Better yet, try attacking a Hive Queen. It has an entire sectors' worth of high level bots guarding it. Aerna Transports, Devus guardians, aputechs, assaults, everything. If you get caught in the hailstorm of fire from those bots even once, you'll be lucky to be alive.
You'll learn how to dodge really quick! GREAT PRACTICE!

Crippled Pidgeon: I think that if you review this thread, you will find that, yes
one or two advocated removing ApuTek-17s from the game, but not me. The
main thrust of this thread is that the A-17s are a huge leap in difficulty and that
it needs to be rearranged a bit to allow newer players to learn and advance accordingly. I also need to point out that I am neither new to the game (I've been
playing for almost two-and-a-half years) nor am I one who lacks patience or who
demands "instant gratification." I am reasonably sure I will figure out how to advance as I have always in the past. I am only stating that the current system
needs to be "fixed." Yes, I am aware that this is a Beta, and yes, providing
this input is part of my "job" here.

hmm... Yeah, the Apu-17's are a bit of a jump in difficulty from the artemis collectors most (I'd hope, at least) of us are killing with ease by the time we hit combat 4 with the beginner combat mission, and it took me some time to figure out how to kill them easily. I didn't try it until it was a moot point, but I understand that the group combat missions are better than the advanced (solo) combat missions for a pilot who is relatively new to the game and has just hit combat 4 (however, a good pilot could probably take 17's in little more than a bus). Yes, APU-17s should probably not be mandatory introductions to the combat missions until a player has had time to advance slightly past combat 4. It sounds like there are a lot of changes approaching the mission system in the very near future, however, and I'm sure many of our concerns will be adressed (personally, I'd like to see a list of bots you need to kill when you accept ANY combat mission [not a one-by-one type thing like the advanced combat missions are now], possibly an increase in the bonus of combat missions other than the beginner mission, and I'd like to be able to find all the bots I need to kill for one mission in one system, for starters... but now I'm getting off topic).

Now, for me, the 17s are rather easy to kill (and yes, they do only travel in groups as far as I know). I usually fly a hog when I kill them - I like my heavy weapons and the hog's agility. Yes, moving a bit into the heavy weapons tree helps some. I just had to figure out how to pull it off (I hadn't yet figured out how to take the 17s [or do group missions solo], so I had to use stingrays on Artemis collectors). For now, anyone who's having trouble with the 17s should probably ask around, I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who can help you. It'd be nice if there were some easier or more blatantly obvious way to GET help or advice from higher level players or something along those lines (e.g. "You were killed by an ApuTech-17 Guardian. Adding 3 bots to your list. This is the 25th time you've been killed by an ApuTech-17 Guardian today. Hey you noob, go HERE for help: ...")

*Edit* Oops, forgot to mention one thing :)
- No, I know soloing group combat missions are NOT a solution, but they work as a temporary fix, and judging by the statements of the devs, it sounds like we won't need this fix much longer.

Here's a tip that I picked up while battling them (I also don't have a problem killing them):

Get in a GREAT first shot. I mean, before they really have time to hammer you, shoot the hell outta them. Best way to do that: Missiles....lotsa missiles.

I actually made a Hornet that could take out an apu-17 in about 5 secs with 4 Yellowjackets. Just all four four times (16 missiles) and watch it die. Easy-peasy.

If you want to engage with tachs, you need to learn some basic dogfighting. They are good at dodging, so it can take some time, but you'll kill em eventually.

RelayeR's detailed Aputech-17 killing instructions:
1) Upon entering sector, avoid bots while locating 17 formation.
2) Set a course that will intercept the formation from behind and attempt to lock onto the 17.
3) Shoot the 17 once (or as many times you want) so the formation will follow you.
4) At a relativley safe distance from other bots in the sector (and roids) turn to face the formation.
5) Engage strafe L or R and engage retro (reverse). This will keep the formation bunched together.
6) Shoot the bejezuz out of the 17 while hitting rotate when the bot fire gets close. (use rotate CCW for strafe right and rotate CW for strafe left)
7) after the worthless piece of crap blowz up reeeeel goood, turn away from the formation (but not directly) and boost to the booty in an indirect manner.
8) leave the sector triumphant.

For added effect and ease of blast:

First time you're up, spread out a funnel of 4 jackhammers, make sure they hit in between the two Aputech-17 of a squad, and preferrably takes out the Valent-47 Assault ship. That keeps them occupied.

After this, they should be down at 25%, roll to a side, boost away and make sure they follow, do a quick turn and elect one of them for the next two missiles. That should have him either dead or at 10% or so. A single hit will take them down after this.

Then blast the second one while rolling around, avoid any intruders at this point, this is where you are most likely to be snuck up on by fex. an Orne guardian. take the second one on and kill him, then ride out the rest of the troupe. Usually its an R-18 guardian as well. rolling keeps the gauss off, taking it out with energy is easy.

Go in for seconds, then rearm.

Rattmann: "Crippled Pidgeon's disdain for lesser players..."

Beginner here myself, and i had 2 Pilots stopped dead at 4222 - you don't even have the fancy weapons (tachyons/jackhammers) some ppl use for the 17's, and the step from the quite easy dentek collectors to Aputech 5 is already hard enough. Finding out that Artemis Collectors are a bit stronger than Dentek Collectors and give +100 light/heavy weapon helps a bit in getting better equipment, didn't even know that collectors differ that much in weaponry and exp. Is there a bot list somewhere where a interested newbie can check which bots to go for after he manages a certain type successfully?

mh

CrippledPidgeon and RattMann:

Please stick to the topic and refrain from addressing each other.

I've been playing about 2 weeks. I had trouble with the A 17's too. They are a bugger, and they don't keep nice company. I lost about 100K in ships before I gave it up for a bit, so I could train up a bit for them. First I went and practiced on lesser bots. Apu-5's seem to fly similar patterns. Then I practiced on some fennus-18. Then I went out for the missions again.

Here's what I do;
Fly into the sector and locate the little beasty. Then using my lats and up and down and such, get into a parallel course above the the thing. Then start dropping down toward him using the down thrust. Let about 5 or 6 stingrays loose. Follow their track down, and about the time they start hitting, (and he starts bouncing around confused from the missiles), you should be in firing position. Let loose the Tach II gun and boom. Since you already have the down reverse movement going you just gotta AB out of reach of his buddies and jump back to station sector. If you have to come around for a second pass, it's not impossible, but you're gonna take damage, but the tach will finish him off.

The ship: Warthog Mk.IV (a freaking awesome ship)
Guns: Stingray Missile, and Tachyon Mk.II

The only thing I would like to see different is a little more variety of bots in the missions, besides A-17's and Artemus collectors and Apu-5's. I'm guessing this is because of the beta mission engine that's currently in use.

Cheers!
~GW

<RattMan> "Crippled Pidgeon's disdain for lesser players and RelayeR's chirpy optimism notwithstanding, it seems that most people are having problems with A-17s and leveling up. That is the message here.
Personally, I no longer have the reflexes of a teenager, and don't have enough time away from the real world to play as much as I would like."

RattMan, I've been acused of a lot of things but "chirpy optimism" was never one of them! Take it back, I say!!
We know that everyone is having trouble with 17s, that's why we responded. It's not as much trouble as some think and, it is more trouble than others think. There are solutions though and mine is proven...by me! A terrible fighter...one of the worst!

As for you not having enough time or the reflexes of a teenager, I work a full time job that often has 10 and 12 hour days and a family. I am also, one of the older (if not the oldest) players here.

I was hoping we would be moving AWAY from discussion of personalities and more toward the topic at hand, oh ancient one.

I'm feeling "locky"

Sorry FM. I'll TRY to be good.

Sorry FM, I will be good. :)

Since our friend the FM has effectively scotched an interesting (but inappropriate)
subject, I would like to address another issue that has been mentioned by a few
contributors to this thread. That is the idea that players should not be worried
about getting blown up because it's "so easy" to get Credits, and that nothing is
"real" or that the penalty for being destroyed is so minor. It was also stated that
one will never learn anything without a few deaths. It takes time and effort to
accumulate Credits. The time and effort is REAL. This gives VALUE to the Credits
and the ships and equipment that players aquire. The loss of these "assets" is a
true loss to a player and is not to be taken so casually. Although I agree that one
must suffer some loss to gain experience, the loss cannot be disregarded simply
because the existence of the asset is only a few bytes on a server someplace.

Unrelated statement directed to no specific individual: In a few days I will be 58
years old. I lay claim to the title "Oldest Vendetta Player."

RattMann wrote:
>Unrelated statement directed to no specific individual: In a
>few days I will be 58 years old. I lay claim to the title
>"Oldest Vendetta Player."

I agree ;-)

I was thinking that with my 36 years i would be the oldest man
in the vendetta universe. You're making me feel young ;-)

Ya I just turned 36 this year also.

On the way this topic has proceeded shows that some would rather get in ego pissing matches then deal witht he real subject. Its not how hard the 17's are or about tatics for taking them out. Its more about the number os sectors they spawn in and the distance of systems you have to travel to get to them. If your Itani then traveling 4 systems is a pain...

on the other hand why bother this game isnt going anywhere besides the long list of failed games with a diminishing fanboi flaming community.

have a nice day

You seem pretty smug with your prediction of utter failure for this game.

I’ve looked at the posts and I think several people mentioned that the A-17 are a known hurdle, the devs know this and will correct this imbalance, and there were suggestions given to help players get over the current hump without having to wait for the next release.

The real subject was "dealt with."

Thank you, sarahanne.

I've been hitting brick wall in the game with the A17s as well and some of the posts have given useful tips. Been playing mostly in arcade mode cos it's easier, never thought about kiting in physics mode - duh - (and me a veteran ex-PW as well, shame on me). Thanks to those positive contributors with the good tips, I'll give 'em a try :) Maybe it's because I'm flying a Ragnarok, kicks like a mule, steers like a cow :P Hit the ABs and it takes a week to get up to speed lol