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Why wasn't the comparison done with the Hound loaded with everyone's apparent nemesis, a swarm launcher?
Tell me how many people fly with xgx/xgx/lenb/uc? No one. And even if it did, tri-energy is rubbish for chasing. I'm using simple energy/flare loadouts that *I see people use every day*.
You wouldn't know the first thing about what people use every day, since you don't play anymore.
You won that argument because the Hound needed a buff, but to become more specialised, it also needed various nerfs in the face-to-face combat scenario. It's a chaser, not a fighter.
Of course the hound is supposed to be better at straight distances that's its speciality; there's nothing wrong with it.
Yes, there's nothing wrong with its straight line distances, that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that it's far too specialised a ship to be able to do all other jobs so well as it does.
It's like trying to tell me that an XC should have 1 large port and engines 4 times as good as they currently are, even though it's already sacrificed everything for cargo space. It just shouldn't happen for balance reasons.
Lecter:
Mainly because swarms are a waste of a weapon, and the use of such a weapon would still happen even given the nerfs. I'm not suggesting that the swarm hound should be discouraged. That is not what this thread is about.
You wouldn't know the first thing about what people use every day, since you don't play anymore.
You won that argument because the Hound needed a buff, but to become more specialised, it also needed various nerfs in the face-to-face combat scenario. It's a chaser, not a fighter.
Of course the hound is supposed to be better at straight distances that's its speciality; there's nothing wrong with it.
Yes, there's nothing wrong with its straight line distances, that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that it's far too specialised a ship to be able to do all other jobs so well as it does.
It's like trying to tell me that an XC should have 1 large port and engines 4 times as good as they currently are, even though it's already sacrificed everything for cargo space. It just shouldn't happen for balance reasons.
Lecter:
Mainly because swarms are a waste of a weapon, and the use of such a weapon would still happen even given the nerfs. I'm not suggesting that the swarm hound should be discouraged. That is not what this thread is about.
its called spidey, the only Itan to ever actually figure out what a valk was for. It doesn't matter who fucking uses what loadout, it's dumb to compare them with actual loadouts and if you can't figure out why I guess that makes you a dummy too!
TRS: you have a habit of trying to overlook the initial idea and try to spew crap about how it "already does its job well". Maybe you should spend more time reading the reasons, and try to keep up.
Oh and play sometime, then I might give a crap about what you have to say.
We've lived with the Hound in its current form for almost a year. You've been away for almost a year. How would you know what it's like to deal with every day?
Oh and play sometime, then I might give a crap about what you have to say.
We've lived with the Hound in its current form for almost a year. You've been away for almost a year. How would you know what it's like to deal with every day?
You're telling me that we should compare ships while they are empty? That's just awfully stupid, even for you.
EDIT: the wiki is wrong about the valk, they have +100 mass than what is stated.
EDIT2: Fixed.
EDIT: the wiki is wrong about the valk, they have +100 mass than what is stated.
EDIT2: Fixed.
Speaking of rubbish, no one even knows what values your report program even dreams up. Not trusty if you can alter the values.
i'd like to add that both - TRS and Dr.Lecter - are clowns of the only-remotely-funny kind. rumors have it they are also twin brothers or a guy with shizophrenia sitting in his cellar too busy to play VO since hes gotta rage on the Forums when somebody wanna touch his precious Greyhound he bugged the devs years with until they got tired of the shit so they just buffed it.
anyway:
ist not the swarm hound that is scary and apparently no one has gotten that yet. it's also not the quick chasing of it that is scary. what really makes people frown is that when some pilot of minor skill gets sad cause he keeps getting punched in a furball he can go and grab a greyhound and do the following:
- enter the fight and get lucky shots
- once he got hit three times he can safely run away without awarding his opponent a PK because we know... it's fast as heck
the obvious can not be denied when lookin' at these 2 simple Facts not even with both our inactive super heroes trying their rhetotical best to batter down reasonable voices.
the hound is in fact meant to be an awesome chaser which it is. it can reliably chase down everything that runs. sadly it is also awesome in furballs because you can always make it away alive unless you are dumb or chased by other Hounds. so simply adjust the Hound so that it handles a little worse than now in PvP. various suggestions for this matter have been made. pick one of them devs...
anyway:
ist not the swarm hound that is scary and apparently no one has gotten that yet. it's also not the quick chasing of it that is scary. what really makes people frown is that when some pilot of minor skill gets sad cause he keeps getting punched in a furball he can go and grab a greyhound and do the following:
- enter the fight and get lucky shots
- once he got hit three times he can safely run away without awarding his opponent a PK because we know... it's fast as heck
the obvious can not be denied when lookin' at these 2 simple Facts not even with both our inactive super heroes trying their rhetotical best to batter down reasonable voices.
the hound is in fact meant to be an awesome chaser which it is. it can reliably chase down everything that runs. sadly it is also awesome in furballs because you can always make it away alive unless you are dumb or chased by other Hounds. so simply adjust the Hound so that it handles a little worse than now in PvP. various suggestions for this matter have been made. pick one of them devs...
Yeah the valk can also do that Absurd . And do you wanna know whats absurd the valk has 3 ports . It can be loaded with 2 flares and a neut and chase down any ship save the greyhound. But it's a
fighter not a chaser so why can it chase so well ? It was meant to fight not chase we should add more weight and remove some thrust
fighter not a chaser so why can it chase so well ? It was meant to fight not chase we should add more weight and remove some thrust
I know Sterre, in this case, most people are wrong. Dual flares is the build people do because most other people can't dodge flares, if you learn to dodge them it's actually the easiest to defeat.
I already won all of these arguments thanks to my trusty ship stat ratio comparison app
Which produces useless numbers omitting all addon mass. That's where the blatantly wrong comparisons that got us in to this mess in the first place came from.
It can be loaded with 2 flares and a neut and chase down any ship save the greyhound.
2 flare valks have a real hard time chasing most lighter fighters and will *never* catch something like a SVG with a competent pilot, even if the SVG is packing dual gauss or some other heavy loadout. The flares are for killing things quickly, and that's the tradeoff.
A valk can either have a lot of firepower for head to head combat or be a good chaser, it can't do both like the greyhound can.
Which produces useless numbers omitting all addon mass. That's where the blatantly wrong comparisons that got us in to this mess in the first place came from.
It can be loaded with 2 flares and a neut and chase down any ship save the greyhound.
2 flare valks have a real hard time chasing most lighter fighters and will *never* catch something like a SVG with a competent pilot, even if the SVG is packing dual gauss or some other heavy loadout. The flares are for killing things quickly, and that's the tradeoff.
A valk can either have a lot of firepower for head to head combat or be a good chaser, it can't do both like the greyhound can.
Actually all those graphs on there include 1000kg of addon mass, so its assuming that you add equal somethings to everything.
Itan's favourite trick is to pretend that just because the valkryie has 3 ports it HAS to carry the sunflare in at least one of them which is heavy as all hell and totally unnecessary. Therefore having 3 ports is somehow a disadvantage and thats why other ships like the greyhound are far superior.
"A valk can either have a lot of firepower for head to head combat or be a good chaser, it can't do both like the greyhound can."
Give us a break sunshine.
it's crap at dogfighting, it has crap armour. crap thrust, it's complete flare bait, its like 4 megaposi shots to kill it. making it even crapper is not going to do squat. The economics and the standing are the things that's wrong with it and the fact that you can buy a bulk sub to unlock an additional location for it at sedina. If they fix those things it will dramatically fall out of use anyway even with a stat buff to dogfighting.
What a load of monkey droppings from these two, if the hound is as good as the valkryie at dogfighting its only because you clowns are so terrible at flying them.
Itan's favourite trick is to pretend that just because the valkryie has 3 ports it HAS to carry the sunflare in at least one of them which is heavy as all hell and totally unnecessary. Therefore having 3 ports is somehow a disadvantage and thats why other ships like the greyhound are far superior.
"A valk can either have a lot of firepower for head to head combat or be a good chaser, it can't do both like the greyhound can."
Give us a break sunshine.
it's crap at dogfighting, it has crap armour. crap thrust, it's complete flare bait, its like 4 megaposi shots to kill it. making it even crapper is not going to do squat. The economics and the standing are the things that's wrong with it and the fact that you can buy a bulk sub to unlock an additional location for it at sedina. If they fix those things it will dramatically fall out of use anyway even with a stat buff to dogfighting.
What a load of monkey droppings from these two, if the hound is as good as the valkryie at dogfighting its only because you clowns are so terrible at flying them.
if the hound is as good as the valkryie at dogfighting its only because you clowns are so terrible at flying them.
We haven't said that. We just said it shouldn't be as good as it currently is because it's an interceptor, not a dogfighter. There's no good reason it should be better at dogfighting than the Mk3 Warthog.
Actually all those graphs on there include 1000kg of addon mass, so its assuming that you add equal somethings to everything.
Why? When you outfit a ship, it's never equal. But the general trend is:
more ports = more addon mass
large port addons mass > small port addon mass
So it is natural that the mass order works something like this:
3x Small > 1 Large, 1 Small > 2 Small
We haven't said that. We just said it shouldn't be as good as it currently is because it's an interceptor, not a dogfighter. There's no good reason it should be better at dogfighting than the Mk3 Warthog.
Actually all those graphs on there include 1000kg of addon mass, so its assuming that you add equal somethings to everything.
Why? When you outfit a ship, it's never equal. But the general trend is:
more ports = more addon mass
large port addons mass > small port addon mass
So it is natural that the mass order works something like this:
3x Small > 1 Large, 1 Small > 2 Small
I honestly don't see why we have to lay out all these damn figures. Incarnate has all these numbers plus whatever other hidden characteristics of each ship.
To re-iterate Kierky's point: The hound is TOO good at TOO much. Most people here have agreed with that, so lets see some comment or action from the devs.
TRS can cry and whine and misconstrue all day long with his attempts to make this a nationalist issue (which it is not) and various other misleading and/or completely false statements, but I trust Incarnate will see though his bullshit.
Let's get some balance up in here!
To re-iterate Kierky's point: The hound is TOO good at TOO much. Most people here have agreed with that, so lets see some comment or action from the devs.
TRS can cry and whine and misconstrue all day long with his attempts to make this a nationalist issue (which it is not) and various other misleading and/or completely false statements, but I trust Incarnate will see though his bullshit.
Let's get some balance up in here!
As if other ships like the Valk arent TOO GOOD at TOOO MUCH
This isn't about the Valk, stop trolling. Valk nerf suggestion posts are that way ----> (along with SVG and SkyProm nerf posts).
TRS here delivers the perfect example of how you can take actual game play experience and information about how the game is played, throw it all away and create your own twisted reality which he then claims to be the only truth.
Also, while I don't disagree with a potential Valk-nerf, this is a thread about the Greyhound and all Valk related suggestions should be discussed in a different thread. One seemingly overpowered ship (the Valk and or Prom, if you so decide) is not a reason to create a second overpowered ship (the Hound, if you can't follow) to create a balance between these two ships and ignoring every single other ship.
The Greyhound has been the most used ship on both sides of the group battles I have been in during the past few weeks. When one party is almost exclusively using the Greyhound it forces the opposing players to use one too to be able to keep up. This is regardless of what kind of weapons are used. The Greyhound can deal with any kind of weapons mass as it is now and swarms are furthermore not the cause for complaints.
Now would you use a ship in a group fight that doesn't have reasonably good dog-fighting capabilities? Probably not. This is why the Valk, Prom and Vultures were previously the most used ships in these scenarios.
Now the spot of the most used ship is clearly reserved for the Greyhound and you would know that if you were actually playing the game, *looking at TRS*. Still TRS and Lecter would probably argue against it for their own sake.
Also, while I don't disagree with a potential Valk-nerf, this is a thread about the Greyhound and all Valk related suggestions should be discussed in a different thread. One seemingly overpowered ship (the Valk and or Prom, if you so decide) is not a reason to create a second overpowered ship (the Hound, if you can't follow) to create a balance between these two ships and ignoring every single other ship.
The Greyhound has been the most used ship on both sides of the group battles I have been in during the past few weeks. When one party is almost exclusively using the Greyhound it forces the opposing players to use one too to be able to keep up. This is regardless of what kind of weapons are used. The Greyhound can deal with any kind of weapons mass as it is now and swarms are furthermore not the cause for complaints.
Now would you use a ship in a group fight that doesn't have reasonably good dog-fighting capabilities? Probably not. This is why the Valk, Prom and Vultures were previously the most used ships in these scenarios.
Now the spot of the most used ship is clearly reserved for the Greyhound and you would know that if you were actually playing the game, *looking at TRS*. Still TRS and Lecter would probably argue against it for their own sake.
- enter the fight and get lucky shots
- once he got hit three times he can safely run away without awarding his opponent a PK because we know... it's fast as heck
Valk pilots do what?
What I hear is that people are using a fast ship and giving up dogfight ability when engaged in group furballs where 1v1 combat ability isn't as important as hit and run ability. That's just so shocking, because...wait, that's exactly why Valks have trounced SCPs in group battles for years, despite the SCP's commanding abilities in actual head to head, not trying to run away combat.
What I haven't heard anyone say is that they can't beat a Hound, or a Hog Mk II, or a Valk because they're so OP. They just don't like not being able to dictate the terms of the engagement with their better but slower ships. Tough shit - welcome to every prom pilot's life since forever.
The simple fact is that people will always choose whatever the best interceptor is for the kinds of group combat that currently define VO: station conquest, NW, and to a lesser extent Deneb. That was previously the Valk 100% of the time; now it's the Hound a lot of the time and the Valk a lot of the time. Nobody's claiming a Hound is better than a Valk when the turbo comes off and the shots start flying. Wake me up when the Devs finally implement something to fight over where an area command ship like a SCP has the advantage. Until then Suggestions will be this stupid, endless furball over nerfing whatever's the best tradeoff between hitting and running.
- once he got hit three times he can safely run away without awarding his opponent a PK because we know... it's fast as heck
Valk pilots do what?
What I hear is that people are using a fast ship and giving up dogfight ability when engaged in group furballs where 1v1 combat ability isn't as important as hit and run ability. That's just so shocking, because...wait, that's exactly why Valks have trounced SCPs in group battles for years, despite the SCP's commanding abilities in actual head to head, not trying to run away combat.
What I haven't heard anyone say is that they can't beat a Hound, or a Hog Mk II, or a Valk because they're so OP. They just don't like not being able to dictate the terms of the engagement with their better but slower ships. Tough shit - welcome to every prom pilot's life since forever.
The simple fact is that people will always choose whatever the best interceptor is for the kinds of group combat that currently define VO: station conquest, NW, and to a lesser extent Deneb. That was previously the Valk 100% of the time; now it's the Hound a lot of the time and the Valk a lot of the time. Nobody's claiming a Hound is better than a Valk when the turbo comes off and the shots start flying. Wake me up when the Devs finally implement something to fight over where an area command ship like a SCP has the advantage. Until then Suggestions will be this stupid, endless furball over nerfing whatever's the best tradeoff between hitting and running.
If you haven't heard anyone say it, then you haven't been listening. You can't beat the hound because it's so OP. In the hands of a skilled, capable pilot it is 100% indestructible.
The ship is so fast that nothing else, save another greyhound can hope to catch it if the pilot decides the fight is going the wrong way for them and they want to leave. Not even the Valk or SVG come close in this department because they'll run out of battery and eventually have to slow down to jump, which allows the pursuer to at least see where they jumped to and follow.
None of that would be a problem if that's all it could do. If it sucked as a head to head fighter, it would be fine, but it doesn't. Hence this suggestion.
The ship is so fast that nothing else, save another greyhound can hope to catch it if the pilot decides the fight is going the wrong way for them and they want to leave. Not even the Valk or SVG come close in this department because they'll run out of battery and eventually have to slow down to jump, which allows the pursuer to at least see where they jumped to and follow.
None of that would be a problem if that's all it could do. If it sucked as a head to head fighter, it would be fine, but it doesn't. Hence this suggestion.
Valk pilots do what?
Valks can't escape as easily as Hounds. I can reliably get a few shots in shooting at fleeing Valks, I don't even have to try that against a hound except when its pilot fucks up and comes towards me.
That's just so shocking, because...wait, that's exactly why Valks have trounced SCPs in group battles for years, despite the SCP's commanding abilities in actual head to head, not trying to run away combat.
If any Serco actually knew how to properly group fight in a Prom (Ghost has expressed this in detail in the past and successfully demonstrated it on multiple occasions) and would actually force his/her group to follow tactics for once, everyone would know that statement is complete bullshit.
Multiple Proms staying together and guarding each others backs simply can not be easily dealt with regardless what ship you fly.
Valks and other ships capable of intercepting were/are only prominent in group fights because 1) Not enough people have enough experience with group tactics, and 2) Intercepting opponents and generally avoiding head-on combat is the easiest way to successfully fight in a group battle without necessarily having to coordinate with your teammates, because you're hard to hit anyway. No need to have someone watching your back.
What I haven't heard anyone say is that they can't beat a Hound, or a Hog Mk II, or a Valk because they're so OP.
As I said before, a Valk can be hit with slight difficulty when it decides to accelerate with turbo. A Hound is near impossible to hit in that same situation. That's all fine and good if the Hound wasn't an above average fighter at cruise speed.
The Hog mk2 is a complete joke compared to the Hound when it comes to turbo acceleration. I have tried using one in station conquest and didn't even have to try escaping from Hounds since they completely obliterated my ability to accelerate and flee.
If you look at the ship stats and know how the ship actually handles in-game, the Hog mk2 isn't even a better fighter at cruise speed than the Hound.
As it is now I find Greyhounds increasingly frustrating to fight against which is not the case when fighting Proms and Valks (combined if you will).
Valks can't escape as easily as Hounds. I can reliably get a few shots in shooting at fleeing Valks, I don't even have to try that against a hound except when its pilot fucks up and comes towards me.
That's just so shocking, because...wait, that's exactly why Valks have trounced SCPs in group battles for years, despite the SCP's commanding abilities in actual head to head, not trying to run away combat.
If any Serco actually knew how to properly group fight in a Prom (Ghost has expressed this in detail in the past and successfully demonstrated it on multiple occasions) and would actually force his/her group to follow tactics for once, everyone would know that statement is complete bullshit.
Multiple Proms staying together and guarding each others backs simply can not be easily dealt with regardless what ship you fly.
Valks and other ships capable of intercepting were/are only prominent in group fights because 1) Not enough people have enough experience with group tactics, and 2) Intercepting opponents and generally avoiding head-on combat is the easiest way to successfully fight in a group battle without necessarily having to coordinate with your teammates, because you're hard to hit anyway. No need to have someone watching your back.
What I haven't heard anyone say is that they can't beat a Hound, or a Hog Mk II, or a Valk because they're so OP.
As I said before, a Valk can be hit with slight difficulty when it decides to accelerate with turbo. A Hound is near impossible to hit in that same situation. That's all fine and good if the Hound wasn't an above average fighter at cruise speed.
The Hog mk2 is a complete joke compared to the Hound when it comes to turbo acceleration. I have tried using one in station conquest and didn't even have to try escaping from Hounds since they completely obliterated my ability to accelerate and flee.
If you look at the ship stats and know how the ship actually handles in-game, the Hog mk2 isn't even a better fighter at cruise speed than the Hound.
As it is now I find Greyhounds increasingly frustrating to fight against which is not the case when fighting Proms and Valks (combined if you will).
So wait, if we're nerfing features to officially make the hound a full compromise interceptor, shouldn't we make sure the hound is the second fastest(turboing) fighter in the game (after the Superlight)?