Forums » Suggestions
Crafting Client???
What about a separate client (that would tie into VO) that could be accessed outside of VO. Like say a small windowed mode program with a simple interface.
I think this would work well if "mini-games" are used. Guild could create the client any way they see fit, and not have to change the UI for VO to accomodate crafting.
Many that don't want to deal with launching the main game (or more to the point- those that get a few minutes at work, and could hide a small window when the owner comes into the room...lol) just to do some crafting can fire up the CC and create a few things (or manage, etc) for when we have time to log on to VO and use what we've crafted.
Perhaps this could just be an option, where the CC (Crafting Client) could also be accessed in VO by a button in-station that would link to the separate Client.
It was just a thought of mine, I don't have much to elaborate. I was playing around with a few new widgets for the mac, and thought how cool it would be to have a *mini-game* of VO, that led to the crafting client idea...
What about a separate client (that would tie into VO) that could be accessed outside of VO. Like say a small windowed mode program with a simple interface.
I think this would work well if "mini-games" are used. Guild could create the client any way they see fit, and not have to change the UI for VO to accomodate crafting.
Many that don't want to deal with launching the main game (or more to the point- those that get a few minutes at work, and could hide a small window when the owner comes into the room...lol) just to do some crafting can fire up the CC and create a few things (or manage, etc) for when we have time to log on to VO and use what we've crafted.
Perhaps this could just be an option, where the CC (Crafting Client) could also be accessed in VO by a button in-station that would link to the separate Client.
It was just a thought of mine, I don't have much to elaborate. I was playing around with a few new widgets for the mac, and thought how cool it would be to have a *mini-game* of VO, that led to the crafting client idea...
Last night I created a new thread about Stations, but I think it probably would have been more appropriate to post in this thread.
I like the idea of having the crafting system and stations be driving factors in PvP conflict.
When someone (player/guild) builds a station it should occupy a territory where no other stations can be built. The basic station could just be a place for ships to dock. Then as crafting modules are added onto the station its surrounding territory is expanded. There could be modules for processing each of the ore types, and then modules for combining different processed ores into alloys, and then modules for crafting items from the metals.
Here is a scenario:
A guild wants to build a station to make Widget A. Widget A requires three different metals to produce. The ore for two of those metals can be found in the sector where they build their station. They start with a basic station, then add modules for processing the two ores into metals. The third metal has to be imported from somewhere else. Then, lets say they want to add the module for building Widget A, but that would cause the area of influence for their station to overlap with a neighboring station. The guild then must raid the neighboring station and destroy one of its modules to make room for their own expansion.
Edit: After reading the rest of the thread more closely I think the 'raids' on neighboring stations could be adapted to the siege idea. Each module could require a steady stream of resources to maintain. If that stream is interrupted, the module shuts down and makes room for neighboring stations to expand. If someone wants to be sure their station survives while they are offline, all they need to do is make sure it is well stocked with resources. The more advanced the module, the more demanding its resource requirement.
I think this could lead to some awesome large scale, extended PvP conflicts as people battle for turf.
I like the idea of having the crafting system and stations be driving factors in PvP conflict.
When someone (player/guild) builds a station it should occupy a territory where no other stations can be built. The basic station could just be a place for ships to dock. Then as crafting modules are added onto the station its surrounding territory is expanded. There could be modules for processing each of the ore types, and then modules for combining different processed ores into alloys, and then modules for crafting items from the metals.
Here is a scenario:
A guild wants to build a station to make Widget A. Widget A requires three different metals to produce. The ore for two of those metals can be found in the sector where they build their station. They start with a basic station, then add modules for processing the two ores into metals. The third metal has to be imported from somewhere else. Then, lets say they want to add the module for building Widget A, but that would cause the area of influence for their station to overlap with a neighboring station. The guild then must raid the neighboring station and destroy one of its modules to make room for their own expansion.
Edit: After reading the rest of the thread more closely I think the 'raids' on neighboring stations could be adapted to the siege idea. Each module could require a steady stream of resources to maintain. If that stream is interrupted, the module shuts down and makes room for neighboring stations to expand. If someone wants to be sure their station survives while they are offline, all they need to do is make sure it is well stocked with resources. The more advanced the module, the more demanding its resource requirement.
I think this could lead to some awesome large scale, extended PvP conflicts as people battle for turf.
I can't quite imagine an intergrated player crafting system at this point, but I very much like the idea of specialized stations, Incarnate. Especially if tied to an ecomony-based system where mining and traders become a key part of the game (rather than soley as a player revenue source). It would make the game much more interesting to see, for example, a sector exhaust missle components or batteries until such a time that a particular resource is brought in. Players would tend, at that point, to take a added interest in making sure their favorite areas were well supplied.
This thread is going back on page 1. >_>
Yay! Thanx Unca Dave!
I think that any crafting system will not be open-ended. Players will not be able to create just any 'ol thing.
The crafting will be a game-determined "technology tree", formulas for all items will be pre-set in the game mechanics. But this technology tree would be HUGE, enough to occupy a playerbase for YEARS. Items will be "there" for the discovering, if the players experiment enough in crafting.
(Kind of like the "Fog of war" or the "Black areas" before you explore a map. The places are there, but you have to work to find them, and work to figure out how to get them.)
I dunno if making this gigantic tech tree is more work, or if reviewing EVERY new crafted item would be more work. Hrm. Thoughts?
I think that any crafting system will not be open-ended. Players will not be able to create just any 'ol thing.
The crafting will be a game-determined "technology tree", formulas for all items will be pre-set in the game mechanics. But this technology tree would be HUGE, enough to occupy a playerbase for YEARS. Items will be "there" for the discovering, if the players experiment enough in crafting.
(Kind of like the "Fog of war" or the "Black areas" before you explore a map. The places are there, but you have to work to find them, and work to figure out how to get them.)
I dunno if making this gigantic tech tree is more work, or if reviewing EVERY new crafted item would be more work. Hrm. Thoughts?
94% awesome.
I like the idea of having to learn the properties of each component so as to be able to design your own stuff, and having the game effectively construct its own tech tree dependant on combinations of components. Hell, it may even be possible to make the game auto-generate its tech tree as new components/technology become available. Actually, this seems like the only sustainable way to do it.
I like the idea of having to learn the properties of each component so as to be able to design your own stuff, and having the game effectively construct its own tech tree dependant on combinations of components. Hell, it may even be possible to make the game auto-generate its tech tree as new components/technology become available. Actually, this seems like the only sustainable way to do it.
Not to be a wet rag, but I strongly disagree with having any sort of advancing "tech tree" in an MMORPG unless the new technology becomes simultaneously available to all players. Tech trees work well in a single player game, but not an MMO. Can you imagine how out-classed a new player would be starting with years-old weaponry?
Well, IMO newly developed technology shouldn't become available universally simultaneously, but it should spread over time. So those players actively involved in researching new and better technology would be the first to get the benefit of it, but eventually everyone will. So new players won't be years behind, but rather weeks behind. I'd be OK with that.
Allright, if there's no tech-tree type of system, how is progress controlled? To play Devil's Advocate, what controls do you put on players to avoid things like the "UberCannon 5000"?
• Is there a guide or dev review process before the item can be made? Like a "blueprint review"?
• Is there some kind of "point" system that can be allocated to items (A level 1 item can have 100 points, level 2 item has 200 points, etc.)
• Are there some kind of "formula" limits placed on items? Like, adding Xith to your railgun construction is effective and increases performance until you've added 10 cu of xith, after that it drops back down, a kind of bell curve. The other components necessary for making a rail gun would have bell curves at different points, so finding the "optimum" point inside all the bell curves would be an art.
I dunno. Again, I think I'm just ripping off ideas from ATITD, which I think does crafting the best out of any other MMORPG game I've ever played. (Heck that's all there is to DO in the game, it's a giant game of crafting basically.) I strongly suggest you all try it out. http://www.atitd.net/home/
(Just don't play it TOO much. Remember to come back HERE when you're done...)
• Is there a guide or dev review process before the item can be made? Like a "blueprint review"?
• Is there some kind of "point" system that can be allocated to items (A level 1 item can have 100 points, level 2 item has 200 points, etc.)
• Are there some kind of "formula" limits placed on items? Like, adding Xith to your railgun construction is effective and increases performance until you've added 10 cu of xith, after that it drops back down, a kind of bell curve. The other components necessary for making a rail gun would have bell curves at different points, so finding the "optimum" point inside all the bell curves would be an art.
I dunno. Again, I think I'm just ripping off ideas from ATITD, which I think does crafting the best out of any other MMORPG game I've ever played. (Heck that's all there is to DO in the game, it's a giant game of crafting basically.) I strongly suggest you all try it out. http://www.atitd.net/home/
(Just don't play it TOO much. Remember to come back HERE when you're done...)
Yeah, but this isn't A Tale in the Desert, this is Vendetta Online, where PvP is unlimited. I don't think it's even possible to PK someone in ATITD, they have to be "voted off the island" or somesuch. I'm guessing an UberCannon 5000 would be far more devastating to the game environment in VO than in ATITD.
How do you keep players from creating an ubercannon 5000 without any sort of time-consuming review process? Simple: I refer (yet again) to my post on the second page of this thread...
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406?page=2#134897
The magnitude of these tradeoffs could be tweaked to make crafting worthwhile. The key phrase is "equal and opposite." That way every weapon in the game will have at least some drawbacks for each benefit and therefore no weapon will hold absolute advantage over any other. At least, that's the plan.
How do you keep players from creating an ubercannon 5000 without any sort of time-consuming review process? Simple: I refer (yet again) to my post on the second page of this thread...
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406?page=2#134897
The magnitude of these tradeoffs could be tweaked to make crafting worthwhile. The key phrase is "equal and opposite." That way every weapon in the game will have at least some drawbacks for each benefit and therefore no weapon will hold absolute advantage over any other. At least, that's the plan.
I liked your solution, Phaser. (I still like it, it's the best solution so far!)
However, it may be prone to min-maxing everything. Perhaps combining it with the point system of "level X" items. Or like you said in your post, have the "facility" where it is crafted have a tech level that allows you to make the items.
I'm just worried that we'll end up crafting ourselves into a box with perhaps only a few more really useful items, rather than the explosion of items that I think would be cool.
For example, I bet right now most players would not care too much if the game was limited to:
5 Ships: Prom, Valk, Cent, Vulture, Behemoth
5 or 6 Weapons: N3's, Gauss Mk. 2, AGT, Sunflares, Chaos Swarms (maybe mines)
3 Mining beams: I guess deniphase, iophase, or heliocene mining lasers. (?)
The natural tendency of players is to gravitate towards the min/maxing scenario. Hopefully crafting will generate so much new stuff that:
a) No one will be able to determine an "uber" ship loadout without significant and dedicated work.
b) The variety of options and the speed at which new crafted items are released will keep the game in flux, where evaluating new ships, weaps, equipment, etc becomes more like shopping in a candy store rather than sticking with the "old standby".
Comments?
However, it may be prone to min-maxing everything. Perhaps combining it with the point system of "level X" items. Or like you said in your post, have the "facility" where it is crafted have a tech level that allows you to make the items.
I'm just worried that we'll end up crafting ourselves into a box with perhaps only a few more really useful items, rather than the explosion of items that I think would be cool.
For example, I bet right now most players would not care too much if the game was limited to:
5 Ships: Prom, Valk, Cent, Vulture, Behemoth
5 or 6 Weapons: N3's, Gauss Mk. 2, AGT, Sunflares, Chaos Swarms (maybe mines)
3 Mining beams: I guess deniphase, iophase, or heliocene mining lasers. (?)
The natural tendency of players is to gravitate towards the min/maxing scenario. Hopefully crafting will generate so much new stuff that:
a) No one will be able to determine an "uber" ship loadout without significant and dedicated work.
b) The variety of options and the speed at which new crafted items are released will keep the game in flux, where evaluating new ships, weaps, equipment, etc becomes more like shopping in a candy store rather than sticking with the "old standby".
Comments?
Agreed with Phaser, with the addition that added research SHOULD be able to increase the 'overall' performance/efficiency of an item by small amounts, otherwise it's not crafting, it's kind of a cop-out where you just move sliders around to customize already existing items. And obviously any research would have an upper limit as nobody has unlimited time and funds... gains garnered from research should be semi-logarithmic, much like our license system. Kind of parallel to Leber's tech level idea... it just takes a very significant amount of work to actually make an item BETTER, rather than just change it's properties.
It's Phaser's tech level idea (not mine, credit where credit is due), and yeah, when tkjode said: it's not crafting, it's kind of a cop-out where you just move sliders around to customize already existing items.
That's pretty much what I was trying to say but I had not had enough coffee yet to do so.
That's pretty much what I was trying to say but I had not had enough coffee yet to do so.
Okay, I think you have a point...
You after all want crafting to be a worthwhile endeavor so, you know, players will actually do it...
I just want to avoid the BP syndrome.
You after all want crafting to be a worthwhile endeavor so, you know, players will actually do it...
I just want to avoid the BP syndrome.
When I say tech-tree, I don't mean that EVERY player should have to go up tech levels in order to be able to make the uber-weaponry.
What I meant was that each and every object could be used to make something depending on its properties. If you have a phase array, it will be used to make a variety of high-end energy blasters. If you have some volatile chemicals, you can have the station techies add premium aqueous ore to come up with battery acid, and have them craft the casing out of plasteel + some other thing.
Lets say you make a basic phase blaster as follows. (well-known recipe)
1) Plasteel + X ore => Low-end casing.
2) Low-end casing + phase array = phase blaster mkI.
What I suggest is to have the game determine not only quality of items from the ingredients used to craft them, but to *know* the properties of the materials.
Eg:
Duricite: A flexible, light metallic alloy which assists the production of energy-based weaponry.
Prismic intensifier: An important component in the construction of larger energy weapons in order to stabilise them.
Micro-capacitor grid: A system of tiny capacitors used to store and discharge large quantities of energy.
So:
1) Plasteel + X ore + Duricite => Durable casing.
2) Durable casing + prismic intensifier + micro-capacitor grid + phase array => Plasma Devastator. TA-DA! New recipe. :D
Am I making sense yet?
Then to craft the UBER-items, you would need to either experiment with existing components (what can I add to a phase array? Hmm, xithricite is cool, lets mix them. Yay! An ADVANCED PHASE ARRAY, I'll keep this info to myself) or travel across the galaxy to get the best quality materials.
To summarize:
The descriptions of items would be important to know what they *do* in the crafting of weaponry. Besides the well-known recipes, it should be possible for a player to experiment.
There should be a system in place where Vendetta itself can incorporate new technology into existing items because it, like the players, understands how each and every component affects the finished product...
What I meant was that each and every object could be used to make something depending on its properties. If you have a phase array, it will be used to make a variety of high-end energy blasters. If you have some volatile chemicals, you can have the station techies add premium aqueous ore to come up with battery acid, and have them craft the casing out of plasteel + some other thing.
Lets say you make a basic phase blaster as follows. (well-known recipe)
1) Plasteel + X ore => Low-end casing.
2) Low-end casing + phase array = phase blaster mkI.
What I suggest is to have the game determine not only quality of items from the ingredients used to craft them, but to *know* the properties of the materials.
Eg:
Duricite: A flexible, light metallic alloy which assists the production of energy-based weaponry.
Prismic intensifier: An important component in the construction of larger energy weapons in order to stabilise them.
Micro-capacitor grid: A system of tiny capacitors used to store and discharge large quantities of energy.
So:
1) Plasteel + X ore + Duricite => Durable casing.
2) Durable casing + prismic intensifier + micro-capacitor grid + phase array => Plasma Devastator. TA-DA! New recipe. :D
Am I making sense yet?
Then to craft the UBER-items, you would need to either experiment with existing components (what can I add to a phase array? Hmm, xithricite is cool, lets mix them. Yay! An ADVANCED PHASE ARRAY, I'll keep this info to myself) or travel across the galaxy to get the best quality materials.
To summarize:
The descriptions of items would be important to know what they *do* in the crafting of weaponry. Besides the well-known recipes, it should be possible for a player to experiment.
There should be a system in place where Vendetta itself can incorporate new technology into existing items because it, like the players, understands how each and every component affects the finished product...
^ Yeah, what UncaDave Said.
(BTW Dave get your butt to Deneb Ingame so we can fight, no you can't use your Prom.)
I'm thinking that the actual tech-tree is pre-defined. But HUGE. The devs would know the exact formula to make Phase Blasters Mk. V, that it only takes the addition of 1 cu of Lux Goods to make them. Or something oddly un-characteristic.
But yeah, UncleDave I think has hit it pretty much on the head.
(NOW, Who's gonna make this tech tree?)
(BTW Dave get your butt to Deneb Ingame so we can fight, no you can't use your Prom.)
I'm thinking that the actual tech-tree is pre-defined. But HUGE. The devs would know the exact formula to make Phase Blasters Mk. V, that it only takes the addition of 1 cu of Lux Goods to make them. Or something oddly un-characteristic.
But yeah, UncleDave I think has hit it pretty much on the head.
(NOW, Who's gonna make this tech tree?)
I acutually think the tech tree could be made fairly easily from the widgets allready in the game. A "simple" program could be used as such:
[Pulldownbox 1][Pulldownbox 2][Pulldownbox 3][Pulldownbox 4]
Each box contains a list of all widgets in the game.
1 + 2 + 3 = 4
Then, with not-too-much devtime, a whole bunch of items could be constructed.
Example:
[Xith ore][Organic solvents][Volatile chemicals][Purified xith]
[Purified xith][Plasteel][Power regulators][Personal def system]
[Personal def system][Gatling cannon][Power regulator][Advanced gatling turret]
To make stuff HARD to make (and thus make crafting CRAFTING (as opposed to mindless clicking for 15 minutes) the order has to be correct. Let me explain the logic of the stuff above:
Put xith ore in a container, apply organic solvents. Let it dissolve for a while, then add volatile chemicals to eat away the non-xith.
Put purified xith in a smelter, add plasteel to the mix and pour into molds. When cooled, supply a power regulator to take power from the ship battery and create electromagnetic pulses to drive the peices.
Take the personal def system and stick it on a mounting frame, mount the gat on it and add another power regulator to power joints between them.
Tadaa! An AGT!
Crafting the parts will give better quality stuff if the characters crafting skill is high enough.
So why would a low-level player do crafting to achieve inferior AGTs? Because they don't have the lisence to buy them pre-assembled...
The processes could be either hinted to in the description of the base widgets or in the end product, where I think the latter would be better.
They should also be purchasable as "Datapads", but for an incredible amount of money. This would create a player-to-player market for recipies.
Also, it should require different amounts of the different widgets to further complicate it.
8 xith + 10 org solv + 4 vol chem = 1 purified xith?
The quality level could also be affected by how close you are to the balance between items.
6 xith + 10 org solv + 4 vol chem = 1 purified xith, but only half the quality level it could have been if it was at the correct ammount. Same goes with the other components.
So what if someone messes up the order of the items or the amount of each widget is too far off the 100% QualityLevel, and creates something unusable? (A new widget called "Unusable chunk of metal" or "Unknown item"?)
I suggest that one of the three items that went into the crafting should be extactable from the useless widget, and the other two are lost. That way it's actually possible to mess up the process, and end-widgets could aslo be smelted down/disassembled.
"I need a power regulator... I'll yank one off this personal def system!"
Also, a station could probably have an interface where the player would drop three widgets into three slots, assign the amount of each to be used and click "mass produce". Imagine the surprise when you come back the next day and 2400 widgets of "Unusable chunk of xith residue" await your attention and the station has mass-produced it out of your stockpile of 8000 Xith ore, 10000 Organic solvents and 4000 volitile chemicals just because you added the chemicals before the solvents....
Sure, you can re-extract 2400 peices of Organic Solvents, but the rest is lost forever.
Just my 2 cents. (looks more like 2 dollars tho')
[Pulldownbox 1][Pulldownbox 2][Pulldownbox 3][Pulldownbox 4]
Each box contains a list of all widgets in the game.
1 + 2 + 3 = 4
Then, with not-too-much devtime, a whole bunch of items could be constructed.
Example:
[Xith ore][Organic solvents][Volatile chemicals][Purified xith]
[Purified xith][Plasteel][Power regulators][Personal def system]
[Personal def system][Gatling cannon][Power regulator][Advanced gatling turret]
To make stuff HARD to make (and thus make crafting CRAFTING (as opposed to mindless clicking for 15 minutes) the order has to be correct. Let me explain the logic of the stuff above:
Put xith ore in a container, apply organic solvents. Let it dissolve for a while, then add volatile chemicals to eat away the non-xith.
Put purified xith in a smelter, add plasteel to the mix and pour into molds. When cooled, supply a power regulator to take power from the ship battery and create electromagnetic pulses to drive the peices.
Take the personal def system and stick it on a mounting frame, mount the gat on it and add another power regulator to power joints between them.
Tadaa! An AGT!
Crafting the parts will give better quality stuff if the characters crafting skill is high enough.
So why would a low-level player do crafting to achieve inferior AGTs? Because they don't have the lisence to buy them pre-assembled...
The processes could be either hinted to in the description of the base widgets or in the end product, where I think the latter would be better.
They should also be purchasable as "Datapads", but for an incredible amount of money. This would create a player-to-player market for recipies.
Also, it should require different amounts of the different widgets to further complicate it.
8 xith + 10 org solv + 4 vol chem = 1 purified xith?
The quality level could also be affected by how close you are to the balance between items.
6 xith + 10 org solv + 4 vol chem = 1 purified xith, but only half the quality level it could have been if it was at the correct ammount. Same goes with the other components.
So what if someone messes up the order of the items or the amount of each widget is too far off the 100% QualityLevel, and creates something unusable? (A new widget called "Unusable chunk of metal" or "Unknown item"?)
I suggest that one of the three items that went into the crafting should be extactable from the useless widget, and the other two are lost. That way it's actually possible to mess up the process, and end-widgets could aslo be smelted down/disassembled.
"I need a power regulator... I'll yank one off this personal def system!"
Also, a station could probably have an interface where the player would drop three widgets into three slots, assign the amount of each to be used and click "mass produce". Imagine the surprise when you come back the next day and 2400 widgets of "Unusable chunk of xith residue" await your attention and the station has mass-produced it out of your stockpile of 8000 Xith ore, 10000 Organic solvents and 4000 volitile chemicals just because you added the chemicals before the solvents....
Sure, you can re-extract 2400 peices of Organic Solvents, but the rest is lost forever.
Just my 2 cents. (looks more like 2 dollars tho')
The thing is, even though that sounds really cool I suspect that some players will have nearly all the recipes figured out within 24 hours and soon a public database will become available with all existing recipes in a matter of weeks.
I'm pretty sure the devs could create more recipies.
Also, I edited my post, but forgot to keep track of changes thinking that noone would read it until after I finished the edit...
I added some complexity.
[edit]
Also, what's to stop devs from creating more widgets? That's GOTTA be easier than creating new ships...
Also, I edited my post, but forgot to keep track of changes thinking that noone would read it until after I finished the edit...
I added some complexity.
[edit]
Also, what's to stop devs from creating more widgets? That's GOTTA be easier than creating new ships...
That's probably true, Phaser.
And yeah, devs could just keep creating new things and not tell us about it... let us discover things on our own...
And yeah, devs could just keep creating new things and not tell us about it... let us discover things on our own...