Dear SAF Members, especially veterans(such as: Lin, Amarus, Pheonix, Solra, Spider, Spellcast, Anevitt, Ayn Eziert, Kixkizzle, Space Hunter, Temporalis, etc.)

I would like to lodge a formal complaint towards the recent griefings of Itani and UIT players by the SAF, as well as the unfair tactics used by those players. I'll preface this little letter by acknowledging that this may sound like a whiner complaint, and that, yes, the players in this game are free to choose to play however they wish.

I have been playing on VO for about three months. I am a fairly avid player, with fairly high licenses and nearing 100 player kills, and I have thoroughly enjoyed this game. But recently, my experiences in-game have not been quite as enjoyable. I have been griefed multiple times by SAF vets, station-killed while trying to dock, and swarm spammed as soon as I left the station. I have been killed in cold blood in the middle of duels with other players. I have been given warnings to leave certain sectors by SAF members and been killed as I was trying to jump out. I have been unnecesarily mobbed by large groups of Serco vets, and their stupid insults annoy me =p. When fairly dueling one of these vets and winning, they will run, then accuse me of "backrolling" or the likes (which I DON'T do!) Their arrogant attitudes and ruthelessness towards n00bs also prompted this complaint. Also, along with the recent upgrading of the Prometheus and downgrading of the centurions and the IBG, the Serco's only have a bigger advantage in CtC. Also, I admit, the Serco veterans are the best group players in the game. Stacked up on the same side, its even more unfair.

There are no logical suggestions for solving this problem that I can come up with, except for, "Fight with more honor, Sercos." I don't believe that this post was in any way flaming or overly hostile.

-tboyz007

P.S. I won't give out my player name for fear of being further griefed by SAF members.

[Moved to Role Playing]

I have to agree with this. Multiple times the other day I was griefed out of the game (temporarily) when I was clearly engaged in one on one and Phoenix came up behind me and killed me without leaving any chance for me to defend myself. Some people may have seen me using tactics like this, but I have a clear reason that I could give you instantly for why I acted like this (and only to certain players). And that's not even mentioning the numerous station kills I've suffered at his hands, the numerous times Space Hunter has shot his spam-swarms at me when I'm at a station and should be safest, the many times Ayn Eziert backrolls and when I'm stuck fighting a tactic that has been criticized many times on these boards he merely calls in his brother to shoot me from behind, then calls me a sissy when I run. SAF, you might hide behind your lack of rules, but what fun will you have when you've griefed out the itani who used to like Gray Space?

FM, not to question your authority, but this seems more of a problem with the players of the game than role playing, for I see no hint of storytelling in tboyz' post. Also I think moving this to role playing is almost like an attempt to cover it up, as I'm sure you would know that more players look in General than Role Playing.

"but this seems more of a problem with the players of the game than role playing"

Yes, it's a problem with the players of the game, not role playing and not SAF.

You know the rules of the SAF - just check the general information on the guild section.
The SAF is a guild of individual players, and yes, a lot of them are vets and some of them are pirates. And they do what they like.
Atm the main task of the guild is organizing CtC fights. The rest is... well, a nice group of people who like each other and do their own thing. Icarus and Phoenix grief like they always did, Cipobo trades like always, you get the point.
Sometimes we all meet in a sector, have a drink, and when an itani comes, everyone wants to be the first to kill him. That's a problem of too many serco players being in one sector, don't blame the SAF for it. We're not a guild of organized pirates or griefers.

"SAF, you may hide behind your lack of rules..."

Thank you, Laika, for proving smittens' point. Also, in my original post I was not adressing the SAF as an organized griefer guild (its just an UN-organized griefer guild), but I was adressing the veteran players who happen to be in the SAF.

Also, Forum Moderator, I would to see this string back in the General message board, even if only for a few days. I would like to see player's reaction and see if they agree. Perhaps we could start an anti-SAF movement? Who knows? Anyway, it would be great if you could just put this string back on the General forum for a few days. Thank you.

It happens both ways, so don't think that it's just the SAF griefing Itani.

Yesterday, Niki was challenging Serco Proms to fight him, so I went looking for him. After engaging his Centurion, some Itani in a Valk (I don't remember who atm) came up from behind and started shooting the crap out of my tail end. Good thing he was using Ions (I haven't figured that one out yet) or else it would have ended really quickly for me. I didn't complain too much because I WAS in Sedina B8, although I did ask the player not to do it again (although IIRC, was kinda rude about it... sorry).

If you really want a private fight where no one interferes, go to an empty sector. Don't fight on the normal spacelanes, especially not in Sedina B8, Sedina O6, or Odia B13 (or whatever the wormhole from Sedina is), because it's pretty much free-for-all there.

[Locked]

EDITED because My first answer was a result of me not reading your post well.

I thought you called people like Lin griefers.
But you clearly don't. You just addressed that topic to Lin and the others to watch it. Sorry. wrong readed

This is the sort of thing that makes me want to leave SAF.
-:sigma.SB

NoAddedSugar> I think in that statement tboyz was merely pointing out the numerous vets Serco have, though I may be wrong.

Yes, some itani do use the tactics mentioned above, but can you name five off the top of your head? Who have played the game long enough to know what's right and wrong? With as many vets as they do Serco should be leading an example of honorable fighting, not showing off how superior they are by crushing n00bs and experienced players alike.

Phoenix, I'm glad that this isn't locked, because that would just prove my point of SAF hiding and avoiding any issues of this. There has really been little if no flaming (though I can understand how you would see the talking about you as flaming) and locking this is just putting the problem away until another Itani gets pissed off enough to start another thread. Maybe arrogantly keeping discussions from taking place is a good way for those in charge to maintain peace among themselves but it really comes off as tyrannical of you in the end.

Griefing definitely isn't any fun. It adds a very negative experience to the game.

I would think a kill in a no fire zone should result in instant standing drop for the faction of that station. Griefers would then only be able to grief once per station.. after that, they get aerna seekers in their face...

I don't really mind the grifing the SAF does to the Itani due to them being mostly Serco and way. How ever I do not like the way they bully UIT members into helping them, I made a post about this before. Basically I was using an UIT alt and took some Serco CtC cargo then got a bunch of threats from a SAF member for what I did, to include him telling me he would grief me into UIT space. This ain't that big of a deal to me but if I had been a nOOb well I know I would have cared allot. i.e. Oh yay, another game with crazy grifers, and it looked so good to. *me does not ever play the game again*

I agree with what smittens said, the SAF is just a legalized pirate guild. The hide behind there little loop holes.

Note: There are many nice people in the SAF, heck I was almost one of them. To those thanks for the good way you conduct your self's, I hope one day you'll have a guild that's full of people is like you.

Our behaviour is a mixed bunch. We make a fairly loud impression by having some of our most active players, (And PK's) in the guild, for the obvious reasons.

We won't nerf ourselves or conduct, however there are several of us who will relay a message about pacivity and ask others to step down from griefing. Others don't take so well to being provoked repeatedly by players, having somone sit in a station and insult you, then come out... Well, the result is a net.

There has been a few very obvious "camp the station" nights, Such as cargo night in sedina L2 and Bractus C5, where people of both nations meet up outside stations and try to control it for an advantage in the cargo games.

Theese nights it can be -many- players, I think the top I've seen on itani was 13 at once (players) and last night I clocked more than 8 players... ON EACH TEAM.

When the crowd dissipates (end of cargo round) and a bunch of us stick around, The end result is fairly obvious. The serco, both SAF and non-SAF, stick around, goofing, playing the new ships against eachother and playing tag, while some poor abandoned itani sits and celebrates a hollow victory inside the station.

The others break free and leave (Dammit, I hate you Holden, for getting away from my lumbering beast of a ship ;) Some of the ones who have been getting on our nerves earlier ( repeatedly seeker spamming, going for ages in pursuit, or just homing in L2 and attacking everything (including station guards? ) ) Will get special attention by players. We do get into more or less personal vendettas.

As for others who deal this way, I sort of wonder how much faction standing _Ghost_ took for killing me like that, And I can chalk down several deaths outside stations (getting in. So far noone has killed me getting out... *knock on wood*)

Personally, I would take a detour in order to kill a person like Smittens, if only for his past behaviour. My strongest memory was him and somone else (samsonite? ) harassing Serco n00bs outside the initros->ukari wormhole, repeatedly attacking and attempting to kill everyone.

After an episode like that (or like jsteiner .... ) a nick burns into your head and stays there, giving me little reason to listen to anything about "harassing".

Followup. Who -ever- calls Ayn a vet? *cough* Anevitt? We are quite a few vets around, some utterly well behaved like Lin, Ruby, Laika(?) Cip, Spellcast, RelayeR. Others with a more dubious status, like myself, crippled, yoda. And a few wellknown PK's who act their role down in perfection, like Icarus, Phoenix and Amarus.

Calling us a legalized pirates guild is pulling it too far, and an insult to many of us who do not do it. Attempting to pull out all-covering rules is the mistake that many other guilds have done in the past, We are a collection of friendlies, who work together, and work well together.

Frankly, Borb. You've just insulted me, and I'd wish you to restate your take here.

@Apex: Thats already the case with standings, want to make them even more broken? just see what happens now when some sodding bastard kills a serco outside an itani station. Adding more such "one, you're out" things will just make the problem worse.

@OP (subject: RPG/no rpg) This is -very- much Role Playing. This is -all- about the roles we play in the game. Do not for a moment confuse that some of us don't actually -roleplay- this game, both in attitude and behaviour.

This, Is all about the Roles played.

<< have been griefed multiple times by SAF vets, station-killed while trying to dock, and swarm spammed as soon as I left the station. I have been killed in cold blood in the middle of duels with other players. I have been given warnings to leave certain sectors by SAF members and been killed as I was trying to jump out. I have been unnecesarily mobbed by large groups of Serco vets, and their stupid insults annoy me =p >>

lol
wonder what is your name in game

i love propaguande :o)

i hav a complaint too
stop griefing me.

each time i travel in greyspace and meet a itanis or UIT
they try to kill me

at stations, wormholes, and mostly when i am geting fun to destroy a bots (itani convoys).
please leave me alone. stop griefing me.

The description of the forum reads:

"Discussion of in-game events, organizations, and the like."

This relates to an organization, seeing as it is an open letter specifically addressed to the SAF. Things like this will continue to be placed in Role-Playing where they belong. People who are interested in such things will look here. 12 responses in roughly 4 hours doesn't sound like a backwater forum to me.

Spider> I think you've made some fair points, though I still agree with tboyz, so I'd like to respond to your memories of of Samsonelite and my escapades at the Ukari station. First, that was a long time ago, and I hope I've made up for any dishonorable actions I took part in back then. Second, Sam and I were way outclassed by Ruby, Relayer, and others, so I'm sure they knew they were in no real danger. Third, it was by a station, and if the Serco who were there did not feel it was okay to repair then I guess my assumption was wrong, even though both sides would swoop into a docking bay to heal if they started losing health, and there seemed to be no problem with that. Fourth, for both sides there was little if no killing or shooting inside the NFZ, and if there was on my part I would again like to appologize for my n00b-ish-ness and desire for a kill that I had at the time. Fifth, both sides could easily have run away if they so desired, so I would hardly call that griefing. As for the vendetta between you and me, that started even before the Ukari Station escapade, I believe with me running from you and us exchanging insults.

Nya> Please look up propaganda, although I do know what you're trying to say. Your second post (why did you make a new one...?) reminded me of a point I had meant to make earlier, but forgot about. Spider mentioned it and throughout the boards and game people mention KOS lists they have. KOS lists of SPECIFIC PEOPLE. If you want to grief someone, don't make it those of us who try to lead most of our space lives honorably, do it to those who have done it to you (not that that makes it okay). Also please don't start trying to mock us because this is a real issue that you have been known to take part in, and poking fun at it to evade this issue strikes me as childish on your part.

smittens: please reformat your post.

Spider, Sorry for insulting you, I did pull it to far. There are a few SAFers who could be called "pirates." It's just that these few (and I'm sure you know of them better then I do) are giving the SAF a bad name. The SAF is full of great people the meaning of my post was just to try and give some constructive criticism to help y'all become better. I'll admit I may have gotten a little cared away, and for that I'm sorry. I would just like to see an SAF thats does not kill any one they run into even if they are not doing CtC. (Thats a generalization. Not all SAFers do that just trying to make a point.) I think the SAF should be seen as more protectors then any thing else. But I know a lot of UIT (who have never even played CtC) say oh no, there are SAF in that sector don't go there.

Again, I don't mean to insult you good SAFers just asking why you don't make some more rules too keep your more *ahem* free and easy members under-control.

First off, Forum moderator: you are right. it does belong in role-playing. And I was wrong about saying this wouldn't get any publicity.

Smittens: Thank you for making that point about Nya13's insipid post. It only further presses the point that the SAF attempt to hide their wrong-doings.

Spider: Thank you for your well-thought out and fair arguments on the point.

Borb: Great point. Restated:

In my original post, I never generalized that ALL SAFers pirated or griefed. But the actions of a few non-honorable SAF members has tainted your guild, thereby tainting ALL of the members in the guild. When I enter a sector and bring up the list of who's in it, and see an SAF name, regardless of whether or not they are honorable I still group them with the SAF. If you wish to escape this title as a griefer/pirate guild, may I reccommend creating a new one, allowing in only the honorable players. That could *possibly* clear your names. Solra, who I admire a good deal, even mentioned this. One thing I haven't noticed on this board, however, are ANY apologies. You SAF members (dishonorable OR honorable) have had a lot of people ragging on you about your griefing WHICH you have admitted to, and yet not even a simple apology? A shame. I KNOW that even the Serco are capable of a bit of decency.