Or, for that matter, if a bunch of non-noobs are defending a monitored station, or attacking a Hive instance in monitored space, and one accidentally kills another (friendly). This is for that exact purpose. We hope to simultaneously add more group missions, while also removing all Friendly Fire limits, so accidental team kills will become more probable.

Anyone reading the Removal of Friendly Fire RFC will see that I'm going to be banishing people to Corvus for excessive friendly kills (temp KoS, for increasing periods of time depending on number of offenses), this is one more thing to help avoid that scenario for situations that don't warrant it.

The only two exploits are 1) That people can gain free PvP kills which they already could in unaligned space (as previously noted here) and 2) that people could demand a ransom (funds) from the killer in exchange for forgiveness. 1) is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. 2) is mitigated by the short time period (15 seconds) and the fact that the killed party cannot chat (they are muted) during the time while the decision-making popup menu appears.

I see no other possible exploits, at all. And I would think the benefits are pretty starkly obvious, even if one leaves out any future development and just considers the game as it is. Yes, there may be ways of recovering standing quickly, but not as quickly, so regardless, it's a convenience with no downsides at the moment.. and will evolve into more of a requirement as we go along.

I prefer to get the requirement stuff in place before they're needed, whenever I can.

As one followup, people can also now duel comfortably in nation space if they so desire (as long as they're willing to risk accidental non-forgiveness). I would think that's also a decent benefit.

Ok team kills I can see a need for something like this. So why 15 seconds and why not an option to auto team/group/buddy/guild members?

just make it part of the tutorial so newbs know what it means exactly. insted upon stumbling upon it by chance

Will NPC's have some formula to calculate whether or not they should punish or forgive based on faction standing or something? Or will it remain the same?

I guess a fixed timer makes sense. But I still think 15 seconds is a bit short...can we get 30 at least? I know there have been times I've played when I'm too tired or uh...otherwise affected, and wouldn't be able to understand a simple sentence unless I read it a number of times, which can easily eat up 15 seconds. And that's not even being a confused newb!

Yeah that's sort of a "What if" freak situation, but with something as big as standing loss I'm a supporter of better-safe-than-sorry.

Also, auto forgive checkboxes for group/guild/BUDDIES/etc would be nice.

[edit]
Or here's a super idea. How about instead of just auto-forgiving with previously checkboxes, the default action if the dead person doesn't respond in time is to forgive. So, if I have "Forgive all guild members" checked, but then it turns out slime is a total dick and kills me, the "Forgive?" popup still comes up with the *30* second timer, and I can punish him for being a dick. However since I did have the checkmark checked, if the 30 seconds run out he gets auto forgiven instead of auto punished. Does that make sense?

So basically, what Smittens is asking for is:

• 30 second timer instead of 15.

• Toggles which change the default state to forgive certain groups of people (group, guild, buddies) at the end of the timer instead of punish them.

I like both ideas :P
Or, this might make it have too many options, but how about being able to change the timer duration instead of having a fixed one?

How do you make a player kill a noob as part of an automated tutorial?

On the other hand, I really like Smittens' idea.

30 seconds *at minimum* :)

But hooray for good ideas. I'm on a role the last few weeks!

Does "not forgiving" kills in grey-space cause standing drops for killers?

From a strictly RP point of view, they should.
It is, after all, recorded in pilots log (memory) so he can by "not forgiving" report the killer to his nation authorities. Goodbye faction exploits. :P

So if I kill Roda in B8 I'd lose all of my Itani standing? That'd be really really lame.

when is this timer started? Is it from when you enter the station or when the kill shot took place? I know for some people it can take a good 10 seconds from the kill shot to the station menu depending on network issues and the like. You also have the ship buyback to deal with as well.

Grey space is supposed to be dangerous. In an RP sense, if you report getting killed in grey space, the authorities would tell you it was your own damn fault for being down there in the first place. I personally don't think the kill forgiveness screen should come up at all if you're in unmonitored space. Forgiving a kill that wouldn't drop standing doesn't make much sense, because there's no point to it.

@slime
For the sake of argument lets presume that your Itani citizenship with POS status trumps his POS with Itani nation so you lose nothing and since his UIT citizenship status is hate or KOS, you do not lose UIT standing either.

In other words, how about you can lose standing only with the faction that pilot you killed belongs to?

diqrtvpe has a point.

The mute is a load of bs. If a player can get money for forgiving their killer good for them!

Besides, for the transaction to take place, they have to be in the same sector, which is very unlikely unless the killing takes place at a station the deceased is homed at. Absolutely ridiculous.

Apart from that, I agree with Smittens 30 second timer.

Also there is no reason for forgiveness in unmonitored space. Or for killing someone with respect or less, unless your planning to change the faction loss to count against lower status than admired.

Point is, forgiveness is going to only affect a small number of kills and hence should not be applied every time someone scores a pk.

From the current newspost:

A brief explanation of Kill Forgiveness: if someone kills you, in a location where they will lose faction standing as a result, you will have the option of "Forgiving" the kill, allowing them to not lose faction standing. This is a PvP-only thing, intended to help situations where accidental kills may result during grouped play. It's also very important to the upcoming removal of Friendly Fire restrictions, as this kind of accidental kill may become more common.

There is no forgiveness for unmonitored space. After all, there is nothing to forgive. We didn't change how standings worked, just added this feature on top of it.

Well, it is a step towards a full change in the way factions and ff work, so let's see how it fits in when other changes take place.

So this would not apply to station camping a noob? If you kill someone over and over and over (say 2 times a minute) and they are in mute for 15 or even 30 seconds then that does seem like an exploit me to but I could be wrong.

I was thinking the exploit stuff would fall under the auto mute when killed which seems totally bad. It's one thing to kill another player and another to mute them for it.

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An exploit (from the same word in the French language, meaning "achievement", or "accomplishment") is a piece of software, a chunk of data, or sequence of commands that take advantage of a bug, glitch or vulnerability in order to cause unintended or unanticipated behavior to occur on computer software, hardware, or something electronic (usually computerized). This frequently includes such things as violently gaining control of a computer system or allowing privilege escalation or a denial of service attack.