations, will the guilds that own them have to pay a staff of workers to do all this for them when they could do it themselves?
I liked going out and collecting the ingredients for beer and then sitting in front of the firmantation barrel and making it, then turning around and handing it out to friends after a raid on a dragons layer, that was fun. Though I know that is completely different, it would still be nice, to go out, mine some ore, take it to a refinery, grind it down, smelt it, cool and shape it into usable sheets of metal or other part configurations, then take it to a different station that has an assembly line, put in my components, have it generate the next level component, take that to a finishing work station to equip the electronic components, then take it to the ship yard and have it equipped to my ship or a friends for that matter, and away we go. That is the fun part to me, not just the beginning part of just collecting the raw elements alone. Or maybe that's what you've all said and I just don't understand. In either case, this is going to be a while anyway.
I liked going out and collecting the ingredients for beer and then sitting in front of the firmantation barrel and making it, then turning around and handing it out to friends after a raid on a dragons layer, that was fun. Though I know that is completely different, it would still be nice, to go out, mine some ore, take it to a refinery, grind it down, smelt it, cool and shape it into usable sheets of metal or other part configurations, then take it to a different station that has an assembly line, put in my components, have it generate the next level component, take that to a finishing work station to equip the electronic components, then take it to the ship yard and have it equipped to my ship or a friends for that matter, and away we go. That is the fun part to me, not just the beginning part of just collecting the raw elements alone. Or maybe that's what you've all said and I just don't understand. In either case, this is going to be a while anyway.
I think the key to having a good economy is having ways in and out at every level. This means that you don't necessarily have to use your refined supplies to craft, but can sell them for a profit as well.
What about three grades of ore?
1) Raw Ore
Extracted from asteroids. Low-purity, low-value stock.
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Raw can be sold as-is for a little quick cash, or taken to a refinery, which turns it into Refined at a 2:1 ratio. That is, put in 40 Raw Xith (or whatever), and get 20 Refined out. Additionally, there is a relatively cheap refinery charge. Refineries are common at fringe mining stations and most nation capitals.
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2) Refined Ore
Raw ore that has been taken to a refinery. Can be sold for 3x more quick cash than raw ore, or taken to either an Advanced Refinery or a Factory.
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If taken to a Factory, the player may use their Refined ore to manufacture various low-to-medium-quality products, such as simple blasters or rocket launchers. Since you provide the materials, you can craft and tweak specs in the manner laid out earlier.
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If taken to an Advanced Refinery, ore is refined again at a 2:1 ratio. They cannot process raw ore. The end result of advanced refining is half as much Purified ore as the Refined you put in. Additionally, there is a reasonable refinery charge. Advanced Refineries are only found at large mining stations in the core systems.
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3) Purified Ore
Acquired by bringing Refined Ore an Advanced Refinery. Can be sold for 3x as much quick cash as Refined ore, or taken to an Advanced Factory or Lab.
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If taken to an Advanced Factory, the ore can be used to craft more advanced weapons, whose stats may be tweaked.
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If taken to a Lab, it may be used to craft batteries and boost engines, whose stats may be tweaked.
Under this system, the actual spaceframe of ships couldn't be tweaked, and this is probably for the better, given the time that's gone into balancing one frame against another.
What about three grades of ore?
1) Raw Ore
Extracted from asteroids. Low-purity, low-value stock.
----------
Raw can be sold as-is for a little quick cash, or taken to a refinery, which turns it into Refined at a 2:1 ratio. That is, put in 40 Raw Xith (or whatever), and get 20 Refined out. Additionally, there is a relatively cheap refinery charge. Refineries are common at fringe mining stations and most nation capitals.
----------
2) Refined Ore
Raw ore that has been taken to a refinery. Can be sold for 3x more quick cash than raw ore, or taken to either an Advanced Refinery or a Factory.
----------
If taken to a Factory, the player may use their Refined ore to manufacture various low-to-medium-quality products, such as simple blasters or rocket launchers. Since you provide the materials, you can craft and tweak specs in the manner laid out earlier.
----------
----------
If taken to an Advanced Refinery, ore is refined again at a 2:1 ratio. They cannot process raw ore. The end result of advanced refining is half as much Purified ore as the Refined you put in. Additionally, there is a reasonable refinery charge. Advanced Refineries are only found at large mining stations in the core systems.
----------
3) Purified Ore
Acquired by bringing Refined Ore an Advanced Refinery. Can be sold for 3x as much quick cash as Refined ore, or taken to an Advanced Factory or Lab.
----------
If taken to an Advanced Factory, the ore can be used to craft more advanced weapons, whose stats may be tweaked.
----------
If taken to a Lab, it may be used to craft batteries and boost engines, whose stats may be tweaked.
Under this system, the actual spaceframe of ships couldn't be tweaked, and this is probably for the better, given the time that's gone into balancing one frame against another.