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So sorry, I thought this game was going to be released as a online game with monthly pay, released into a saturated market with cutting edge competition were players have the attention span of mere hours. I must apologize.
Yes people are lazy, people want satisfaction reasonably fast. If you dont want people like that in this game then you probably failed to see the whole point of this market.
Solutions like:
Find high level people to help you get on with the game
Die X number of times and rebuy X number of ships to learn how to deal with this one obstacle to get on with game.
Find a group to get on with the game.
Will just not cut it, above all not so early into the game that people have not yet decided wether or not to play. I may be a noob here but ive seen plenty of online games and obstacles like that most people will not even try to get past. "Well then they can go play some other game" seem to be a common reply to statements like that, sure they can, and they will, and THAT is the problem dont you see?
Yes people are lazy, people want satisfaction reasonably fast. If you dont want people like that in this game then you probably failed to see the whole point of this market.
Solutions like:
Find high level people to help you get on with the game
Die X number of times and rebuy X number of ships to learn how to deal with this one obstacle to get on with game.
Find a group to get on with the game.
Will just not cut it, above all not so early into the game that people have not yet decided wether or not to play. I may be a noob here but ive seen plenty of online games and obstacles like that most people will not even try to get past. "Well then they can go play some other game" seem to be a common reply to statements like that, sure they can, and they will, and THAT is the problem dont you see?
Once you have a cent and tachs, the task becomes 'tricky' at best.
Try physics mode for multiple bots. Backing up makes them all sorta clump up in front of you, at which point it becomes quite possible to dodge the junk they're shooting.
Try physics mode for multiple bots. Backing up makes them all sorta clump up in front of you, at which point it becomes quite possible to dodge the junk they're shooting.
I've killed aputech-17s alone.
Though without grouping, leveling would take a hell of a lot longer.
Though without grouping, leveling would take a hell of a lot longer.
Sarahanne: "...went 36 bots without an A-17." I punched-up the individual combat mission and the first bot was an A-17. Selected the "single group" mission and the second bot was an A-17.
Yokom: "...you have to fly four systems to get them." YES !!! A huge problem and
a huge waste of limited playing time.
Yokom's reply to Forum Moderator's method of killing A-17s is right on. An estimated 57 hours to level is absurd. I can't break my experience down to hours,
but it was taking an average of THREE WEEKS to progress from level 8 to 9, and
from 9 to 10. And that was BEFORE A-17s.
Crippled Pidgeon's disdain for lesser players and RelayeR's chirpy optimism notwithstanding, it seems that most people are having problems with A-17s and
leveling up. That is the message here.
Personally, I no longer have the reflexes of a teenager, and don't have enough time away from the real world to play as much as I would like. This means less time to practice, to develop skills and/or maintain skills.
Less time to play + quantum leaps in bot difficulty + overlong, tedious leveling
process = Frustration. Frustrated players = People who probably WON'T be customers.
I've stuck with this game for a long time, and I'm not ready to quit yet. There are
many good things about the game, and I think there will be more. I know the Devs are working thier asses off to get Vendetta going. The the leveling process
is the biggest stumbling-block to this game's success. And what is beginning to shake my faith is the fact that it is getting WORSE instead of better. Unfortunately,
for most of us leveling IS the game. We cannot do much of anything else without
the equipment that can only be aquired through the leveling process.
Devs, hear our cries....
Note to RelayeR: You may need to castigate "Umbrood" for his unbridled sarcasm.
Yokom: "...you have to fly four systems to get them." YES !!! A huge problem and
a huge waste of limited playing time.
Yokom's reply to Forum Moderator's method of killing A-17s is right on. An estimated 57 hours to level is absurd. I can't break my experience down to hours,
but it was taking an average of THREE WEEKS to progress from level 8 to 9, and
from 9 to 10. And that was BEFORE A-17s.
Crippled Pidgeon's disdain for lesser players and RelayeR's chirpy optimism notwithstanding, it seems that most people are having problems with A-17s and
leveling up. That is the message here.
Personally, I no longer have the reflexes of a teenager, and don't have enough time away from the real world to play as much as I would like. This means less time to practice, to develop skills and/or maintain skills.
Less time to play + quantum leaps in bot difficulty + overlong, tedious leveling
process = Frustration. Frustrated players = People who probably WON'T be customers.
I've stuck with this game for a long time, and I'm not ready to quit yet. There are
many good things about the game, and I think there will be more. I know the Devs are working thier asses off to get Vendetta going. The the leveling process
is the biggest stumbling-block to this game's success. And what is beginning to shake my faith is the fact that it is getting WORSE instead of better. Unfortunately,
for most of us leveling IS the game. We cannot do much of anything else without
the equipment that can only be aquired through the leveling process.
Devs, hear our cries....
Note to RelayeR: You may need to castigate "Umbrood" for his unbridled sarcasm.
Well it has beene said before, by the devs, that the beta is just a leveling treadmill. The mission system is just a testbed for the mission framework. Story based missions haven't been put in yet. That's when missions would actually get fun rather than just an exercise in tedium. Try out the Recon missions. Those are pretty fun right?
And Umbrood:
<Find high level people to help you get on with the game>
-Why is this hard? Make some friends or two. Going through life as a loner is always harder than going through it with friends.
<Die X number of times and rebuy X number of ships to learn how to deal with this one obstacle to get on with game.>
-If you don't die you never learn how to fight. The penalty for death in this game is very low. You lose no exp. or license levels. All you lose is money, which is pretty easy to earn back with a few trade missions.
<Find a group to get on with the game.>
-Read my bit about making friends.
And Umbrood:
<Find high level people to help you get on with the game>
-Why is this hard? Make some friends or two. Going through life as a loner is always harder than going through it with friends.
<Die X number of times and rebuy X number of ships to learn how to deal with this one obstacle to get on with game.>
-If you don't die you never learn how to fight. The penalty for death in this game is very low. You lose no exp. or license levels. All you lose is money, which is pretty easy to earn back with a few trade missions.
<Find a group to get on with the game.>
-Read my bit about making friends.
While it's all nice and wonderful to hear how we should be making friends in game and cheating the system by making group missions to running them solo, this does not solve the problem of uneven learning curve for noobs, who will be the ones bringing the money to guild software.
consensus is that Advanced combat missions are bullshit. no matter what us, alpha testers, are saying won't change the FACT that killing "apu tech 17" in battle formation on the second day of you playing vendetta IS FUCKING HARD. a-17 might be a little bit souped up version of a-5. problem here is that a-5 was more or less alone. a-17 never is.
please consider this statement. killing apu tech 17 bot while you played the game for less than 10 hours. did you have time to make friends? probably no. did you have time or opportunity to learn how to dodge? no, not really. what will be my opinion of the game after i get killed 20 times by a-17 escort gaining 0 exp in the process?
consensus is that Advanced combat missions are bullshit. no matter what us, alpha testers, are saying won't change the FACT that killing "apu tech 17" in battle formation on the second day of you playing vendetta IS FUCKING HARD. a-17 might be a little bit souped up version of a-5. problem here is that a-5 was more or less alone. a-17 never is.
please consider this statement. killing apu tech 17 bot while you played the game for less than 10 hours. did you have time to make friends? probably no. did you have time or opportunity to learn how to dodge? no, not really. what will be my opinion of the game after i get killed 20 times by a-17 escort gaining 0 exp in the process?
The problem many say, are not the A-17 alone, but at the sector you need to fight the A-17 ther many other bots.
Suggetion:
Set into some empty sector or any sector where now only A-5, some A-5 and A-17 or some sector with only A-17. Then the newer pilote can learn handle harder bot's wihtout always get killed bye a bunch of hard bots.
Don't know how it work, but hope you have a sector list and can easy manage it to set some A-17 into some sector. So all have the chance to get there combat level up to test all out in this beta.
*salute*
MickeST
Suggetion:
Set into some empty sector or any sector where now only A-5, some A-5 and A-17 or some sector with only A-17. Then the newer pilote can learn handle harder bot's wihtout always get killed bye a bunch of hard bots.
Don't know how it work, but hope you have a sector list and can easy manage it to set some A-17 into some sector. So all have the chance to get there combat level up to test all out in this beta.
*salute*
MickeST
Just hit Combat license 4, and I must say... whoa.
Aputech 17's post a huge problem for me at my current skill level. While I agree that the challenge is a welcome from the tedious "kill 5 bonus" tree that I'm used to, I think the jump may be a little much.
I say add another combat training level... Beginner from 0 to 3... Intermediate from 4 to 7... Advanced from 8 and beyond. Keep beginner how it stands, but make the intermediate something along the lines of "Kill 5 Aputech-5" instead of A-17s.
Now I know you may be sitting there thinking "If you just learn how to kill them now, it will be easy..."
Well, the last time i thought an MMO was too easy, i quit it. The perfect ammount of "moderation of challenge" is the key to keeping players happy. Too much, they quit because it's a treadmill. Too little, they quit because it's easy.
Aputech 17's post a huge problem for me at my current skill level. While I agree that the challenge is a welcome from the tedious "kill 5 bonus" tree that I'm used to, I think the jump may be a little much.
I say add another combat training level... Beginner from 0 to 3... Intermediate from 4 to 7... Advanced from 8 and beyond. Keep beginner how it stands, but make the intermediate something along the lines of "Kill 5 Aputech-5" instead of A-17s.
Now I know you may be sitting there thinking "If you just learn how to kill them now, it will be easy..."
Well, the last time i thought an MMO was too easy, i quit it. The perfect ammount of "moderation of challenge" is the key to keeping players happy. Too much, they quit because it's a treadmill. Too little, they quit because it's easy.
Rattman is 100% on the spot, could not have said it better.
And Magus, I do agree with you as well. All things that are easy to do, and that one should do, but if you knew the average mmorpg player also would know that people dont do.
Again I realise this is being looked into, I am sure the devs know this market as well as most here and realise the error. This is beta after, and our job is to make sure this product has as big a chance as possible to make it once released, I am just trying to fit that role.
As I understand it this mission system is far from done and will not be the one into retail, just as long as precaution is taken to prevent this feeling of helplesnes some of us feel when we hit Clvl4.
And not being a english speaking native I have to go look up castigate.. :)
And Magus, I do agree with you as well. All things that are easy to do, and that one should do, but if you knew the average mmorpg player also would know that people dont do.
Again I realise this is being looked into, I am sure the devs know this market as well as most here and realise the error. This is beta after, and our job is to make sure this product has as big a chance as possible to make it once released, I am just trying to fit that role.
As I understand it this mission system is far from done and will not be the one into retail, just as long as precaution is taken to prevent this feeling of helplesnes some of us feel when we hit Clvl4.
And not being a english speaking native I have to go look up castigate.. :)
Umbrood: He wanted me to either "severely criticize" you or "whip" you...neither of which are my intentions. :)
Please note that I said "too much" instant gratification. I understand the concepts of "attention span" and "limited playing times" but this is not rocket science and teaches two very good lessons needed in this game. 1) Experiment...bots are not the same. What works for one type may not and probably does not work for others. 2) Look at the tools at your disposal. I chuckle every time I see someone write here or chat in-game that they can't find A-17s. They are listed on the map. I spend a good portion of my playing time mapping the bot locations in "Gray Space" because those bots are not listed on the map.
It took me one death to figure out how to kill an A-17. After that experimentation period, I now kill A-17s without sustaining more than 5 or 10% damage. And, ask anyone, I suck.
Please note that I said "too much" instant gratification. I understand the concepts of "attention span" and "limited playing times" but this is not rocket science and teaches two very good lessons needed in this game. 1) Experiment...bots are not the same. What works for one type may not and probably does not work for others. 2) Look at the tools at your disposal. I chuckle every time I see someone write here or chat in-game that they can't find A-17s. They are listed on the map. I spend a good portion of my playing time mapping the bot locations in "Gray Space" because those bots are not listed on the map.
It took me one death to figure out how to kill an A-17. After that experimentation period, I now kill A-17s without sustaining more than 5 or 10% damage. And, ask anyone, I suck.
You've been playing forever. The point is valid. It took me three weeks of PvP before I knew what the hell I was doing, and newbs nowadays are going to have to play for monthes before they get equivalent experience.
Hell, Apu-17's still give me hard time. I can't kill them in an energy ship without taking a lot of damage, unless I cheat by sneaking up right behind them and unload. This game is about FIGHTING stuff, right? Not relying on the AI not noticing you until you've pumped 5k of tachyone into it's butt?
Right now, to kill Apu-17s, I load up a stingray hog. You jump into the sector, avoid the bots while they form their wings, then find an Apu-17. Get within 500m, and spam 7 or 8 stingrays at it, and shoot it once or twice with your s-port weapon. Then you bascially turbo for for distances at right angles to the bot, staying about 300-500m away - the stingrays will start smacking it down. Their splash might give you other bot kills.
If it's still alive after the 7 stingrays, shoot a few more and repeat the turbo scheme.
It works. It's ugly and expensive as hell, but it works. When a1k0n tones down the homers again I doubt it will anymore and then I'm in trouble.
Hell, Apu-17's still give me hard time. I can't kill them in an energy ship without taking a lot of damage, unless I cheat by sneaking up right behind them and unload. This game is about FIGHTING stuff, right? Not relying on the AI not noticing you until you've pumped 5k of tachyone into it's butt?
Right now, to kill Apu-17s, I load up a stingray hog. You jump into the sector, avoid the bots while they form their wings, then find an Apu-17. Get within 500m, and spam 7 or 8 stingrays at it, and shoot it once or twice with your s-port weapon. Then you bascially turbo for for distances at right angles to the bot, staying about 300-500m away - the stingrays will start smacking it down. Their splash might give you other bot kills.
If it's still alive after the 7 stingrays, shoot a few more and repeat the turbo scheme.
It works. It's ugly and expensive as hell, but it works. When a1k0n tones down the homers again I doubt it will anymore and then I'm in trouble.
ARGH! I wish I could tell you but I can't reveal too much of my knowledge. These issues will be addressed. It is a BETA test and the mission descriptions are placeholders.
RANDOMIZE
This game is not for everyone but it hopefully will fill a nitche market.
Not comming from a MMORPG system I'm not sure what types of expectations a player has of this game.
I'm a casual gammer and I'm quite happy with my leveling rate. I'm still stuck on some bots but I've made it to 4/4/3/4 and I'm quickly approaching 5/4/4/5.
I'm happy that dying has no lasting damage to my xp/licenses.
I'm happy that making money isn't too difficult so I've been able to make enough credits to replace ships by picking up the cargo the bots drop and reselling it.
I'm okay with getting blown up becuase it is part of the learning curve. I try it again and keep looking for new attacks. I keep trying out different weapon combinations to see which matches my style the best.
I think the Chat on channel 100 can be really fun especially when certain players are online. :)
I've been able to find people to group with me and people to answer questions.
I've been able to kill over 500 bots. Including 2 A-17!
I'm still trying to beat the waste bot mission, so far I've tried different ships and different weapons, I've gotten it down to 1 bot several times but he doesn't want to move away from the other bot and the splash damage sets off the explosion. I spent over 2 hours and 100K trying to beat this mission. Okay I didn't do it but I got close, so I'm moving on to something else for a awhile to earn back the credits (which I already did) and try out some new techniques.
RATTMAN
I did the group mission solo two more times and got to 41 and 32 without an a-17 and both times I had to quit becuase I needed to do something off line. I guess the mission computer likes me :)
RANDOMIZE
This game is not for everyone but it hopefully will fill a nitche market.
Not comming from a MMORPG system I'm not sure what types of expectations a player has of this game.
I'm a casual gammer and I'm quite happy with my leveling rate. I'm still stuck on some bots but I've made it to 4/4/3/4 and I'm quickly approaching 5/4/4/5.
I'm happy that dying has no lasting damage to my xp/licenses.
I'm happy that making money isn't too difficult so I've been able to make enough credits to replace ships by picking up the cargo the bots drop and reselling it.
I'm okay with getting blown up becuase it is part of the learning curve. I try it again and keep looking for new attacks. I keep trying out different weapon combinations to see which matches my style the best.
I think the Chat on channel 100 can be really fun especially when certain players are online. :)
I've been able to find people to group with me and people to answer questions.
I've been able to kill over 500 bots. Including 2 A-17!
I'm still trying to beat the waste bot mission, so far I've tried different ships and different weapons, I've gotten it down to 1 bot several times but he doesn't want to move away from the other bot and the splash damage sets off the explosion. I spent over 2 hours and 100K trying to beat this mission. Okay I didn't do it but I got close, so I'm moving on to something else for a awhile to earn back the credits (which I already did) and try out some new techniques.
RATTMAN
I did the group mission solo two more times and got to 41 and 32 without an a-17 and both times I had to quit becuase I needed to do something off line. I guess the mission computer likes me :)
Actually, I don't mind the A-17's backing. its the bloody orne guardian (defender?) that keeps following on my tail while I beat them that gets me.
To get them you have to be fast. in, strike, out, circle a roid or five, then in again. Leverage some distance, and if you have the possibility, do the first strike with Jackhammers or other rocket target (not missiles, rockets!) in order to cause big splash-damage on the whole team.
To get them you have to be fast. in, strike, out, circle a roid or five, then in again. Leverage some distance, and if you have the possibility, do the first strike with Jackhammers or other rocket target (not missiles, rockets!) in order to cause big splash-damage on the whole team.
>Actually, I don't mind the A-17's backing. its the bloody orne
>guardian (defender?) that keeps following on my tail while I
>beat them that gets me.
Thats why it is called 'group mission' (hint, hint) Not only the bots are allowed to work as a group ;-)
>guardian (defender?) that keeps following on my tail while I
>beat them that gets me.
Thats why it is called 'group mission' (hint, hint) Not only the bots are allowed to work as a group ;-)
Then you will have twice the bots shooting at you. I've noticed that when you enter a sector, one or two bots will lock on instantly, while the rest will ignore you until you shoot at them. If two players try to fight, then they have two groups of bots trailing them. I witnessed this behavior earlier today as I and a groupmember tried to take out an Arklan guardian. Both of us had a tail of 3-4 bots as we harrased the main group surrounding the Arklan.
One of you may decide to 'collect' the bots following the other ;)
Well IMO the problem is that they r TOO far away.
i really hate to fly from one system to another just to kill 1 of them and then fly back to get others.
i really liked that n00b missions where u had to kill Oruns and DenTeks, they were all on one spot and u had non-stop combat without searching and flying back to station for repair or boring stuff.
personally i would like to have a "rechargeable shield", not a non-regenerating hull.
but i think im going to make a new thread about that lol.
i really hate to fly from one system to another just to kill 1 of them and then fly back to get others.
i really liked that n00b missions where u had to kill Oruns and DenTeks, they were all on one spot and u had non-stop combat without searching and flying back to station for repair or boring stuff.
personally i would like to have a "rechargeable shield", not a non-regenerating hull.
but i think im going to make a new thread about that lol.
Umbrood: Don't worry about being "castigated" by anyone. In another thread,
RelayeR had given me a gentle reproach for MY sarcasm, and I was just pointing
out to her that I am not the only sarcastic one here....
RelayeR had given me a gentle reproach for MY sarcasm, and I was just pointing
out to her that I am not the only sarcastic one here....
A full gun boat setup is a good way of killing multiple apus.
was able to kill 2 in +- 5 mins(max), prolly more like 3 mins.
It would be however a bit more fun if as soon as you entered a sector there wherent these bots chasing you just for fun...
Or they should break off of you if you didnt fire at them for like a certain time (kinda like losing interest)
was able to kill 2 in +- 5 mins(max), prolly more like 3 mins.
It would be however a bit more fun if as soon as you entered a sector there wherent these bots chasing you just for fun...
Or they should break off of you if you didnt fire at them for like a certain time (kinda like losing interest)
RattMann, it's not destain for lower players, it's distain for seemingly endless "I took the Advanced mission and got killed by the fsking Apu-17!!!! They should be removed from the game entirely!!!!" Which is pretty close to Genesisss' "i really liked that n00b missions where u had to kill Oruns and DenTeks, they were all in one spot and u had non-stop combat without searching and flying back to station for repair or boring stuff [sic]" A lot of players are expecting instant gratification when they SHOULDN'T. If it were that easy to sail through experience levels, then what would be the point? If anything, the first four experience levels are TOO easy because new players exploit the Basic Mission and aren't ready for the "Real World (tm)" where bots won't just sit there and let you kill them. BE PERSISTANT! DON'T EXPECT THE WORLD TO BE HANDED TO YOU ON A SILVER PLATTER. It'd difficult, yes, but if you're combat four, you have access to a major portion of the weapons and ships available. You need to know your fighting style, and be able to adapt that to any enemy that comes your way. If you're not willing to die a few times in the process, then I think that you have your goals in the wrong place. Don't even think about your kill ratio. Personally, I think that I should be removed from the player stats entirely because it gives players the (mistaken idea) that the ratio is important. Dying is an important part of the learning process in this game, and emphasizing the absence of deaths is the wrong idea.
Here's a nickel's worth of free advice for all of you who are frustrated with attacking the Apu-17s. Try attacking low and mid-level transports. They fly in packs just like the Apu-17, just the escorts are easier, like collectors and Apu-5s. Figure out how to deal with groups of easier targets, and you'll get an idea of how to deal with groups of harder targets.
If you think that attacking an Apu-17 is hard, try attacking an Aerna Transport. If I remember correctly, it's escorted by DenTek Assaults and Devus Guardians. Not only that, but the Aernas will fight back with a vengence. It's difficult (for me, at least) to take all of them out without leaving the system at least once to repair, but the payoff is really nice (the lowest cargo you can pick up is generally worth over 3000 credits). In comparison, the Apu-17 is easy.
And as I said, if you're having THAT much trouble, ask anyone who's been around for a while about strategies for defeating them. Many of us in the Veterans' Guild would love to help newer players gain their levels. Just the other day, L E X asked me for help against higher level bots, and after I gave some advice (okay, so it was a lot of advice), he/she was able to take out the ApuTech-17 with very little trouble. Granted, I've been helping out L E X on-and-off since he/she joined, so I was more willing to reveal more secrets, but if you ask, I'd be willing to point you in different directions to see if you get more success. Again, if you're playing and still having trouble, ask one of us for help. If you ask nicely, I'm sure that someone will say yes.
Here's a nickel's worth of free advice for all of you who are frustrated with attacking the Apu-17s. Try attacking low and mid-level transports. They fly in packs just like the Apu-17, just the escorts are easier, like collectors and Apu-5s. Figure out how to deal with groups of easier targets, and you'll get an idea of how to deal with groups of harder targets.
If you think that attacking an Apu-17 is hard, try attacking an Aerna Transport. If I remember correctly, it's escorted by DenTek Assaults and Devus Guardians. Not only that, but the Aernas will fight back with a vengence. It's difficult (for me, at least) to take all of them out without leaving the system at least once to repair, but the payoff is really nice (the lowest cargo you can pick up is generally worth over 3000 credits). In comparison, the Apu-17 is easy.
And as I said, if you're having THAT much trouble, ask anyone who's been around for a while about strategies for defeating them. Many of us in the Veterans' Guild would love to help newer players gain their levels. Just the other day, L E X asked me for help against higher level bots, and after I gave some advice (okay, so it was a lot of advice), he/she was able to take out the ApuTech-17 with very little trouble. Granted, I've been helping out L E X on-and-off since he/she joined, so I was more willing to reveal more secrets, but if you ask, I'd be willing to point you in different directions to see if you get more success. Again, if you're playing and still having trouble, ask one of us for help. If you ask nicely, I'm sure that someone will say yes.