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I believe a conservative adjustment would be more likely to be implemented than anything drastic.
I am tired of even the pirates and the serco preferring to drive a valk. At this point I will take just about anything that will bring the valk closer to balance.
Work with me.
I am tired of even the pirates and the serco preferring to drive a valk. At this point I will take just about anything that will bring the valk closer to balance.
Work with me.
My suggestions are still out there, the ones that might actually do something.
Ok, I like this idea, peytros.
Give the serco a good figher and the itani a good weapons platform. And let the serco have an elite weapon platform and the itani to have an elite (not to be read: 5 times better then any other fighter out there) fighter.
Also, I find it a bit strange that the x1 is the same weight as the centurion superlight, which is, like, 1/5 of its size and only has one port v 3 ports... WAAAAAAAAAAAY too light for a figher of its size, ports, and armour!!!!
Give the serco a good figher and the itani a good weapons platform. And let the serco have an elite weapon platform and the itani to have an elite (not to be read: 5 times better then any other fighter out there) fighter.
Also, I find it a bit strange that the x1 is the same weight as the centurion superlight, which is, like, 1/5 of its size and only has one port v 3 ports... WAAAAAAAAAAAY too light for a figher of its size, ports, and armour!!!!
Something to consider:
The wraith/revenant is already a "lesser" prom.
The Cormaud is already a "lesser" valk.
So are we looking to create a better maud that's still not as good as a valk and give it to the Serco? Then create a better revenant that's still not as good as a prom and give it to the Itani? I just think that's starting to blend the ships together a little too much.
Since this thread seems to have died, here's the options we seem to have come up with:
1. Add a ship for the Itani and a ship for the Serco to balance the difference.
2. Decrease the turbo drain of the SVG and/or increase the turbo thrust.
3. Decrease the thrust of the valk while increasing the armor.
4. Increase the turbo thrust of the proms while decreasing their normal thrust slightly.
5. Give the prom a new turret. One that is much more effective than current player controlled turrets.
Did I miss anything?
The wraith/revenant is already a "lesser" prom.
The Cormaud is already a "lesser" valk.
So are we looking to create a better maud that's still not as good as a valk and give it to the Serco? Then create a better revenant that's still not as good as a prom and give it to the Itani? I just think that's starting to blend the ships together a little too much.
Since this thread seems to have died, here's the options we seem to have come up with:
1. Add a ship for the Itani and a ship for the Serco to balance the difference.
2. Decrease the turbo drain of the SVG and/or increase the turbo thrust.
3. Decrease the thrust of the valk while increasing the armor.
4. Increase the turbo thrust of the proms while decreasing their normal thrust slightly.
5. Give the prom a new turret. One that is much more effective than current player controlled turrets.
Did I miss anything?
I had suggested just nerfing the Valk a little, since it's already overpowered, so is the prom really.
I'd say chop down the valk's turbo thrust, up its drain to 60.
For the SVG, beef up its turbo thrust to be able to catch up with the valk, and put its drain at 60 too. It still isn't as nimble as the valk, even with the valks third weapon.
For the SCP, just cut it's armor down to 18000 like the mk 1 and 2, and reduce the turbo drain to 55. This would probably keep it from being so excessively uber in 1v1 without hurting its group combat much, especially with the upgraded svg to chase down fleeing valks.
I'd say chop down the valk's turbo thrust, up its drain to 60.
For the SVG, beef up its turbo thrust to be able to catch up with the valk, and put its drain at 60 too. It still isn't as nimble as the valk, even with the valks third weapon.
For the SCP, just cut it's armor down to 18000 like the mk 1 and 2, and reduce the turbo drain to 55. This would probably keep it from being so excessively uber in 1v1 without hurting its group combat much, especially with the upgraded svg to chase down fleeing valks.
Still, the two lightest fighters shouldn't have such a big difference. More ports = more weight.
Ghost:
-Increase valk's weight to be more realistic, its handling is too good for a ship with 3S ports and 11K armour.
Ghost:
-Increase valk's weight to be more realistic, its handling is too good for a ship with 3S ports and 11K armour.
You missed my suggestions, Ghost. :P
Valkyries fill an expected niche. We don't want to take away their soul. We just don't want them to monopolize their role.
I think the biggest thing is to give the Serco a speedy combat ship of their own. I vote to simply change the SVG's drain from 60/s to 55/s. Its turbo thrust (according to the wiki) is 260 N which isn't bad at all.
The next thing is to make Valkyries slightly more mortal. I vote to reduce the X-1 and Vengeance's armor from 11600 to 10500, reduce the IDF Vigilant from 11000 to 10000, and keep the mk1 and rune at 9500.
The last thing is to let the SCP and prom3 be able to react better to chaotic environments (and make them less dependent on AGT) by raising their spin torque from 11.5 Nm to 13.5 Nm.
Individually, these are quite modest changes but taken together I think they would have a meaningful impact.
Valkyries fill an expected niche. We don't want to take away their soul. We just don't want them to monopolize their role.
I think the biggest thing is to give the Serco a speedy combat ship of their own. I vote to simply change the SVG's drain from 60/s to 55/s. Its turbo thrust (according to the wiki) is 260 N which isn't bad at all.
The next thing is to make Valkyries slightly more mortal. I vote to reduce the X-1 and Vengeance's armor from 11600 to 10500, reduce the IDF Vigilant from 11000 to 10000, and keep the mk1 and rune at 9500.
The last thing is to let the SCP and prom3 be able to react better to chaotic environments (and make them less dependent on AGT) by raising their spin torque from 11.5 Nm to 13.5 Nm.
Individually, these are quite modest changes but taken together I think they would have a meaningful impact.
I think some better formation flying tools could help the serco/itani mismatch:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/23635#294416
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/23635#294416
I do not think the itani just have to have a new heavy weapons platform. I have already seen itani use taur3 as heavy weapons platforms. And as Ghost says, 'The wraith/revenant is already a "lesser" prom'. They are not as good as the prom, but do we really want the itani (or anyone else for that matter) to have anything as good as the prom?
I have to wonder if Ghost has any experience flying with a group of prom3. The prom3 is only marginally lighter than the SCP, but if you don't load it with heavy weapons, it performs well, and can almost be considered a large port variant of a valk.
All too often we assume the mk4 of a series is the best ship, but this is not always true for every role. The hog2 and hornet2 are infini, the vult3 has low drain, the IDF handles better than the X-1.
I have flown prom3 in megaposi and jackhammer configurations, and done well against valks.
I would like Ghost's opinion on how far the prom3 is now from being a viable group option for the Serco.
I have to wonder if Ghost has any experience flying with a group of prom3. The prom3 is only marginally lighter than the SCP, but if you don't load it with heavy weapons, it performs well, and can almost be considered a large port variant of a valk.
All too often we assume the mk4 of a series is the best ship, but this is not always true for every role. The hog2 and hornet2 are infini, the vult3 has low drain, the IDF handles better than the X-1.
I have flown prom3 in megaposi and jackhammer configurations, and done well against valks.
I would like Ghost's opinion on how far the prom3 is now from being a viable group option for the Serco.
**EDIT: For easy reference. I'm keeping a tally of votes against each idea on the original post on page 1. Votes will no longer be updated on this post.**
Roda makes a good point.
I used to fly the prom 3 quite a bit back when I was CtCing for the Serco (shhhh, don't tell anyone). It's a very strong ship, arguably the best, for that type of situation. I would CtC solo against 2-3 sometimes 4 enemies and still make off with the cargo. I used to load it up with 2 flares and a jackhammer, wait till the transport was destroyed, nuke the area around the cargo with flares, turbo in to grab the cargo and be gone with enough armor to cover my escape.
That being said, I still think it's lacking in a group combat situation where survival for an extended period of time is more important than nuking an area and getting out of the sector. It would still need a little love if this is going to be the fix we're looking for, but it's not a bad option by any means. Boosting the turbo thrust slightly might be a viable option at the risk of making it overpowered in other situations.
So, an updated list to reflect the suggestions I missed (sorry Mal and LNH =P):
x1. Add a ship for the Itani and a ship for the Serco to balance the difference.
x2. Decrease the turbo drain of the SVG and/or increase the turbo thrust.
xxxx3. Decrease the thrust of the valk while increasing the armor.
x4. Increase the turbo thrust of the proms while decreasing their normal thrust slightly.
5. Give the prom a new turret. One that is much more effective than current player controlled turrets.
x6. Lower turbo drain of SVG (possibly in conjunction with #2)
7. Drop armor of valks but leave thrust the same.
x8. Increase spin torque for SCP and Prom3
9. Reduce valks turbo thrust, increase drain.
x10. Drop armor of SCP and prom 3 but reduce turbo drain as well.
11. Increase weight of the valk.
12. Prom3 (or new variant) idea:
Drop it's armor from 16.5K to 14-15K
Drop it's cargo cap from 28 to 6-10.
Now, decrease it's weight from 9500 to 8-8.5K
Bump it's turbo speed to 220.
(Possibly) Give it a thinner facing profile (ie the X-1's shorter profile)
We've got a lot of good options here. Let's start trying to eliminate some.
**EDIT: For easy reference. I'm keeping a tally of votes against each idea on the original post on page 1. Votes will no longer be updated on this post.**
Roda makes a good point.
I used to fly the prom 3 quite a bit back when I was CtCing for the Serco (shhhh, don't tell anyone). It's a very strong ship, arguably the best, for that type of situation. I would CtC solo against 2-3 sometimes 4 enemies and still make off with the cargo. I used to load it up with 2 flares and a jackhammer, wait till the transport was destroyed, nuke the area around the cargo with flares, turbo in to grab the cargo and be gone with enough armor to cover my escape.
That being said, I still think it's lacking in a group combat situation where survival for an extended period of time is more important than nuking an area and getting out of the sector. It would still need a little love if this is going to be the fix we're looking for, but it's not a bad option by any means. Boosting the turbo thrust slightly might be a viable option at the risk of making it overpowered in other situations.
So, an updated list to reflect the suggestions I missed (sorry Mal and LNH =P):
x1. Add a ship for the Itani and a ship for the Serco to balance the difference.
x2. Decrease the turbo drain of the SVG and/or increase the turbo thrust.
xxxx3. Decrease the thrust of the valk while increasing the armor.
x4. Increase the turbo thrust of the proms while decreasing their normal thrust slightly.
5. Give the prom a new turret. One that is much more effective than current player controlled turrets.
x6. Lower turbo drain of SVG (possibly in conjunction with #2)
7. Drop armor of valks but leave thrust the same.
x8. Increase spin torque for SCP and Prom3
9. Reduce valks turbo thrust, increase drain.
x10. Drop armor of SCP and prom 3 but reduce turbo drain as well.
11. Increase weight of the valk.
12. Prom3 (or new variant) idea:
Drop it's armor from 16.5K to 14-15K
Drop it's cargo cap from 28 to 6-10.
Now, decrease it's weight from 9500 to 8-8.5K
Bump it's turbo speed to 220.
(Possibly) Give it a thinner facing profile (ie the X-1's shorter profile)
We've got a lot of good options here. Let's start trying to eliminate some.
**EDIT: For easy reference. I'm keeping a tally of votes against each idea on the original post on page 1. Votes will no longer be updated on this post.**
I'd strike #3 out. Valks don't need more armor.
I'm with tarenty there, I don;t do much group fighting these days, so from the 1v1 side of things, i'd say the prom and valk are still TOO uber in 1v1.
I concur. 3 out pls :)
I am not opposed to new ships, but new ships on par with valks/proms is only making the problem worse for the rest of the galaxy. The Itani already have access to close counters for the prom, and I don't want either side to have mirror ships of the other. #1 out please.
The SVG is already a galaxy class top fighter. It has a role. #2 and #6 out please.
increase this, decrease that, etc... I am opposed to a complete rebalance of ships until we have explored more conservative options. #3, #4, and #10 out please.
I believe both the valk and prom are over powered, and I favor minor nerfs over any kind of enhancement. That a group of proms can not compete with a group of valks is not necessarily the fault of the proms. #8 out please.
A new turret strikes me as complicated. But I'll leave it open.
Decrease valk armor, increase valk drain/wirght, etc... I can support minor nerfs that do not dramatically change the character of the ship, and allow it to remain a top class fighter, but bring it more into line with the rest of the galaxy.
With sufficient nerfs to the valk's tactical advantages, I could also support minor nerfs to prom's 1v1 edge.
This still leaves the question: Should the SCP even be able to compete on a group level with valks? If the prom3 is a viable option in group combat, then I am willing to force serco to choose between the mk3 and mk4, depending on role. Not every ship should fill every role, and the SCP is not missing a role. The prom3 however strikes me as under utilized. Is this the fault of the ship, or player mentality?
The solution may be a careful but conservative application of a combination of the suggestions made in this thread. For example, a minor nerf to the valk, some exploration of the potential of the prom3, and perhaps even a new Serco prom (Z-1 ?).
The SVG is already a galaxy class top fighter. It has a role. #2 and #6 out please.
increase this, decrease that, etc... I am opposed to a complete rebalance of ships until we have explored more conservative options. #3, #4, and #10 out please.
I believe both the valk and prom are over powered, and I favor minor nerfs over any kind of enhancement. That a group of proms can not compete with a group of valks is not necessarily the fault of the proms. #8 out please.
A new turret strikes me as complicated. But I'll leave it open.
Decrease valk armor, increase valk drain/wirght, etc... I can support minor nerfs that do not dramatically change the character of the ship, and allow it to remain a top class fighter, but bring it more into line with the rest of the galaxy.
With sufficient nerfs to the valk's tactical advantages, I could also support minor nerfs to prom's 1v1 edge.
This still leaves the question: Should the SCP even be able to compete on a group level with valks? If the prom3 is a viable option in group combat, then I am willing to force serco to choose between the mk3 and mk4, depending on role. Not every ship should fill every role, and the SCP is not missing a role. The prom3 however strikes me as under utilized. Is this the fault of the ship, or player mentality?
The solution may be a careful but conservative application of a combination of the suggestions made in this thread. For example, a minor nerf to the valk, some exploration of the potential of the prom3, and perhaps even a new Serco prom (Z-1 ?).
I don't think you understand. In a 5 v 5 fight, with 5 heavy fighters v 5 light fighters, and equal skill, the light fighters will win by far. They simply have to back off to 200m, and snipe from there.... proms and other heavy fighters have a huge cross section and slow response, making them easy targets at a long range. The same does not apply for valks, ofc.
What we need is a nerf to valks to make them more comparable to corvults, and make SVGs more like a heavy weapons platform.
What we need is a nerf to valks to make them more comparable to corvults, and make SVGs more like a heavy weapons platform.
put your nerf bats away newbs. option number 1 is by far the best.
nerfing the valks turbo is only going to piss people off because it is the only ship that makes playing solo not impossibly hard. You can chase down a behemoth or taur in it and still have enough energy left to kill it, and it also works as a fighter if some pesky vprs jump in sector you can turn and fight.
So give the serco an interceptor. it doesn't even have to be able to hold its own in 1v1 but that would be nice. off the top of my head in keeping with the serco tradition of heavy ships they could easily use a variant of the orion convoy guardian hornet. shave some weight off and up the thrust and turbo thrust to 300 and maybe take out 1 of the small ports so it only has 3.
nerfing the valks turbo is only going to piss people off because it is the only ship that makes playing solo not impossibly hard. You can chase down a behemoth or taur in it and still have enough energy left to kill it, and it also works as a fighter if some pesky vprs jump in sector you can turn and fight.
So give the serco an interceptor. it doesn't even have to be able to hold its own in 1v1 but that would be nice. off the top of my head in keeping with the serco tradition of heavy ships they could easily use a variant of the orion convoy guardian hornet. shave some weight off and up the thrust and turbo thrust to 300 and maybe take out 1 of the small ports so it only has 3.
Maybe increasing the prometheus mk3's spin torque would help it respond better in group combat situations.
any ship with 60 turbo drain should have insane acceleration. I vote the proms turbo drain gets reduced, leave the valk the same, but increase the turbo thrust of ships like the SVG and Corvult. ect. They need to be faster for how fast that battery gets sucked up.
Did I mention there's nothing wrong with the Valk?
Prom3 (or new variant) idea:
Drop it's armor from 16.5K to 14-15K
Drop it's cargo cap from 28 to 6-10.
Now, decrease it's weight from 9500 to 8-8.5K
Bump it's turbo speed to 220.
(Possibly) Give it a thinner facing profile (ie the X-1's shorter profile)
Done.
Prom3 (or new variant) idea:
Drop it's armor from 16.5K to 14-15K
Drop it's cargo cap from 28 to 6-10.
Now, decrease it's weight from 9500 to 8-8.5K
Bump it's turbo speed to 220.
(Possibly) Give it a thinner facing profile (ie the X-1's shorter profile)
Done.
Edited list to include Shedu's idea. Maybe a boost to turbo thrust in addition?
Also edited list to include an "x" for each vote that has been cast against an idea. Moved copy of list to original post as well.
Also edited list to include an "x" for each vote that has been cast against an idea. Moved copy of list to original post as well.