Spider> Not sure what you meant...

FM> Okay, you're right on both accounts /me begs forgiveness

Tboyz> Well said

Hmm lets see what I've got in my past. Keep in mind that I am not in any way involved in the CtC at this stage. Also please be aware that this does not apply to all members of the SAF, just a select few. Finally be aware that these SAF members were not involved in CtC at the time.

Stories:

SAF Vet attacks me with a Prom in grey space with rockets and gets a face full of swarms. Flees at 10% or so.

SAF Vet attacks me with a Flare Vult in grey space and gets a face of swarms. Flees at 50%, rearms, repairs and comes back to find me.

SAF Vet station camps me twice after getting swarm killed, he dies the second time after crashing into an asteroid so I'm not sure when he would have stopped.

SAF Vets kill me with no reason, generally while I'm trading. (about 5 - 10 times)

SAF Vet fires flares into duals between Tramshed and me to steal Tramshed's kills. He was annoyed because Tramshed sold the CtC cargo.

SAF Vet is friendly when I enter the system. While organising a duel (I think on sector chat) the vet sneaks behind me and kills me next to a station. His reason was "I was bored".

These are not all the stories. I also have hardly any stories about people from other guilds.

My Opinions:

This one is the big one.

If you start something you stay and finish it. If the Newb in the Rag gets the one up on you and you are likely to die, then so be it. Have the honour to take the hit and give them the PK they have earned. Hell I'd even stay after I run out of ammo. If you can't kill someone with the ammo you've got then why would you attack them in the first place. Either way, you failed and they deserve the PK.

Essentially there seems to be a group of people in the SAF who follow a win at all costs mentality. The difference between these people and a bully is non existant. I expect that as the game gets older and people start to approach the skill levels of these vets quite a few of the vets will suddenly decide to leave.

I know grey space is dangerous and I have no qualms getting killed there but I do find it amusing that the main Pirate guild is more honourable in fighting than some of the SAF.

Good stories Martin, I'm sure many could express similar circumstanses.

Another point I'd like to make: a difference between these griefers of traders and pirates. A pirate asks for money, giving you a chance to live. A griefer does not, they just kill for the fun of it. By many of the people I/we are talking about on this post do not give you a chance.

@Smittens: my previous post was that I found your two-paragraph ramble hard to read and overvies, and even worse to reply to. Ergo, its ignored.

All: There is a point here you need to reconsider, which is the overuse of the world "Grief", for a player to be an all around PK does not imply they are a griefer.
Attacking somone without giving them a chance, or playing with /hidelog in general, doesn't mean that you are a griefer.
Griefing is the repeated harassment of a single player over an extended period of time. The fact that you lightly throw the argument around against anyone who doesn't play the game like you think it should be played.. Well.
Stop fucking griefing us in the forum.
There. You're now griefers, because you're repeatedly harassing and making the wrong point, even after acknowledging that you are wrong at points.

Now, What you need to consider here is that SAF does not, and will not, enforce such behaviour as an organized group. We don't go in either direction here, And the fact that you single out our members only speaks of an percieved malice on your part.

So, Yes, I see an organized griefing from you players.

--

Sidepoint about staying to finish what you start:
This was mostly voided by the introduction of death penalties from bounties. There is little incentive to stay and finish any combat when you risk losing levels because of it, and I don't know anyone who feels about to do so.
The introduction of the bounty system in the current form (rewarding the other pilot can be seen as the same as a penalty to oneself) means that pilots no longer stop to take a fight.

It also means that you meet some that will bind /explode and use that rather than be killed if they are caught in a bind.

Upsetting, annoying, but it was most probably an intended game mechanic.

griefing is always bad.
This game is called vendetta. Of course there are some pers. vendettas...

http://vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/7/8788

But I bet you will find some very friendly pilots even in the SAF.

There are some SAF member that changed temporary to Itani chars and tryed to build up a strong CtC team there.

There are some SAF member that spend money to honorable Itani CtC participants to make them stay fighting CtC.

Show me another guild that acts like those...

Oh oh oh. My char is mentioned in the game!

Spider :

Holden Caulfield is a Role Playing Character. He does what he does according the rules I gave him, and nothing more and nothing less. He runs when he feels like his wife and kids need feeding. He fights when he feels like his honour is threatened. I believed he fought honourably against impossible odds in the last night of CTC. Your char was camping the station, he was out there to distract your character so the Itani reinforcements can arrive. He risked his hide to do that, and I think the Itanis inside the station in C5 appreciate it.

As a 10 bucks per month paying customer of Guild, I have no connection with Holden Caulfield, personally. In real life, i am lot less manic than Holden, and a lot more introspective.

But this game, people are not playing the game, some people are living it. That's why I leave channel 100. That's why I have people who taunts (you know who you are), and swears (you know who you are), and spouts elitist crap (you know who you are) on /ignore. That improves my gaming experience.

I am sure in real life, I am perfectly happy to have coffee with Spider's player and joke about war stories :D.

Hey Spider, most of those stories date back to before the bounty system. Even after the bounty system started, none of the people I mentioned had bounties on them at the time.

@Holden: I know, I just put it up for the discussion. Holden has proved to be very good with that cent, And as such gained enough notoriety (and respect) to be hunted at every turn simply for the chance of picking him down.

Yep, Such things happen, count the amount of players hunting Phoenix or Icarus because they are notorious and well known?
Or for that matter the amount of agressors I face myself. :)

@Martin: Aye, I realise, but I just wanted to point that out for the recent times, such things become even more common. The mechanics of the game has changed, leaving a lot of the sense of "honour" behind it.

well, Lin made a comment about me starting a thread about being bus-griefed, that's not going to happen. if anyone is still wondering why I did my park-the-bus in Sedina B8 that night, ask me -- some have.

as for the SAF in general, well, one thing that _does_ get to me is attitude. and I meet a lot more of that with SAF-players than mostly anyone else. I eventually took Holdens advice and did /ignore on some of the most annoying ones, but it still leaves me feeling pity for people joining the game and meeting some of those hails -- not to mention the taunts.

me? I don't really care much anymore. it got me to a point where I felt I'd happily sacrifice any standings or any honor to kill any SAF, at which point I logged and stayed off for a day or two. I try to deal with characters individually, but the SAF-sticker does make a mark. so, I do what I can to avoid them these days, the easiest of which is to not do CtC.

martin aren't you pirate?
$the |BL| near your name

think the reason why you got attacked by any |SAF| members.

new players should and will play serco.
they wont have this problems.

UIT and itani = harsh live.
lol

Nya, most of these stories are from before I was a pirate. I also have no issues being killed because of my piracy.

I do have issues with people who start a fight and then flee when it doesn't go their way. Especially when they are a much better pilot than I am.

For the record, all this stuff about bounties discouraging fights to the death does not apply if you do not get a bounty in the first place. If you don't get a bounty, you don't face the bounty penalty. Some people don't seem to make this connection...
-:sigma.SB

Spider: By your definition of grifeing there have been a few Itani who have been grifed by SAFers. But as I have not really been one I degrees the point. How ever you condoning of "personal vendettas" and "lax rules" lead way for pirating. You guys need to putt your people with "personal vendettas" on a tighter leash.

NAS: Which SAF members? As far as I know I was one of the few who went Itani, I am not SAF and as a matter of fact I was told by a ranking member of the SAF that I should stay Itani as they fit my cowardly fighting better. What did I do? I helped an Itani who had asked for help. The SAF member gat vary mad at me after I kill The pilot. This was the first time I've ever considered using the ignore command. What really struck me odd was that I was accused of ganging up on this SAFer when there was not CtC cargo around. Now I found this vary funny as the day before I had been killed by 4 SAF members when I was all alone in an Odia WH. I think some of the SAF members are ok to do what ever they want but god forbid we do it back too them.

Nya: Wow, that a great idea. With every one playing as a Serco there will be no more real PvP and Vendetta will die. But at least there will be no more grifing.

yea borb
thats could be a goal.

once no 1 will play itani or UIT in game
serco win!

and my job will be done.
no opponents.

:o) but could you believe that's could happen?

just imagine all the "griefed" players will become serco.
so we will just fight w/o complaint.
unless itanis and UITs players will start griefing sercos lol

btw i won't never understand people that is complaining because they got killed in greyspace.

its a whine not a complaint.
when you lose you are always angry.

:op

Yes Ayn, that makes a lot of sense. Let's grief out every one so you are the supreme overlord with no one challenging your rule. Have you talked with the devs to help you with such a pure and great idea?

To rest> Rushed now had to say that

I'd like to add something about /ignore. I have been here three months and there is nobody on my ignore list. Over the same period, I would have at least 15 new names on the +cens list at the internet chessclub - chess being supposed to be a much more civilized game than vendetta. I sometimes read stupid hails or sector messages, but so far I have not seen anything really annoying.

This is the only reservation I would make about the complaint.

i am thinking to start griefing people now
after read all this complaint w/o real a griefing.

wonder how we are able to grief somone in this game.
i should test...

if you have a good idea or tactic please post a suggestion here :

In my last post i forgot to add that the only others Sercs who came to the itani side we're all from BL, the only SAFer the came over was Solra. (but that was not for vary long)

Why not make an Itani alt Nya, you'll see some grifing then. Trust me things are differnt on the other side.