One is, that the lite model introduces more trouble than it is worth. Discontented chat spamming brats that drive away the otherwise long term population.

That's the exact reason for the originally-stated chat limitations. The current "free-to-play in training sector" situation is also chat limited. This could be relaxed a little bit, maybe they can chat once a minute or some such, but something to keep them from being too chaotic. (I believe WoW does something like this, for their "free until level 35" players?).

I, myself, would really like to see a significant increase in (targets) player population, free, lite, heavy, w/e.

I totally agree.. that is the goal. Just trying to find the path to get there that gives the best balance across the various issues..

I feel that anything short of a n1 vult, isn't a true taste of combat. Unfortunately, this is also about where a ship becomes a potential threat to vets.

In trading, a basic atlas should be enough, but anything short of a moth should be ok.

For mining, level 2 should be a good taste, but opens up mkii beams, which might be undesirable.

And I still think you should milk all the options. Station storage fees, optional ship colors, name change fees, etc... Some people have money to blow, and as a business man, it is your job to not only let them, but help them do it. Not only for lite customers, but for heavy customers. I would not even bat an eye if you charged for experience, credits, standing, etc, as long as the cost was high enough as to not totally undermine the hardcore player that wishes to do it all in game. If I spend an hour gaining something, and the next guy comes along and drops $10 bucks to gain the same thing, I am ok with that.

I do not keep up with the stock market, but if a guy spends enough money upfront, and you take a major portion of that revenue and invest it, you can support his account for life, on interest earned. Something to think about.

DE, if you would be so kind and re-read my post. I made a very clear outline of restrictions, and they're basically the same as what you just posted (only more detailed: Neut-Vult is in the package, as are the basic mining beams and the Atlas etc.).

And what I, as a customer, expect from Incarnate, as a businessman, is to not simply "milk all the options" and make it easy for people to "blow their money", but also to deliver a high-quality and enjoyable product. Which he does, and what he, luckily, seems to be concerned about. If I wanted to throw money at some unimaginative fat git who wants to "milk me" I'd be playing some Facebook games.

I still disagree with the idea of restricting the ability to use the chat. We want to make VO more involved, more interactive, more social, remember? How are we going to increase inter-player trade and group activities if a part of the playerbase is not allowed to communicate freely? And why are you afraid that people who decide that having a limited gaming experience for a month is worth a dollar will just be complaining or annoying the others?
The game provides perfectly sensible mechanisms to /ignore and /mute players that are annoying, spamming or abusive.

ya +1 andy

I love it how incarnate is so worried about what to do if we get too many players, how will we deal with the chaos!??!? how?!?!

I'm sorry I just don't see it, frankly that would be a good problem for VO to have. I know you have support concerns and what not, but it's nothing that can't be overcome with sensible policy.

Anyway Andy has done his research, and for that his answer should definitely be considered. The only problem is it seems a bit arbitrary to the outsider to restrict licenses at random places instead of one level across the board, kind of like we're intentionally trying to keep them out of the good stuff and push the product, that's what people hate about these kinds of entry level things. I think it's the smarter marketing move to limit the levels higher and adjust some of the items access levels.

Maybe set up whatever chat restrictions as an easily toggled admin option, but leave the restrictions disabled at first. Then if the lite people become problematic, the restrictions can just be flipped on without you guys having to scramble to put together a solution.

I am OK with Andy's license proposal.

I agree with ARF re. guilds - allow membership, but not leadership.

I had a thought, why don't you cap the licenses, and make the items and ships that you consider "threats to vets" Restricted?

I've never seen anyone pilot a threatening Vult Mk1.

So, for example.
EC-89 (0c)
EC-98 (213c)
EC-104 (Specially Sanctioned)
EC-107 [Restricted]
Centurion (473c)
MkII [Restricted]
MkIII [Restricted]
Revenant (943c)
MkII [Restricted]
MkIII [Restricted]
Warthog (2,984c)
MkII [Restricted]
MkIII [Restricted]
MkIV [Restricted]
Vulture (567c)
MkII [Restricted]
MkIII [Restricted]
MkIV [Restricted]
Atlas (2,000c)
MkII [Restricted]
MkIII [Restricted]
Hornet (3,349c)
MkII [Restricted]
MkIII [Restricted]
Ragnarok (9,000c)
MkII [Restricted]
MkIII [Restricted]
Centaur (6,740c)
MkII [Restricted]
MkIII [Restricted]
Behemoth (All Variants) [Restricted]
Mauds, Proms & Valks [Restricted]
Faction Variants of any ship [Restricted]

And make the ones that are restricted, when you click on them, it comes up with a window that says:
You must be a Full Subscriber to unlock this:
Vulture MkIII
[x] Never show this dialog again

Something like that?
Or, make the items and ships that you consider "threats to vets" invisible?

And make the ones that are restricted, when you click on them, it comes up with a window that says:
You must be a Full Subscriber to unlock this:
Vulture MkIII
[x] Never show this dialog again

Never, Ever, EVER do this. Keep all your upgrade marketing material on the website for the love of god.

Well there has to be somewhere that informs them of what they cannot achieve in Lite mode. You can't really count on newbs having common sense.

When they purchase a lite subscription, or see someone flying around in a Vulture Mk III or a skyprom, it's going to be pretty damn obvious.

The number one question on my mind, is if the mobile market supports a subscription payment plan. If it does, then you only have to sell enough options to get even close to full rate per month. For example, The lite package might only allow a single character, by the time they have 6 characters, they are more than halfway to full rate. And frankly, I think even vets would be willing to pay at least a $1 per extra character slot.

On the other hand, if someone can pay $1, one time, and play forever, then you need to figure out how to milk several hundred dollars out of them to support perpetual play. And in fact, I think this could be done, even $0.99 per item. A nickle, dime, or dollar, collected over enough items, can add up. $1 per available faction, $1 charge to open up each of n1, vult3, fast charge, atlas3, $2 for n2, high end fighters, $5 for proms, valks, aap, moths (each type), mining beams. It isn't long before you have billed for a years worth of play, and people that play years keep on spending, opening up more and more options. Total cost to open up all features could cost hundreds of dollars, but with unlimited play. Think of it as buying a 50 year subscription, on a pay as you use plan.

I doubt I will ever be a lite subscriber. Frankly, if the [Axe] model is significantly changed, I may abandon it, otherwise, it is like a minigame in itself, and without a supply of targets, the only thing keeping me entertained.

I am concerned with the mobile customer base significantly disturbing the peace. If you want to have typical chat access, fine, but create a sanctuary for full rate customers. Reserve channels 10,000 to 12,000 for full rate only. Restrict vote mute to full rate customers. Make the vote mute limit based on active full rate customers.

I think you're missing the point a bit.
[...] reducing barriers to entry and getting a higher population in our gigantic universe, something I support. [...] This should be a bit more palatable for people coming in from mobile, who are used to either F2P or extremely low prices. At the same time, it gives us some revenue from these users [...]
This is not about milking anyone. It is about "reducing barriers to entry", which could make more users buy the full sub and not be stupid and pay the same to get less. It's also not about the notorious "AXE model" of refusing to pay the devs money just for the hell of it.

You have still not answered why the "mobile customer base" should be "disturbing the peace". The "traditional" VO community of sophisticated alcoholic techsavvy nerds with a sense of humour will still gather in guilds (and we all know that everyone is in every other guild as well).

However I totally agree with Rin's "prepare for the worst, hope for the best" - principle and with your proposition of limiting "/vote mute" to full subscriptions and, slightly off topic, make it depend on the number of active users.

Estrian's model is also worth some consideration, but I totally agree with TRS that unavailable ships and gear should simply be invisible or marked as "Specially sanctioned personnel only" (or something along those lines). Having a text saying "Only in the full sub" makes it feel like a ripoff.

Anytime you dramatically "reduce the barriers to entry", some portion will be trouble. It is really only a small fraction, but that small fraction can be very vocal, disturbing not only your existing customer base, but also many of the incoming prospects. The fact that they have to at least get out of the training sector to cause trouble does go along ways. In fact, systematic communications limits based on in game achievements would help dramatically. The biggest problem players, are the ones that do not actually play. Limit communications to the training sector, or even no communication at all, while training. Limit com to system, until they leave the home system, or at least gain a level. This should reduce a major portion of disruption. Frankly, if they can not even be bothered to play the game, who cares what they have to say.

On the other hand, if you wish to advertise your community, they might should be able to hear.

You guys are a lot more generous than I was thinking, in terms of available content for the tier, I was operating on a much lower threshold even down in the 3s

I dunno how often you play your own game, Inc, but most of the addons you can buy below level 4 are a piece of crap. Especially if you're fighting other players. There are a few good ships you can get at least.

I've never seen anyone pilot a threatening Vult Mk1.
I have. He had dual sunflares though. :)

As for the "threat to vets", I can't stress this enough: BRING IT ON

If this means a slew of $1/mo Android-gimped newbie pirates stalking wormholes in pup-style Centurions, great! Maybe we'll actually have a use for these turrets and mine launchers on our trade ships.

The player learning curve for pvp is much higher than the character leveling curve. Without any outside assistance, I can be 3/3/2/1/1 in about an hour. That is a heavy power cell vult3 w/neutrons. In the right hands (mine), it will kill many of the vets. Give me a jackhog (3/3/4/0/0), and I send sunflare valks running for repairs, if they survive. Currently, I suffer extreme overhead in developing such characters. But the lite model would not have that same overhead. I do not expect lite pirates to overwhelm the galaxy, but given time, players will learn to pvp. And if current suggestions signal the future, time they will have.

I am not really opposed to this. I want more targets. I want my targets to be able to fight. I want traders to employ escorts. I have little to no concern about lite pirates. I am with you. "BRING IT ON".

But consider how much enmity my own existence has inspired. I am not sure everyone else is with us on this one.

Right, being an android player on VO for only two weeks (honestly I feel like I am the only one on here) I can tell you right now that a cut down tier'd version is just not going to work! There are like 20 different ships, of which many seem to look exactly the same making a cut down version even less appealing especially when being constantly raped by PC players with better gear and controls. This WILL NOT entice me into spending more money, players will get board without the potential for progression.

Make the game F2P but with adverts on android only, there is A LOT of flak on here regarding adverts all of which clearly comes from PC players, android players are used to it and will not really care! you are deluding yourself if you think this is not the case, the android ecosystem is based on cheap skates and people who are not willing to pay anything for a game and Pc players just don't seem to get his, unfortunately the evidence is right there! This is why android gaming systems on kickstarter raise millions in days! 100,000- 500,000 people have downloaded VO off play store at 1c per advert that could be 1k a day if everyone played once day...

Alloh's idea of grey space citizenship is intriguing if a little off, perhaps this could be twisted in such a way as to pit PC players against android players, PC players representing an elite player and android players just having greater numbers... Android players would be prevented from travelling into other areas by NPC defences but a load of them banded together could make it through, PC players being free to roam. Console players have been wanting a piece of PC players for how many years now??? the first cross platform game I can think of has such potential and it would be a shame to slip by un-noticed! As the game picks up you could take another look at payments.

As more and more players arrive so you could improve the economy and player created content would increase, PC players I assume would be better suited to take advantage of the bigger economy from the start but with the choice of action as well, while android players would probably focus more so on the combat but also have the option. The game would just be more playable on PC like most others and you pay for the privilege.

PC players could be able to mine better resources but resources would be required to build ships etc, meaning that PC players would have to venture and trade in greyspace requiring security etc and soon it all starts to snowball into a VERY complex game that required hardly any additional "design" content.

I seriously don't think that android players will switch to PC, android gamers are a new bread and play on there phones/tablets for convenience, my other half would prefer me to be sat playing on my phone in the same room than locked away in the study!

android players are used to it and will not really care!

I play on Android all the time and I'm so sick of apps with ads in them. I often run buggy/old versions of things just so i don't have ads constantly. More often, I'll just get an app from somewhere else that doesn't have ads, even if it means paying a couple bucks for something really stinking trivial.

I was pretty pissed off that the VO updater has one, since I'm already paying $10/mo for this.

Unfortunately you are in a minority, a very small minority at that! i don't know a single person who purchases android apps to get rid of the adverts so out of the 10 people I can think of off hand not one would purchase an app to get rid of the adverts especially not on a regular bases! FYI 50 million people installed the free angry birds space while only 500k installed the paid version and that's a one off for 69 pence!

Android players could be given the choice or you could just play it on PC?

Off-topic, but if any of the Android apps I've used were worth it, I'd pay money to get rid of the ads.

On-topic, I don't think that all moth variants should be restricted. Leave the lite subscription with access to the Aeolus Behemoth. it gets no love.

-1 to Spotfist
-9999999 to F2P
-99999 to DE # whatever