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Spellcast: Yes sir, you are correct.... against SOME players there is no defence. But
against those that are better than most, any advantage, no matter how slight, is of
some real help. In a Valk I at least have the option to RUN and EVADE. In lesser ships, I'm probably toast. See what I'm saying?
against those that are better than most, any advantage, no matter how slight, is of
some real help. In a Valk I at least have the option to RUN and EVADE. In lesser ships, I'm probably toast. See what I'm saying?
I just wanted to reply to the following statement:
"I do think that the Valk should be nerfed because otherwise Vendetta may come to seem like every other MMORPG outh there"
If the devs are worrying about being like other MMOs then the practice of "nerfing" should be more of a concern. Tweaking maybe, nerfing never. I've played enough games and heard enough of other people bitching to know that nerfing helps nothing. As soon as the best item/class/ship is nerfed, the next one down becomes the most powerful. Nerfing doesn't help balance.
The way to solve balance problems is through indirect rock-paper-scissors-ing. To that end, energy weapons should be doing less damage per shot with their high rate of fire and low weight. Missles of course should be doing massive damage in single hits, though I feel that their weight should be based partly on remaining ammo.
Also, I haven't tried this yet, but has anyone else tried using any kind of seeking missile against valks? In my limited combat experience I've found that a single missile hit can really throw off a target, and the time it takes them to get their bearings you might just have a shot at taking them down. Also, you don't have to turn to get the target in your sights, you can just drop them in the water and hope they hit.
"I do think that the Valk should be nerfed because otherwise Vendetta may come to seem like every other MMORPG outh there"
If the devs are worrying about being like other MMOs then the practice of "nerfing" should be more of a concern. Tweaking maybe, nerfing never. I've played enough games and heard enough of other people bitching to know that nerfing helps nothing. As soon as the best item/class/ship is nerfed, the next one down becomes the most powerful. Nerfing doesn't help balance.
The way to solve balance problems is through indirect rock-paper-scissors-ing. To that end, energy weapons should be doing less damage per shot with their high rate of fire and low weight. Missles of course should be doing massive damage in single hits, though I feel that their weight should be based partly on remaining ammo.
Also, I haven't tried this yet, but has anyone else tried using any kind of seeking missile against valks? In my limited combat experience I've found that a single missile hit can really throw off a target, and the time it takes them to get their bearings you might just have a shot at taking them down. Also, you don't have to turn to get the target in your sights, you can just drop them in the water and hope they hit.
I wonder why the Devs have'nt responded to this post yet. Sure would like to get there word on the matter.
They've given it in the approximately 300 threads on the same topic, and on the topic of the other ships that were "uber" at one point in time. Shame on Icarus for making this, he knows that these threads went nowhere in beta, and won't go anywhere now. You're chasing your own tails in circles.
We are no longer in the beta, and to give one nation such a distinct advantage is a mistake. We have known about the Valk being "uber" for months now, and if anything the situation has got worse rather than better. I'm not going to sit in silence twiddling my thumbs regarding this subject.
I agree with you Icarus , this is a game killer for me . It's certainly the thing that made me leave other games , Jumpgate , Planetside etc... It's just not fun unless all the sides are balanced. I have only been here since retail , good if you guys posted about this problem in the beta , it obviously was'nt fixed and needed to be. This game is all about pvp , lets balance this thing and get on with it. Devs are you out there?
Indeed. The Prometheus has been vastly inferior to just about everything since its armor was nerfed from 28000 down to 10,000. We hear that it'll be fixed in the next balancing round, in the next update, that its role will come, et cetera. The point is that more than a year has passed, and there has been no fix for it. Serco must consistently deal with inferior equipment and lesser numbers. Because of the backstory, the other two nations at best tolerate us, at worst fling constant out-of-character insults and call it roleplaying.
What I'm saying is that according to the backstory and all universe development up to this point, the Serco have been treated as antagonists. While a good, well-developed antagonist is a staple of storytelling, he has little place in an MMORPG. We're not here just to be a military foil for the Itani, we need to be developed as a distinct nation with a culture that has some described positive aspects instead of as a militaristic, heartless society of homicidal cyborgs.
Once we are an actual society instead of 'the enemy' according to Vendetta Canon, we'll start to see an equal footing in ship design.
What I'm saying is that according to the backstory and all universe development up to this point, the Serco have been treated as antagonists. While a good, well-developed antagonist is a staple of storytelling, he has little place in an MMORPG. We're not here just to be a military foil for the Itani, we need to be developed as a distinct nation with a culture that has some described positive aspects instead of as a militaristic, heartless society of homicidal cyborgs.
Once we are an actual society instead of 'the enemy' according to Vendetta Canon, we'll start to see an equal footing in ship design.
You would think that "the enemy"'s special ship would be something worthy of the enemy.
ctishman: The Prom might not have been as good as the Valk pre-weights, but it could definately hold its own and win in the hands of a good pilot. Weights were the nerf, not the lowering of its hull back in pre-history. Upping it to 28k wouldn't help things at the moment, because I could still dance circles around it in a Vult, let alone a Valk. Something needs to be done to increase its agility.
ctishman: The Prom might not have been as good as the Valk pre-weights, but it could definately hold its own and win in the hands of a good pilot. Weights were the nerf, not the lowering of its hull back in pre-history. Upping it to 28k wouldn't help things at the moment, because I could still dance circles around it in a Vult, let alone a Valk. Something needs to be done to increase its agility.
Uncle Dave's hands for one ctishman, mine for two.
Mass definitely screwed the prom.
Mass definitely screwed the prom.
Starfisher, (I feel that) the point is not whether the vult or valk pilot can fly circles around the prom or not - they should - but the prom should be able to take the damage until it can get into firing position and unleash a volley of weaponry that deals a ton of damage in a relatively short period of time (while the vult or valk requires far more time to deal the same amount of damage - they are light fighters).
A single prom need not be necessarily effective against a single valk or vult, but if the valk or vult gives the prom the opportunity, it would find itself in a world of trouble. As it is now, unless the prom mounts only missiles and rockets, it cannot deal enough damage to the Valk to sufficiently offset the damage caused to it, and because rockets are so slow, and missiles have such low damage ratings coupled with bad seekers, the likelyhood of the prom actually hitting the valk in the one or two chances it gets is quite low.
As it stands really the only energy weapons that the Prom can effectively mount are the Plasma Devastator (1 and 2) and the Gatling Turret - the Plasma Devastator because it deals a lot of damage per shot, and the Gatling turret because it fires a lot of shots with good auto-targeting (well... semi-good autotargeting - it cannot hit a barrel rolling valk) - but the Prom can only mount one. Neutron blasters deal more damage per second than any of those weapons, but are absolutely unuseable on a Prom because the Prom can't maneuver to get those weapons inline with its target - while a valk or vult pilot can easily get multiple neutron blasters inline with the target. So not only can the Valk deal more damage in a second than the Prom, but it can avoid the Prom's weapons pretty easily.
In regards to the backstory, I've started writing my take on the Serco history. It will definitely show the Serco in a different light than the Itani. I hesitate to say better because there are already a lot of "concrete" instances of atrocities by the Serco recorded in the Itani history. I don't want to reveal too many of my ideas before I actually write them because they might change in the future.
A single prom need not be necessarily effective against a single valk or vult, but if the valk or vult gives the prom the opportunity, it would find itself in a world of trouble. As it is now, unless the prom mounts only missiles and rockets, it cannot deal enough damage to the Valk to sufficiently offset the damage caused to it, and because rockets are so slow, and missiles have such low damage ratings coupled with bad seekers, the likelyhood of the prom actually hitting the valk in the one or two chances it gets is quite low.
As it stands really the only energy weapons that the Prom can effectively mount are the Plasma Devastator (1 and 2) and the Gatling Turret - the Plasma Devastator because it deals a lot of damage per shot, and the Gatling turret because it fires a lot of shots with good auto-targeting (well... semi-good autotargeting - it cannot hit a barrel rolling valk) - but the Prom can only mount one. Neutron blasters deal more damage per second than any of those weapons, but are absolutely unuseable on a Prom because the Prom can't maneuver to get those weapons inline with its target - while a valk or vult pilot can easily get multiple neutron blasters inline with the target. So not only can the Valk deal more damage in a second than the Prom, but it can avoid the Prom's weapons pretty easily.
In regards to the backstory, I've started writing my take on the Serco history. It will definitely show the Serco in a different light than the Itani. I hesitate to say better because there are already a lot of "concrete" instances of atrocities by the Serco recorded in the Itani history. I don't want to reveal too many of my ideas before I actually write them because they might change in the future.
*Starfisher, (I feel that) the point is not whether the vult or valk pilot can fly circles around the prom or not - they should - but the prom should be able to take the damage until it can get into firing position and unleash a volley of weaponry that deals a ton of damage in a relatively short period of time (while the vult or valk requires far more time to deal the same amount of damage - they are light fighters).
A single prom need not be necessarily effective against a single valk or vult, but if the valk or vult gives the prom the opportunity, it would find itself in a world of trouble. As it is now, unless the prom mounts only missiles and rockets, it cannot deal enough damage to the Valk to sufficiently offset the damage caused to it, and because rockets are so slow, and missiles have such low damage ratings coupled with bad seekers, the likelyhood of the prom actually hitting the valk in the one or two chances it gets is quite low.
As it stands really the only energy weapons that the Prom can effectively mount are the Plasma Devastator (1 and 2) and the Gatling Turret - the Plasma Devastator because it deals a lot of damage per shot, and the Gatling turret because it fires a lot of shots with good auto-targeting (well... semi-good autotargeting - it cannot hit a barrel rolling valk) - but the Prom can only mount one. Neutron blasters deal more damage per second than any of those weapons, but are absolutely unuseable on a Prom because the Prom can't maneuver to get those weapons inline with its target - while a valk or vult pilot can easily get multiple neutron blasters inline with the target. So not only can the Valk deal more damage in a second than the Prom, but it can avoid the Prom's weapons pretty easily.*
exactly what i was thinking. unforentantly i am not very good at trying to bring a point acrossed when i am angered.
to quote another. "Thank you for your post CP. You are far more talented at getting these points across than myself, and you have hit the nail on the head with that post."
***
i would like everyone to pay attention to this sigment of CP's post:
"A single prom need not be necessarily effective against a single valk or vult, but if the valk or vult gives the prom the opportunity, it would find itself in a world of trouble."
this aswell:
"As it stands really the only energy weapons that the Prom can effectively mount are the Plasma Devastator (1 and 2) and the Gatling Turret - the Plasma Devastator because it deals a lot of damage per shot, and the Gatling turret because it fires a lot of shots with good auto-targeting (well... semi-good autotargeting - it cannot hit a barrel rolling valk) - but the Prom can only mount one."
and.. "but the Prom can only mount one."
... and :P
"but are absolutely unuseable on a Prom because the Prom can't maneuver to get those weapons inline with its target - while a valk or vult pilot can easily get multiple neutron blasters inline with the target. So not only can the Valk deal more damage in a second than the Prom, but it can avoid the Prom's weapons pretty easily."
this is the problem with the promethious; i beleive it is underpowered for such tasks, and too slow. i am not sure what else to type that i haven't typed before other than pointing out very specific parts in CP's post. this pretty much seals it.
i look forward to reading your backstory on the serco.
edit: as i was just about to close firebird i had this idea. lately i have been bumping into alot of proms, and hogs with AGTs mounted. what if the damage per second on the AGT were increased a tad?
A single prom need not be necessarily effective against a single valk or vult, but if the valk or vult gives the prom the opportunity, it would find itself in a world of trouble. As it is now, unless the prom mounts only missiles and rockets, it cannot deal enough damage to the Valk to sufficiently offset the damage caused to it, and because rockets are so slow, and missiles have such low damage ratings coupled with bad seekers, the likelyhood of the prom actually hitting the valk in the one or two chances it gets is quite low.
As it stands really the only energy weapons that the Prom can effectively mount are the Plasma Devastator (1 and 2) and the Gatling Turret - the Plasma Devastator because it deals a lot of damage per shot, and the Gatling turret because it fires a lot of shots with good auto-targeting (well... semi-good autotargeting - it cannot hit a barrel rolling valk) - but the Prom can only mount one. Neutron blasters deal more damage per second than any of those weapons, but are absolutely unuseable on a Prom because the Prom can't maneuver to get those weapons inline with its target - while a valk or vult pilot can easily get multiple neutron blasters inline with the target. So not only can the Valk deal more damage in a second than the Prom, but it can avoid the Prom's weapons pretty easily.*
exactly what i was thinking. unforentantly i am not very good at trying to bring a point acrossed when i am angered.
to quote another. "Thank you for your post CP. You are far more talented at getting these points across than myself, and you have hit the nail on the head with that post."
***
i would like everyone to pay attention to this sigment of CP's post:
"A single prom need not be necessarily effective against a single valk or vult, but if the valk or vult gives the prom the opportunity, it would find itself in a world of trouble."
this aswell:
"As it stands really the only energy weapons that the Prom can effectively mount are the Plasma Devastator (1 and 2) and the Gatling Turret - the Plasma Devastator because it deals a lot of damage per shot, and the Gatling turret because it fires a lot of shots with good auto-targeting (well... semi-good autotargeting - it cannot hit a barrel rolling valk) - but the Prom can only mount one."
and.. "but the Prom can only mount one."
... and :P
"but are absolutely unuseable on a Prom because the Prom can't maneuver to get those weapons inline with its target - while a valk or vult pilot can easily get multiple neutron blasters inline with the target. So not only can the Valk deal more damage in a second than the Prom, but it can avoid the Prom's weapons pretty easily."
this is the problem with the promethious; i beleive it is underpowered for such tasks, and too slow. i am not sure what else to type that i haven't typed before other than pointing out very specific parts in CP's post. this pretty much seals it.
i look forward to reading your backstory on the serco.
edit: as i was just about to close firebird i had this idea. lately i have been bumping into alot of proms, and hogs with AGTs mounted. what if the damage per second on the AGT were increased a tad?
Basically, what I'm saying is that the Devs may still see Serco as an 'adversary race' in a one-player game. Don't think that this problem is exclusively their folly either. Ever tried to play an Elite in Halo 2 Multiplayer? You get shot a hell of a lot more because your profile is so much easier to hit. It was in fact designed to be hit. Likewise with the Prometheus, when it was awesome and everyone was using it, it was nerfed within a week. The Valk gets unbalanced and stays that way for twelve months over hundreds of voiciferous complaints because it is seen by the devs as a ship whose purpose is to destroy hordes of Proms.
This perception may well be subconscious, where the mind has a tendency to reduce everything to terms of 'good' or 'evil', and I believe when the perception of the Serco shifts from being 'the enemy' to being 'just another race with a different set of goals' , we will see the Prometheus balanced, and not until.
This perception may well be subconscious, where the mind has a tendency to reduce everything to terms of 'good' or 'evil', and I believe when the perception of the Serco shifts from being 'the enemy' to being 'just another race with a different set of goals' , we will see the Prometheus balanced, and not until.
Well you know something's wrong when a valk pilot who's not Eldrad can take on 4 Serco pilots and survive. The things are so damn light that they can instantly outrun anything, and can keep up with you and shoot you when you're boosting all out.
The special nation ships should be special, but not so super than they can so easily defeat EVERY OTHER SHIP IN THE GAME.
Just now, two single valk pilots (they were not really acting as a group but more like individuals) diffused the combined group efforts of five good Serco pilots. Somehow, a valk can zip in, kill the transport, get the cargo, and zip out, without getting significantly damaged by the four players escorting the convoy. I joined up later to kill that Itani who was running my direction and we all ran back to Serco space, but not before three of us were killed.
And ALL the Itani know that the Valk is a supership unmatched by anything in the game, so it's beginning to not be fun to CtC anymore because it's just impossible for the Serco to compete.
The special nation ships should be special, but not so super than they can so easily defeat EVERY OTHER SHIP IN THE GAME.
Just now, two single valk pilots (they were not really acting as a group but more like individuals) diffused the combined group efforts of five good Serco pilots. Somehow, a valk can zip in, kill the transport, get the cargo, and zip out, without getting significantly damaged by the four players escorting the convoy. I joined up later to kill that Itani who was running my direction and we all ran back to Serco space, but not before three of us were killed.
And ALL the Itani know that the Valk is a supership unmatched by anything in the game, so it's beginning to not be fun to CtC anymore because it's just impossible for the Serco to compete.
The valk is barely lighter than the Serco Guardian Vulture and the Corvus Marauder. I really don' t know what you people whine about. Yes, it has a slight edge, but if a valk takes out 4 other players, its the players, and not the ships. At least 3 Sercos have valks now as well, plus 2 UITs who help out.
Guys, no matter how much HP you give the Prom, I will kill in it in a Vult or a Valk. I'm not even that good, and I'm confident in that assesment.
Whatever weapons you give the Prom to try and balance it against the Valk I can put on the Valk or the Vult - except the heavy slot, which I could put on a Hog. All of which are much more maueverable that the Prom.
Agility is the trump card. If you are much more agile than your opponent, you win. There's no way you could give the Prom enough HP so that it could "manuever its way into a firing position" - I'll just manuever out of the way and hit you with another burst of Neut2s or 3s.
The Prom needs more agility. Period. Unless you are going to give it Prom-only weaponry in an attempt to balance it, which would sort of defeat the purpose of having those configurable ship slots.
Whatever weapons you give the Prom to try and balance it against the Valk I can put on the Valk or the Vult - except the heavy slot, which I could put on a Hog. All of which are much more maueverable that the Prom.
Agility is the trump card. If you are much more agile than your opponent, you win. There's no way you could give the Prom enough HP so that it could "manuever its way into a firing position" - I'll just manuever out of the way and hit you with another burst of Neut2s or 3s.
The Prom needs more agility. Period. Unless you are going to give it Prom-only weaponry in an attempt to balance it, which would sort of defeat the purpose of having those configurable ship slots.
"The valk is barely lighter than the Serco Guardian Vulture and the Corvus Marauder. I really don' t know what you people whine about. Yes, it has a slight edge, but if a valk takes out 4 other players, its the players, and not the ships."
The Valk may be barely lighter than the Serco Guardian Vulture, but has more armor, more weapon ports, higher maneuverability, and accelerates to full speed a lot faster. Have you ever tried to run away from a Valk? It's incredibly difficult because the Valk gets to full speed so quickly that it can usually close the gap and get into weapons range.
As for the 4v1, it was ? against myself, Lin, snoopy, and Gutbuster. Of the four of us, Lin and I are pretty good PvP, and snoopy and Gutbuster are less experienced. ? was able to catch and kill Lin's Marauder which was carrying back cargo, ignoring all the rest of us because he knew that we'd never be able to catch him. I had 4 encounters of my single Warthog weighed down with cargo with at least two itani, and one encounter against three Itani, all flying valks. ? was carrying cargo and nearly caught me once. Niki was empty and nearly caught me three times (ie. exited the jump 1000+ meters away and was able to close to less than 300m and start shooting).
"At least 3 Sercos have valks now as well, plus 2 UITs who help out."
And how many Itani fly Valks? Shape, _ghost_, ?, niki, Roguelazer, Markus Vim... you want me to keep going? In comparison, who flys the Prometheus? Occasionally yodaofborg, and very rarely me. I can't think of anyone who brings the Prometheus purposely into a battle more than once.
The Valk may be barely lighter than the Serco Guardian Vulture, but has more armor, more weapon ports, higher maneuverability, and accelerates to full speed a lot faster. Have you ever tried to run away from a Valk? It's incredibly difficult because the Valk gets to full speed so quickly that it can usually close the gap and get into weapons range.
As for the 4v1, it was ? against myself, Lin, snoopy, and Gutbuster. Of the four of us, Lin and I are pretty good PvP, and snoopy and Gutbuster are less experienced. ? was able to catch and kill Lin's Marauder which was carrying back cargo, ignoring all the rest of us because he knew that we'd never be able to catch him. I had 4 encounters of my single Warthog weighed down with cargo with at least two itani, and one encounter against three Itani, all flying valks. ? was carrying cargo and nearly caught me once. Niki was empty and nearly caught me three times (ie. exited the jump 1000+ meters away and was able to close to less than 300m and start shooting).
"At least 3 Sercos have valks now as well, plus 2 UITs who help out."
And how many Itani fly Valks? Shape, _ghost_, ?, niki, Roguelazer, Markus Vim... you want me to keep going? In comparison, who flys the Prometheus? Occasionally yodaofborg, and very rarely me. I can't think of anyone who brings the Prometheus purposely into a battle more than once.
"At least 3 Sercos have valks now as well, plus 2 UITs who help out."
3 Serco? I doupt that... but uhm well, I am one of this. And nearly everytime I fight with it, I hear Itani whining about it like: "You should not be able to fly a valk! You are serco!"
And look at the lots of posts here in the forum with only _one_ topic: "Do not let serco gain Itani standings"
Obviously, Itanis are really not willing to let serco fly a decent ship. Why is that?
It is getting so stupid, that I decided to see vendetta as a single player game. Botting and trading. Might be fun ... uhm...
P.S.: Not _every_ Itani of course. I still met honorfull Itani out there, most of them are good fighters. _They_ do not complain about my valk... weird.
3 Serco? I doupt that... but uhm well, I am one of this. And nearly everytime I fight with it, I hear Itani whining about it like: "You should not be able to fly a valk! You are serco!"
And look at the lots of posts here in the forum with only _one_ topic: "Do not let serco gain Itani standings"
Obviously, Itanis are really not willing to let serco fly a decent ship. Why is that?
It is getting so stupid, that I decided to see vendetta as a single player game. Botting and trading. Might be fun ... uhm...
P.S.: Not _every_ Itani of course. I still met honorfull Itani out there, most of them are good fighters. _They_ do not complain about my valk... weird.
You are mixing together two entirely independent issues. Sercos should be able to buy valks on the black market. They should be expensive and difficult to get. Sercos should NOT be able to home in Divinia, buy an IDF valk and kill the transport in Itani space without an Itani being able to defend it. In other words, they should not be able to gain substantial standing with Itan.
"Sercos should NOT be able to home in Divinia, buy an IDF valk and kill the transport in Itani space without an Itani being able to defend it"
right. But that is not, what I ment. I never killed Itani transports in Itani space. And never will, because I will lose lots of Itani standings.
"In other words, they should not be able to gain substantial standing with Itan."
false. right would be:
Sercos should NOT be able to kill the transport in Itani space without an Itani being able to defend it. ups. you said that.
If I decide to gain good standings with every faction, I should not be limited by the game to do that.
If that means, that I should not kill transports in Itani space, hey, ok. But do not cut the element of trading and exploring the whole universe because of _one_ Serco who did that _once_
right. But that is not, what I ment. I never killed Itani transports in Itani space. And never will, because I will lose lots of Itani standings.
"In other words, they should not be able to gain substantial standing with Itan."
false. right would be:
Sercos should NOT be able to kill the transport in Itani space without an Itani being able to defend it. ups. you said that.
If I decide to gain good standings with every faction, I should not be limited by the game to do that.
If that means, that I should not kill transports in Itani space, hey, ok. But do not cut the element of trading and exploring the whole universe because of _one_ Serco who did that _once_
Actually that's a pretty big problem for both sides. Both Serco and Itani have on multiple occasions used that exploit to kill CTC convoys. It doesn't make much sense for an Itani to have good Serco standing OR vice versa - and using the fact that they currently can as a balance crutch is short sighted at best.
The Prom needs an adjustment, and from the minor hints dropped into the rumor mill it sounds like something is forthcoming. After all, the next release is supposed to be "bugfixes" - maybe as a temp fix the Prom's mass will be dropped to allow it to compete more effectively.
The Prom needs an adjustment, and from the minor hints dropped into the rumor mill it sounds like something is forthcoming. After all, the next release is supposed to be "bugfixes" - maybe as a temp fix the Prom's mass will be dropped to allow it to compete more effectively.