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I really do not think the Apu17s are as much of a hurdle more than the rewards are too small. With a couple of hours of practice killing one became a matter of time or credits (energy or missiles) more than skill. Besides, what would an advanced combat mission be without a challenge anyway?
I would like to see an increase in kill XP for Apu17s though. Lower level characters may have problems being accepted into groups the way it is now because you will want as many Apu17 killers as possible in your group.
On a side note; when a lower level character joins a group it should add appropriate bots so they are able to pull their weight.
Tip: Mapping the grey sectors may reveal more favourable hunting grounds.
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O.
I would like to see an increase in kill XP for Apu17s though. Lower level characters may have problems being accepted into groups the way it is now because you will want as many Apu17 killers as possible in your group.
On a side note; when a lower level character joins a group it should add appropriate bots so they are able to pull their weight.
Tip: Mapping the grey sectors may reveal more favourable hunting grounds.
__
O.
The problem with leveling in VO, most often manifested in public awareness by the issues with A-17s, is actually a bit more complex than most people seem to acknowledge.
The most obvious problem, yes, is the EXTREMELY sudden jump from 'kill 5 collectors in one area' to 'kill X bots in a bunch of sectors all over the place, some found only 3 systems apart, most extremely aggressive or under escort'.
The A-17 is a lot harder than any collector, and can and will eat any new(unskilled) player alive. I have little trouble with them, though killing them is time consuming, because I am a long time player of space sims. However, this does not apply to the E&B refugee, the EQ player in search of greener pastures, or the casual gamer who just wants something to do. They WILL NOT play a game that jerks them into having to enter a sector wherein their very PRESENCE triggers two bots, assault or guardian, into attacking them without provocation, and then, while they are under attack, requires them to find a relatively rare bot which is always escorted, get its attention, and kill it before it and its 2-5 buddies(depending on how many of its escort attack you, plus the two that attacked on sight) eat you alive. Sure, there are missile tricks, but try to assimilate this simple fact:
Some people do not like missiles(I hate them); others cannot afford to replenish their ammo constantly. Some people hate trade missions, others hate seeking weapons and want something that requires a little skill.
For those who suggested the group missions, those start giving 17s at combat 5 or 6, and it's not long before the mission, solo or group, is a nightmare to complete. Besides, FORCING everyone to play in groups is a stupid, stupid, stupid, STUPID move. Not only is it unendurably self centered(well, *I* don't mind grouping, so you shouldn't either), but it's also completely in contradiction of the "make yourself what you want to be" attitude the game promises.
What realism is there in trying to adopt the character of a fearless space vigilante or a reclusive pirate, if you're always having to group up to do anything effective? I like playing alone, personally, and group play, while tolerable, tires me. I'm not alone in this attitude, and locking out everyone who is less tolerant of grouping than me kills an appreciable portion of the market, for no good reason at all.
The fact that there is NO known sector(save maybe to some of you greyspace mappers) which contains A-17s with less than 3 other types of bot is a huge flaw.
What really pisses ME off is not the effort entailed in killing 17s, 18s, D3s, A-47s, or anything else, it's the COMPLETE AND UTTER LACK OF LOGIC in making the mission 10 times harder, then having the brazen nerve to reduce the reward from 1000 combat exp. and 250 or 350 heavy and light exp. to something like 350 combat and 210 light and heavy weapon exp.
So you go from 1700 total exp. in about 5 minutes work to 850 total exp. in 30 minutes of work, and AT THE SAME TIME the amount of exp. needed for the next level goes from a few thousand to more than ten, with only further increases to be seen in the future.
The result is that the amount of time required to level reaches truly Everquestian proportions in a shockingly short period.
If I were not aware that these missions are just stress testing and placeholders, I would have quit the game and told everyone I knew to avoid it. As it stands, I have high hopes that the missions released that will actually appear in the final version will be a bit more balanced, but I'm not betting the farm till I have some assurance. (I am preordering, though. ^^)
As it is, I want those of you who think there is not a problem to contemplate how many people do NOT pay attention, and already have seen that the amount of exp. they can get in a certain period of time DECREASES, have done just this. You say you like this game, but you don't seem to want it to succeed a whole lot, because you sure as hell are not supporting resolving the issues that CAN AND WILL kill this game deader than E&B.
I have watched this game for nearly a year, and I have wanted it to do well in the market the entire time. I think it's got more potential as a form of entertainment than any MMORPG I have ever seen before. However, if this kind of problem becomes endemic in the release version, the great unwashed masses WILL pass it up for something more transient and gratifying.
The most obvious problem, yes, is the EXTREMELY sudden jump from 'kill 5 collectors in one area' to 'kill X bots in a bunch of sectors all over the place, some found only 3 systems apart, most extremely aggressive or under escort'.
The A-17 is a lot harder than any collector, and can and will eat any new(unskilled) player alive. I have little trouble with them, though killing them is time consuming, because I am a long time player of space sims. However, this does not apply to the E&B refugee, the EQ player in search of greener pastures, or the casual gamer who just wants something to do. They WILL NOT play a game that jerks them into having to enter a sector wherein their very PRESENCE triggers two bots, assault or guardian, into attacking them without provocation, and then, while they are under attack, requires them to find a relatively rare bot which is always escorted, get its attention, and kill it before it and its 2-5 buddies(depending on how many of its escort attack you, plus the two that attacked on sight) eat you alive. Sure, there are missile tricks, but try to assimilate this simple fact:
Some people do not like missiles(I hate them); others cannot afford to replenish their ammo constantly. Some people hate trade missions, others hate seeking weapons and want something that requires a little skill.
For those who suggested the group missions, those start giving 17s at combat 5 or 6, and it's not long before the mission, solo or group, is a nightmare to complete. Besides, FORCING everyone to play in groups is a stupid, stupid, stupid, STUPID move. Not only is it unendurably self centered(well, *I* don't mind grouping, so you shouldn't either), but it's also completely in contradiction of the "make yourself what you want to be" attitude the game promises.
What realism is there in trying to adopt the character of a fearless space vigilante or a reclusive pirate, if you're always having to group up to do anything effective? I like playing alone, personally, and group play, while tolerable, tires me. I'm not alone in this attitude, and locking out everyone who is less tolerant of grouping than me kills an appreciable portion of the market, for no good reason at all.
The fact that there is NO known sector(save maybe to some of you greyspace mappers) which contains A-17s with less than 3 other types of bot is a huge flaw.
What really pisses ME off is not the effort entailed in killing 17s, 18s, D3s, A-47s, or anything else, it's the COMPLETE AND UTTER LACK OF LOGIC in making the mission 10 times harder, then having the brazen nerve to reduce the reward from 1000 combat exp. and 250 or 350 heavy and light exp. to something like 350 combat and 210 light and heavy weapon exp.
So you go from 1700 total exp. in about 5 minutes work to 850 total exp. in 30 minutes of work, and AT THE SAME TIME the amount of exp. needed for the next level goes from a few thousand to more than ten, with only further increases to be seen in the future.
The result is that the amount of time required to level reaches truly Everquestian proportions in a shockingly short period.
If I were not aware that these missions are just stress testing and placeholders, I would have quit the game and told everyone I knew to avoid it. As it stands, I have high hopes that the missions released that will actually appear in the final version will be a bit more balanced, but I'm not betting the farm till I have some assurance. (I am preordering, though. ^^)
As it is, I want those of you who think there is not a problem to contemplate how many people do NOT pay attention, and already have seen that the amount of exp. they can get in a certain period of time DECREASES, have done just this. You say you like this game, but you don't seem to want it to succeed a whole lot, because you sure as hell are not supporting resolving the issues that CAN AND WILL kill this game deader than E&B.
I have watched this game for nearly a year, and I have wanted it to do well in the market the entire time. I think it's got more potential as a form of entertainment than any MMORPG I have ever seen before. However, if this kind of problem becomes endemic in the release version, the great unwashed masses WILL pass it up for something more transient and gratifying.
Anyone consider that we may be exploiting a basic combat misson bug? That to be ale to hit that sweet spot and stay there allows us to level extremely quickly? In fact so quickly that when we switch gears to another combat mission we hit the reality of the mission and are shocked?
Regarding hving to do a scavnger hunt of bots. Never fear! The format for the mission is suspossed to change soon (tm). As we've said before the devs are working to correct this problem and it should be comming out before the public sale.
It is also quite possible that bots will be added in different sectors as the player driven storyline progresses.
The bots you have to kill to get to the higher levels have higher xp and you get higher mission bonuses.
There is not supposed to be a leveling treadmil in this game. I got the impression that the first levels were to get you aquainted with the game play and then you'd have access to all kinds of equipment. Around level 5 you should be able to defend youself, use evasive actions with your ship and focus on other aspects of the game (to be relased soon! I've heard about them and I implore you to stay to at least the Public release)
Unfortuately, I'm trying to not abuse my privilaged position so I cannot tell you too much.
Regarding hving to do a scavnger hunt of bots. Never fear! The format for the mission is suspossed to change soon (tm). As we've said before the devs are working to correct this problem and it should be comming out before the public sale.
It is also quite possible that bots will be added in different sectors as the player driven storyline progresses.
The bots you have to kill to get to the higher levels have higher xp and you get higher mission bonuses.
There is not supposed to be a leveling treadmil in this game. I got the impression that the first levels were to get you aquainted with the game play and then you'd have access to all kinds of equipment. Around level 5 you should be able to defend youself, use evasive actions with your ship and focus on other aspects of the game (to be relased soon! I've heard about them and I implore you to stay to at least the Public release)
Unfortuately, I'm trying to not abuse my privilaged position so I cannot tell you too much.
sarahanne you know i have heard that "the dev are aware and working on the problem" line so many times it like saying "the end is coming repent now, for the second comming of christ is here"
There's a difference. People don't keep complaining about Christ's lack of features.
well the thing is iv takin on a couple APU-17's a b4 and id have to say that they are pretty hard but lets face it im only at 3/2/1/0 and i can kill 1 b4 i have to repair. It took me awile to get used to there "stratagy" but once you figure it out you can kill at least 1 b4 u die.(this is of coarse asuming that u arnt a true newb)
I can think of several occasions when there has been some glaring error that remained unfixed for a time while the actual work on the game progressed.
Anyone remember the GandhiBots?
I am not saying that we should not harp on the problems.
It is our responsibility to harp on each and every problem, real or imagined.
I'm just politely suggesting that we may have covered this one well.
Anyone remember the GandhiBots?
I am not saying that we should not harp on the problems.
It is our responsibility to harp on each and every problem, real or imagined.
I'm just politely suggesting that we may have covered this one well.
I think you may be right, Mariner.
I hope my commentary was at least sensible, if not terribly useful to anyone.
I hope my commentary was at least sensible, if not terribly useful to anyone.
Ok, after spending all last evening doing the Group Combat mission, I can say that the Apu-17s are NOT impossible. Just bloody difficult, heh.
Myself, Jessamy, and Lenszemn (Sorry if misspell your names, guys!) were having a grand old time killing Artemis, Apu-5s and Kannicks, when one of us died, causing us to get the dreaded Apu17 in our list. We'd already all been spanked repeatedly trying to take it at different times that night, in other groups, and were not looking forward to it again.
We met up in Verasi M1. I was flying a Hog with Tach2 and PlasDev, they both had Rags with Missles. We set a plan - the Apu was the last bot on the list. We'd jump into m3, target the first one on the list, and kamakaze it. The goal was to take it down before one of us died so that we could get the XP for the mission.
...Naturally, we all ended up on seperate corners of the asteroid field ;)
I quickly threw up the bot list, but found myself too far away from the Apu-17s to target them. I had a pair of Devus D3 gunning for me, so I ABed straight into the field and started circling the 'roids while trying to get a lock on the Apu-17. I finally managed to, ABed straight at it from above, and UNLOADED my Tach and Plasma into it. It turned, and we dog-fought for a good 45-60 seconds with it's escort's fire all around me, when I took it down in a blaze of fire! I IMMEDIATELY turned for empty space, as the Devus' just caught up, and burned all the way to 3k and jumped out.
Only seconds after my kill, lenz also got an Apu-17 kill after unloading a good number of Swarms on it ;D
We emerged from the sector all alive and 350 Combat XP Richer. My hull was only at about 65%.
It IS possible. It's not easy, but I'll tell you, that was the MOST FUN I have EVER had in this game - PERIOD. Emboldened by our success, we went on to complete about 4-5 more lists before I called it a night, and while he never got another Apu-17 in the list, we did get a good number of Fennus (Nearly Identical to the Devus D3, but with Gravitons :P ), and handled them all without issue.
I see why the Apu-17 is dreaded. I also see now that it CAN be done, in a Medium Attack Ship Dogfighting alone. I also know that my skills improved DRAMATICALLY last night.
So take heart, and get a little crazy, and you just might pull it off. My ONLY complaint now is, only 350 XP??? ;D
Myself, Jessamy, and Lenszemn (Sorry if misspell your names, guys!) were having a grand old time killing Artemis, Apu-5s and Kannicks, when one of us died, causing us to get the dreaded Apu17 in our list. We'd already all been spanked repeatedly trying to take it at different times that night, in other groups, and were not looking forward to it again.
We met up in Verasi M1. I was flying a Hog with Tach2 and PlasDev, they both had Rags with Missles. We set a plan - the Apu was the last bot on the list. We'd jump into m3, target the first one on the list, and kamakaze it. The goal was to take it down before one of us died so that we could get the XP for the mission.
...Naturally, we all ended up on seperate corners of the asteroid field ;)
I quickly threw up the bot list, but found myself too far away from the Apu-17s to target them. I had a pair of Devus D3 gunning for me, so I ABed straight into the field and started circling the 'roids while trying to get a lock on the Apu-17. I finally managed to, ABed straight at it from above, and UNLOADED my Tach and Plasma into it. It turned, and we dog-fought for a good 45-60 seconds with it's escort's fire all around me, when I took it down in a blaze of fire! I IMMEDIATELY turned for empty space, as the Devus' just caught up, and burned all the way to 3k and jumped out.
Only seconds after my kill, lenz also got an Apu-17 kill after unloading a good number of Swarms on it ;D
We emerged from the sector all alive and 350 Combat XP Richer. My hull was only at about 65%.
It IS possible. It's not easy, but I'll tell you, that was the MOST FUN I have EVER had in this game - PERIOD. Emboldened by our success, we went on to complete about 4-5 more lists before I called it a night, and while he never got another Apu-17 in the list, we did get a good number of Fennus (Nearly Identical to the Devus D3, but with Gravitons :P ), and handled them all without issue.
I see why the Apu-17 is dreaded. I also see now that it CAN be done, in a Medium Attack Ship Dogfighting alone. I also know that my skills improved DRAMATICALLY last night.
So take heart, and get a little crazy, and you just might pull it off. My ONLY complaint now is, only 350 XP??? ;D