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If we want to make design decisions according to the backstory, then we'd have the itani flying around with uber-ships, uber weapons, uber shields, (why not chuck in dev powers too)... Whilst the Serco are stuck with flying lunchboxes...
may i suggest that you re-read the backstory, where 17 itani fighters went in to free the itani pilots, and came out with, 3 i think? nice..
oh, dont forget the shields, too. we had those :P
maybe we could have a G port, you know.. a goliath port for the our ships? boom! *shakes head*
i'm debating with a brick wall here, and i am done as my points have been provided in this thread.
edit: how many times are you going to edit your post below mine? it has been changed 5 times.
oh, dont forget the shields, too. we had those :P
maybe we could have a G port, you know.. a goliath port for the our ships? boom! *shakes head*
i'm debating with a brick wall here, and i am done as my points have been provided in this thread.
edit: how many times are you going to edit your post below mine? it has been changed 5 times.
ROFL... ok... whatever... I wish you hadn't cluttered my bug report!
Didn't they raid our main space station?!?! Its an insult any survived...
Clearly Serco are not cut-out to have a fighting chance, so I'm turning to endless botting...
(now where did i put my copy of Quake3)
Didn't they raid our main space station?!?! Its an insult any survived...
Clearly Serco are not cut-out to have a fighting chance, so I'm turning to endless botting...
(now where did i put my copy of Quake3)
Gentlemen: accusations of "whining" have no place in a civilized debate.
I told myself i wasnt going to post here, but this is getting out of hand.
Icarus has a point, however badly he has phrased it.
3 months ago i would have argued very vocally with anyone who claimed that the valkarie was a lot better than the prometheous, At the time, the prometheous just took more skill to use effectively, but in the right hands it was allmost a match for the valk, it certaintly could hold its own long enough for help to arrive.
My main complaint about the valkarie was that it's a very forgiving ship to fly, there are 3 reasons for this.
1. Its agility allows it to run the minute it gets in trouble, and nothing other than another valk can catch it.
2. With 3 weapons it can pack a devestating punch, it can do a lot of damage very fast, and because it is so agile, it can race in to get the first shot unless the target is alert.
3. With 10-11K armor it's ability to absorb damage is quite good, meaning that even if a fight starts to turn against it, it will most likely live long enough to use its first advantage and flee.
This is what was meant when it was stated that "the valk has no disadvantages"
Celebrim has posted something to the effect of, "each time you double the agility of a ship, you have effectively doubled its armor also" This is very true. The valk can dodge 3X as fast as the prometheous, making it 3X as hard to hit. That effectively gives it 30k hull in comparison, not 10k hull.
With the ease a valk can dodge shots, and the hull it has to absorb the few that hit, it really does have an advantage, and it takes far less skill to fly than a prom does, because if you get in trouble in a valk, you can just run away, and thats after it takes more than half the damage that it would take to destroy the prometheous. You dont have that option in a prometheous because you will never get up to speed to flee before being destroyed.
The main problem however began when the devs added mass to all the weapons. The L-Port weapons are very overweight and underpowered in comparison, and the Small port Neutron-3 is so overpowered and underweight that it makes no sense to use anything else, as long as the ship you are putting it on is agile enough to effectivly point at your target.
The ships are still comprable, but to be effective a prometheous has to fill all 3 of its weapons ports with high weight, high autoaim weapons since it cant react as fast; the mass of them make it all but useless by reducing its reaction time even more, to the point where it just cant track a valkarie well enough to hit it if the valk pilot is even halfway decent.
Since the valk has the agility to dodge in and out of fire and is agile enough to bring its weapons in line with its target, it can mount only 1 or 2, light low autoaim weapon(s) Any of the neutron blasters, but the 3 in particular), giving it a further advantage in mass.
Overall the Valk has the following attributes
1. Low Mass = Very Agile
2. Good Firepower
3. Good Armor
IMO thats 1 attribute too many, Personally I'd like to see it loose about 300 mass and get just a tiny bit more agile, keep the same firepower, and loose around half of the armor.
This way a talented pilot would be able to dodge the enemy fire without taking damage (or only taking a little bit) but the pilots that use that extra hull as a crutch in combat would need to actually develop some skill.
At present a valk pilot only needs to do 100 damage for every 60 that he takes in order to kill a prom. And the valk has 1/3 the mass of a prom, meaning it can dodge 3 times better. Most pilots dont worry too much about avoiding damage tho, Its being used as a broadsword, not as a knife.
If it only had 5000-5500 hull it would have to be more wary of taking damage, meaning that paying attention to incoming fire would become as important as doing damage to the enemy. it would become a rapier, darting in and out and relying on avoiding its opponent, instead of sweeping in and trading blows.
Icarus has a point, however badly he has phrased it.
3 months ago i would have argued very vocally with anyone who claimed that the valkarie was a lot better than the prometheous, At the time, the prometheous just took more skill to use effectively, but in the right hands it was allmost a match for the valk, it certaintly could hold its own long enough for help to arrive.
My main complaint about the valkarie was that it's a very forgiving ship to fly, there are 3 reasons for this.
1. Its agility allows it to run the minute it gets in trouble, and nothing other than another valk can catch it.
2. With 3 weapons it can pack a devestating punch, it can do a lot of damage very fast, and because it is so agile, it can race in to get the first shot unless the target is alert.
3. With 10-11K armor it's ability to absorb damage is quite good, meaning that even if a fight starts to turn against it, it will most likely live long enough to use its first advantage and flee.
This is what was meant when it was stated that "the valk has no disadvantages"
Celebrim has posted something to the effect of, "each time you double the agility of a ship, you have effectively doubled its armor also" This is very true. The valk can dodge 3X as fast as the prometheous, making it 3X as hard to hit. That effectively gives it 30k hull in comparison, not 10k hull.
With the ease a valk can dodge shots, and the hull it has to absorb the few that hit, it really does have an advantage, and it takes far less skill to fly than a prom does, because if you get in trouble in a valk, you can just run away, and thats after it takes more than half the damage that it would take to destroy the prometheous. You dont have that option in a prometheous because you will never get up to speed to flee before being destroyed.
The main problem however began when the devs added mass to all the weapons. The L-Port weapons are very overweight and underpowered in comparison, and the Small port Neutron-3 is so overpowered and underweight that it makes no sense to use anything else, as long as the ship you are putting it on is agile enough to effectivly point at your target.
The ships are still comprable, but to be effective a prometheous has to fill all 3 of its weapons ports with high weight, high autoaim weapons since it cant react as fast; the mass of them make it all but useless by reducing its reaction time even more, to the point where it just cant track a valkarie well enough to hit it if the valk pilot is even halfway decent.
Since the valk has the agility to dodge in and out of fire and is agile enough to bring its weapons in line with its target, it can mount only 1 or 2, light low autoaim weapon(s) Any of the neutron blasters, but the 3 in particular), giving it a further advantage in mass.
Overall the Valk has the following attributes
1. Low Mass = Very Agile
2. Good Firepower
3. Good Armor
IMO thats 1 attribute too many, Personally I'd like to see it loose about 300 mass and get just a tiny bit more agile, keep the same firepower, and loose around half of the armor.
This way a talented pilot would be able to dodge the enemy fire without taking damage (or only taking a little bit) but the pilots that use that extra hull as a crutch in combat would need to actually develop some skill.
At present a valk pilot only needs to do 100 damage for every 60 that he takes in order to kill a prom. And the valk has 1/3 the mass of a prom, meaning it can dodge 3 times better. Most pilots dont worry too much about avoiding damage tho, Its being used as a broadsword, not as a knife.
If it only had 5000-5500 hull it would have to be more wary of taking damage, meaning that paying attention to incoming fire would become as important as doing damage to the enemy. it would become a rapier, darting in and out and relying on avoiding its opponent, instead of sweeping in and trading blows.
I do not find it fun fighting other ships that have a clear advantage over you. It is impossible to balance factional ships . We could give everyone different versions of the Valk , with each faction getting there own distinct version and have the stats vary a little bit. But as it stands right now , the game is not balanced.
Thank you for your post Spellcast. You are far more talented at getting these points across than myself, and you have hit the nail on the head with that post.
I agree with Spellcast on all the points he makes. There is, however, one attribute that he did not mention, which is the ship size. I'm not going to try to argue that this makes up for the Valk's agility, but it is a factor in Valk vs. Vult fights, as a Vult is a much smaller target.
I would like to point out two issues:
The first is that everyone is comparing the Valk to the Prom, and they are ships for two entirely different purposes. It frankly doesn't make sense for a bomber/transport to be able to fight head to head with a fighter. It seems like the Serco are really asking for a heavy fighter.
The Second is that unfortunately we have a universe where the most important aspect of any ship in any combat situation is the ability to dogfight. We don't have any very large ships or stations to attack yet, with the exception of hive queens (which I imagine the Prom probably works well), however this is a minor aspect of the game atm.
Okay, so we have a lot of balance issues that need to be worked out. The devs have said that the current way engines work is just temporary and not balanced. Missles still need to be tweaked, the Neut III is basically throwing off everything, weapon masses need to be changed around, we REALLY need more things that make heavier ships useful, etc etc.
I think in the universe the devs envision, the Valk is pretty close to the way it should be... but with the current weapon balance, and other factors it is too powerful.
Consider this scenario: In a modification to the CTC the transport is much larger, slower, MUCH more heavily armored, and carries a lot more cargo. Also, small weapons are fast, but don't do as much damage. Fighters are hard pressed to take down the transport because it takes a long time, and they are easy targets while hovering near the slow moving transport. Someone has to fly in with a bomber type ship, which has enough firepower to destroy the tranport, but is more vulnerable to fighters, so it may need to be escorted, or at least have a fighter backup. Furthermore, lots of cargo means a transport may be needed, which would also need an escort.
In terms of "for right now" I think it might be a good time to take a break from adding content for a little while and work on some of these balance issues. It would be great if the Serco could also have some kind of advanced fighter themselves, but adding new ships has got to be a lot more work than balancing existing ships/equipment.
I would like to point out two issues:
The first is that everyone is comparing the Valk to the Prom, and they are ships for two entirely different purposes. It frankly doesn't make sense for a bomber/transport to be able to fight head to head with a fighter. It seems like the Serco are really asking for a heavy fighter.
The Second is that unfortunately we have a universe where the most important aspect of any ship in any combat situation is the ability to dogfight. We don't have any very large ships or stations to attack yet, with the exception of hive queens (which I imagine the Prom probably works well), however this is a minor aspect of the game atm.
Okay, so we have a lot of balance issues that need to be worked out. The devs have said that the current way engines work is just temporary and not balanced. Missles still need to be tweaked, the Neut III is basically throwing off everything, weapon masses need to be changed around, we REALLY need more things that make heavier ships useful, etc etc.
I think in the universe the devs envision, the Valk is pretty close to the way it should be... but with the current weapon balance, and other factors it is too powerful.
Consider this scenario: In a modification to the CTC the transport is much larger, slower, MUCH more heavily armored, and carries a lot more cargo. Also, small weapons are fast, but don't do as much damage. Fighters are hard pressed to take down the transport because it takes a long time, and they are easy targets while hovering near the slow moving transport. Someone has to fly in with a bomber type ship, which has enough firepower to destroy the tranport, but is more vulnerable to fighters, so it may need to be escorted, or at least have a fighter backup. Furthermore, lots of cargo means a transport may be needed, which would also need an escort.
In terms of "for right now" I think it might be a good time to take a break from adding content for a little while and work on some of these balance issues. It would be great if the Serco could also have some kind of advanced fighter themselves, but adding new ships has got to be a lot more work than balancing existing ships/equipment.
Something I keep hearing as a good argument for why things should remain buggy, And have heard for over a year now, is that the Serco Prometheus is supposed to fill a role that doesn't exist.
THERE IS NO POINT in a heavy bomber.
There are no heavy bombs. There are no things to bomb with a heavy bomber.
As for your argument about the queen. No, its not effective against it. Several reasons, the most important one being that it deals too little damage, and can't avoid getting hit by either the queen, or the escorts.
A vulture, or a valkyre, makes for a far better ship to take it out with, simply because they can both deal more damage, and get away with it.
As for your argument about size, that is mostly moot since the valk can move out of range and aim of any weapon another fighter can equip. only in the cases where the valkyre pilot is so handicapped with regards to skill there is a chance to take them out.
And for the three valkyres who tried to kill my marauder the other night? Sheesh. That was the most pathetic excuse for an effort I've ever seen in pilots, and whoever comes with the argument that the valk is less bugged because they can't take a 3 vs 1 fight against a marauder, really need to reconsider their acts in the piloting seat of their ships.
THERE IS NO POINT in a heavy bomber.
There are no heavy bombs. There are no things to bomb with a heavy bomber.
As for your argument about the queen. No, its not effective against it. Several reasons, the most important one being that it deals too little damage, and can't avoid getting hit by either the queen, or the escorts.
A vulture, or a valkyre, makes for a far better ship to take it out with, simply because they can both deal more damage, and get away with it.
As for your argument about size, that is mostly moot since the valk can move out of range and aim of any weapon another fighter can equip. only in the cases where the valkyre pilot is so handicapped with regards to skill there is a chance to take them out.
And for the three valkyres who tried to kill my marauder the other night? Sheesh. That was the most pathetic excuse for an effort I've ever seen in pilots, and whoever comes with the argument that the valk is less bugged because they can't take a 3 vs 1 fight against a marauder, really need to reconsider their acts in the piloting seat of their ships.
Yo Spider: I'm a Serco. I usually fly Vultures. I fly Valks when I can get them.
Fact: A player from any nation can get a Valk if they want it.
*sigh* indeed.
Fact: A player from any nation can get a Valk if they want it.
*sigh* indeed.
Yes, RattMann, everyone can get a Valk if they really want to, but it almost sounds as if you're advocating that everyone should get a Valk, and having different ships for different nations is pointless because anyone can get any ship anyway.
The way I see it, there is a certain amount of nationalism involved. We want to fly OUR nation's special ships. We don't want to fly some OTHER nation's special ships just to stay competitive.
The way I see it, there is a certain amount of nationalism involved. We want to fly OUR nation's special ships. We don't want to fly some OTHER nation's special ships just to stay competitive.
""The first is that everyone is comparing the Valk to the Prom, and they are ships for two entirely different purposes. ""
Thats one way of looking at it, Another way is to look at it is
-they are 2 ships designed to do the same thing by different means, eg the valk is designed to win fights because its agile, the prom is designed to win fights because it is strong enough to take a huge beating while killing its opponent.-
I've actually started to explore the idea that you might be right however fleabait. Perhaps the valk and the prom need to have different roles, see thread
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/7745
The problem is that the valk has enough hull to take a lot of damage, it has heavier armor than all but a few ships, which coupled with having the best agility in the game seems unfair to me.
Thats one way of looking at it, Another way is to look at it is
-they are 2 ships designed to do the same thing by different means, eg the valk is designed to win fights because its agile, the prom is designed to win fights because it is strong enough to take a huge beating while killing its opponent.-
I've actually started to explore the idea that you might be right however fleabait. Perhaps the valk and the prom need to have different roles, see thread
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/7745
The problem is that the valk has enough hull to take a lot of damage, it has heavier armor than all but a few ships, which coupled with having the best agility in the game seems unfair to me.
Spider, I didn't mean to sound like I was defending the status quo. It just seems to me that we have a lot of different ship ships with different roles, and the only useful roles (currently) are dogfighting and transporting. The Itani have the best dogfighter in the game, and the UIT have the best transport. The Prom is mediocre at both. What the Serco should have to make it fair is a heavy fighter, or some Valk equivelent (in our current universe).
At any rate, we are still waiting on the engine adjustmenst, and various weapon balances. I think it will be more reasonable once those things happen. It's just not fair at the moment. Also, the Valk probably does have too much armor.
By the way... the other day I tried fighting a pair of hive queens in a light varient centaur using mines. It was *interesting*. I was able to kill most of the escorts with the mines, but then switched to a Maud with Neuts for the rest. I've never flown a Prom, so I don't know exactly how well it would work. It was just speculation.
At any rate, we are still waiting on the engine adjustmenst, and various weapon balances. I think it will be more reasonable once those things happen. It's just not fair at the moment. Also, the Valk probably does have too much armor.
By the way... the other day I tried fighting a pair of hive queens in a light varient centaur using mines. It was *interesting*. I was able to kill most of the escorts with the mines, but then switched to a Maud with Neuts for the rest. I've never flown a Prom, so I don't know exactly how well it would work. It was just speculation.
Alright, so I do agree that the prom should be made a lot better, rather than nerfing the valk the prom should be made more effective. But even then, Spider brings up a very good point. There is no real effective role for proms atm. Perhaps once cap ships get put in a prom will do well against them, but for now Spider is very correct. My suggestion would be leaving the valk as it is (lets not forget it's a flying potato with a large profile) and give the prom uber armor. Make up for its lack of manuverability with an insane ammount of armor, that could even things out between the prom and valk. Where the valk is tough to hit, the prom should just be able to take a massive beating before being destroyed. Just my opinion anyway.
The main point here is that it really doesn't matter how much armor you have if you can just out-maneuver your opponent. I'm sure with that mass and fire-power valk pilots would really be just as effective at 4k armor points.
The arguments that "A good pilot can take out valks with no problem," is also invalid, since balance is not based on good pilots killing bad pilots, but on good pilots in different ships fighting each other.
One thing that might help heavier ships, is if more massive ships got more batteries. This would give them the ability to actually utilize all of their weapon ports. What's the point of having so many guns if you can't effectively utilize more than 2 light ports? Give the Prom, the Ragnarok, and maybe a couple other HEAVY COMBAT SHIPS 2 batteries. This would also effectively make them more maneuverable, but in a different way. They would not be able to out-accelerate their smaller cousins, but they'd be able to boost for a much longer duration, trading acceleration for endurance.
The arguments that "A good pilot can take out valks with no problem," is also invalid, since balance is not based on good pilots killing bad pilots, but on good pilots in different ships fighting each other.
One thing that might help heavier ships, is if more massive ships got more batteries. This would give them the ability to actually utilize all of their weapon ports. What's the point of having so many guns if you can't effectively utilize more than 2 light ports? Give the Prom, the Ragnarok, and maybe a couple other HEAVY COMBAT SHIPS 2 batteries. This would also effectively make them more maneuverable, but in a different way. They would not be able to out-accelerate their smaller cousins, but they'd be able to boost for a much longer duration, trading acceleration for endurance.
Thomas Gunn: you are on the right track here untill you start talking about balance.
Then the wheels came off. Hopefully, there will be a steady stream of new players to enrich the game and make the Devs wealthy. Along with new players there are
others such as myself who don't really excel at PVP combat. Both of these groups
need an "equalizer" to give us a fighting chance against the "good" players. Isn't
that an important part of "balance?"
Then the wheels came off. Hopefully, there will be a steady stream of new players to enrich the game and make the Devs wealthy. Along with new players there are
others such as myself who don't really excel at PVP combat. Both of these groups
need an "equalizer" to give us a fighting chance against the "good" players. Isn't
that an important part of "balance?"
rattman, what happens when that "equalizer" is put into the hands of a good player then?
I don't want to be pulled into this but afaik the devs have said there is a major engine balance coming up. They are designing specific engines for ships.
No matter how much armor you give the prom it will not help now because it will just add that much more mass. When the devs make the Prom its own engine, with more power and torque so it can maneuver better it will once again rival the Valk.
Until that time its really hard to say what else needs fixing. When all ships have proper engines things should be very different.
No matter how much armor you give the prom it will not help now because it will just add that much more mass. When the devs make the Prom its own engine, with more power and torque so it can maneuver better it will once again rival the Valk.
Until that time its really hard to say what else needs fixing. When all ships have proper engines things should be very different.
Spellcast: The average guy would still be in a better position with a Valk vs a good
player than he would be if he was flying a Warthog or something, right?
player than he would be if he was flying a Warthog or something, right?
but you're missing the point of my question rattman.
If there is a ship that functions as an equalizer, which you claim is needed because
""Both of these groups
need an "equalizer" to give us a fighting chance against the "good" players""
what happens when you, still a player who "don't really excel at PVP combat", in your "equalizer" meet up with a GOOD pilot in the same "equalizer" ship.
the answer is that you die just the same as if you were both in a warthog. nothing has changed, your chances arent any better.
Its actually entirely possible that being in an "equalizer" ship wont really help against a good pilot anyhow. Eldrad can beat the pants off of most of us in any ship he choosesd to fly. I suspect he'd be able to kill me even if the devs let him fly an unarmed cargo box.
If there is a ship that functions as an equalizer, which you claim is needed because
""Both of these groups
need an "equalizer" to give us a fighting chance against the "good" players""
what happens when you, still a player who "don't really excel at PVP combat", in your "equalizer" meet up with a GOOD pilot in the same "equalizer" ship.
the answer is that you die just the same as if you were both in a warthog. nothing has changed, your chances arent any better.
Its actually entirely possible that being in an "equalizer" ship wont really help against a good pilot anyhow. Eldrad can beat the pants off of most of us in any ship he choosesd to fly. I suspect he'd be able to kill me even if the devs let him fly an unarmed cargo box.