Forums » Suggestions
I think we've spoiled our player base. We really need to fix these escorts. Let's make escorts pay a wage with a formula that looks like this:
a = # of nation space wormholes the convoy goes through
b = # of ion storms the convoy goes through
c = # of grey space wormholes the convoy goes through
x = the amount of cargo (cu) the convoy starts out with
y = the amount of cargo (cu) the convoy docks with
(5,000a+10,000c+15,000b)*(3y/2x)
Look good?
Oh yes, and if possible the payment for kills/assists of attackers should be multiplied by the license (heavy, light, or combat) gained by killing them. This is much less urgent and does not have to be implemented.
For npcs: 1,000+25*license gained
For players: 10,000+75*combat license gained (cut in half every time it's the same player, this record is kept throughout different missions and reset every day)
Edit: This is the current idea: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/22585?page=3#280672
a = # of nation space wormholes the convoy goes through
b = # of ion storms the convoy goes through
c = # of grey space wormholes the convoy goes through
x = the amount of cargo (cu) the convoy starts out with
y = the amount of cargo (cu) the convoy docks with
(5,000a+10,000c+15,000b)*(3y/2x)
Look good?
Oh yes, and if possible the payment for kills/assists of attackers should be multiplied by the license (heavy, light, or combat) gained by killing them. This is much less urgent and does not have to be implemented.
For npcs: 1,000+25*license gained
For players: 10,000+75*combat license gained (cut in half every time it's the same player, this record is kept throughout different missions and reset every day)
Edit: This is the current idea: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/22585?page=3#280672
wait so if i go through 2 nation space whs 2 ion storms and 2 greyspace womholes and don't lose any ships (say 3 behemoths) i get
(5,000(2)+10,000(2)+15,000(2))*(3(120)/2(0))
10,000+20,000+30,000 = 60,000
3(360)/2(360) = 1080/720 = 1.5
60,000*1.5 = 90,000
hmm I guess that is fair seeing as it is a 4 wormhole trip with two storms you would probably lose at least one moth although maybe cut all the numbers in half again as 90,000 can buy almost any ship in the game.
(5,000(2)+10,000(2)+15,000(2))*(3(120)/2(0))
10,000+20,000+30,000 = 60,000
3(360)/2(360) = 1080/720 = 1.5
60,000*1.5 = 90,000
hmm I guess that is fair seeing as it is a 4 wormhole trip with two storms you would probably lose at least one moth although maybe cut all the numbers in half again as 90,000 can buy almost any ship in the game.
Well I made the values for nation whs, grey whs, and ion storms constant values so they can be adjusted easily for just that purpose. What do you suppose?
(2,500a+5,000c+7,500b)*(3y/2x)?
That would give you 45,000cr for that trip which seems a little low.
(4,000a+8,000c+12,000b)*(3y/2x) perhaps...
72,000cr seem more reasonable?
Something in between those two would seem about right as I agree there should be some financial risk in making money... although throwing your ship away to save all 3 moth heavies should definitely pay off that ship.
One thing I forgot in the formula was staying with the convoy, just assume that the wormholes and ion storms where you weren't with your convoy count as null in the formula. Or better yet just have the mission fail if you go 2 jumps away from your convoy.
(2,500a+5,000c+7,500b)*(3y/2x)?
That would give you 45,000cr for that trip which seems a little low.
(4,000a+8,000c+12,000b)*(3y/2x) perhaps...
72,000cr seem more reasonable?
Something in between those two would seem about right as I agree there should be some financial risk in making money... although throwing your ship away to save all 3 moth heavies should definitely pay off that ship.
One thing I forgot in the formula was staying with the convoy, just assume that the wormholes and ion storms where you weren't with your convoy count as null in the formula. Or better yet just have the mission fail if you go 2 jumps away from your convoy.
Interesting. I welcome more feedback on this.
Great idea, deserved its own post.
I don't like only the idea of paying for crossing unexpected ion storms. That is not the "business" way.
What about replace (or add) for surviving attacks? Each bot or pilot wave that attacks convoy and it survives multiplies bonus.
And must add another item: % of path with the convoy. To avoid that I create a group with a friend on Dened, and take a convoy from Dau to Edras and my friend gets paid.
Another abuse avoidance: % of path you are docked on capships pays "gunner salary", much lower!
Also, convoy size and base payment should be displayed.
--/--
Since the topic name is escort system reform, what about being able to join convoys as hauler/trader, when you have to pay for provided protection?
I don't like only the idea of paying for crossing unexpected ion storms. That is not the "business" way.
What about replace (or add) for surviving attacks? Each bot or pilot wave that attacks convoy and it survives multiplies bonus.
And must add another item: % of path with the convoy. To avoid that I create a group with a friend on Dened, and take a convoy from Dau to Edras and my friend gets paid.
Another abuse avoidance: % of path you are docked on capships pays "gunner salary", much lower!
Also, convoy size and base payment should be displayed.
--/--
Since the topic name is escort system reform, what about being able to join convoys as hauler/trader, when you have to pay for provided protection?
alloh DO. NOT. DERAIL. THIS. THREAD. We are trying to figure out a good formula first
Actually, running Pey's numbers on my calculator, I get...
(5000*2+10000*2+15000*2)*((3*360)/(2*360))=90,000cr
losing one moth, I get
(5000*2+10000*2+15000*2)*((3*240)/(2*360))=60,000cr
For 1 wh through Grey, no ion storms, no ships lost yields 22500cr
Through nation space 7500cr
Perceived implications:
1) Closer to the current economic scale.
2) Dramatic drop in player run voys as they cease to be used as income.
3) Adequate pay for defending voy is long overdue. HOWEVER, due to the length of time many pvp battles take, a change should be made to include kills made so long as ships were in the same sector as the fight at some point, whether or not the voy is still in the sector or not.
3a) More players turn semi-pirate or pirate and start killing voys for income.
4) The size still does matter for potential gain, only for the rate of potential loss from max reward.
5) Players can know up front roughly how much they will make for a voy (assuming no ion storms or kills)
This is one of the better ideas I've seen for reforming escort missions. I would certainly stop going out of my way to take these missions since 90,000cr for a 4 wh trip through 2 ion storms becomes an unprofitable use of my time.
(5000*2+10000*2+15000*2)*((3*360)/(2*360))=90,000cr
losing one moth, I get
(5000*2+10000*2+15000*2)*((3*240)/(2*360))=60,000cr
For 1 wh through Grey, no ion storms, no ships lost yields 22500cr
Through nation space 7500cr
Perceived implications:
1) Closer to the current economic scale.
2) Dramatic drop in player run voys as they cease to be used as income.
3) Adequate pay for defending voy is long overdue. HOWEVER, due to the length of time many pvp battles take, a change should be made to include kills made so long as ships were in the same sector as the fight at some point, whether or not the voy is still in the sector or not.
3a) More players turn semi-pirate or pirate and start killing voys for income.
4) The size still does matter for potential gain, only for the rate of potential loss from max reward.
5) Players can know up front roughly how much they will make for a voy (assuming no ion storms or kills)
This is one of the better ideas I've seen for reforming escort missions. I would certainly stop going out of my way to take these missions since 90,000cr for a 4 wh trip through 2 ion storms becomes an unprofitable use of my time.
Alloh, 1) the 'business' way has absolutely nothing to do with the Vendetta economy. It bears absolutely no resemblance, so get that out of your head.
2) This is not Space Invaders.
3) Yes, keeping a percentage based on the amount traveled with voy is a good idea. No idea what your talking about otherwise.
4) I'm not sold on the 'gunner' wage, but its a worthwhile idea. My opinion is that such adds unnecessary complication to the subject.
5) I'll agree. It should be fairly simple to calculate and display potential reward with a formula like this.
2) This is not Space Invaders.
3) Yes, keeping a percentage based on the amount traveled with voy is a good idea. No idea what your talking about otherwise.
4) I'm not sold on the 'gunner' wage, but its a worthwhile idea. My opinion is that such adds unnecessary complication to the subject.
5) I'll agree. It should be fairly simple to calculate and display potential reward with a formula like this.
One final thought that would potentially make escorts a great group activity.
1) make the reward per group member. Do not divide it between as the current model does.
2) similar to Border Patrol, include a group multiplier so that the more people taking the mission, the greater the reward is linearly. So that if 8 players take that 4 wh mission through 2 ion storms and don't lose any ships, then they each earn 720,000cr. Maybe even double it.
3) increase the cost value of the cargo by the number of group members greater than 1 (which should remain random).
It is my opinion that creating incentives for players to work together vastly out ways the high reward. In doing this, you give players reasons to work together. 1) to produce a high payday for the defenders and 2) to produce a high payday for attackers. This would go a long way towards making VO more fun. It doesn't matter that many of these voys would meet little resistance. The ones that do meet significant opposition would make up for it for all participants.
As it stands, 99% of the time Vendetta may as well call itself Lone Rangers In Space. The remainder of the time, we get lucky and someone starts a furball.
1) make the reward per group member. Do not divide it between as the current model does.
2) similar to Border Patrol, include a group multiplier so that the more people taking the mission, the greater the reward is linearly. So that if 8 players take that 4 wh mission through 2 ion storms and don't lose any ships, then they each earn 720,000cr. Maybe even double it.
3) increase the cost value of the cargo by the number of group members greater than 1 (which should remain random).
It is my opinion that creating incentives for players to work together vastly out ways the high reward. In doing this, you give players reasons to work together. 1) to produce a high payday for the defenders and 2) to produce a high payday for attackers. This would go a long way towards making VO more fun. It doesn't matter that many of these voys would meet little resistance. The ones that do meet significant opposition would make up for it for all participants.
As it stands, 99% of the time Vendetta may as well call itself Lone Rangers In Space. The remainder of the time, we get lucky and someone starts a furball.
We already have a system in place for reducing rewards if the pilot abandons the convoy. Keep that in place.
RE 'gunner wage': This is a good idea. If a player is with the convoy for 100% of the jumps, flying in his own ship, he gets 100% of the money. If he is with the convoy for 100%, but riding in a capship, he gets, say, 10% of the money. This can be easily adjusted per jump using the same mechanic that is used to reduce rewards when a player does not stick with the convoy the whole route.
I also think the penalties should be steeper than linear for loosing ships. The denominator of the last term in the equation could be raised to the 1.5 power or even squared, modifying the other constants to keep the payout roughly the same when the entire convoy survives. This encourages players to actively defend their convoy, rather than signing off a ship or two as "cost of business" and continuing on their merry way as generally occurs now.
There should also be a couple-point faction reduction for each ship lost on the way, but that's not as important as fixing the money issue.
I agree with fluffer that incentives for group activity are a good thing, but escort missions are not the way to go about it. If multiple people sign up for an escort mission they should each get the full reward, but no more.
Also, why did you post three times in a row?
RE 'gunner wage': This is a good idea. If a player is with the convoy for 100% of the jumps, flying in his own ship, he gets 100% of the money. If he is with the convoy for 100%, but riding in a capship, he gets, say, 10% of the money. This can be easily adjusted per jump using the same mechanic that is used to reduce rewards when a player does not stick with the convoy the whole route.
I also think the penalties should be steeper than linear for loosing ships. The denominator of the last term in the equation could be raised to the 1.5 power or even squared, modifying the other constants to keep the payout roughly the same when the entire convoy survives. This encourages players to actively defend their convoy, rather than signing off a ship or two as "cost of business" and continuing on their merry way as generally occurs now.
There should also be a couple-point faction reduction for each ship lost on the way, but that's not as important as fixing the money issue.
I agree with fluffer that incentives for group activity are a good thing, but escort missions are not the way to go about it. If multiple people sign up for an escort mission they should each get the full reward, but no more.
Also, why did you post three times in a row?
I like to hear myself talk.
Another abuse avoidance: % of path you are docked on capships pays "gunner salary", much lower!
Actually, this is the best idea Alloh has ever had.
Actually, this is the best idea Alloh has ever had.
This is great. It will also increase the value of the cargoes and sizes of the convoys because fewer players will be doing them once this change is implemented, which means there will still be potentially large rewards for large convoys as demand increases, there will just be fewer massive payouts.
I do see one downside, that being that new players will have to work a lot harder and longer to make money that older players exploited out of the current system. It will drastically increase the money-monopoly older players already enjoy.
I do see one downside, that being that new players will have to work a lot harder and longer to make money that older players exploited out of the current system. It will drastically increase the money-monopoly older players already enjoy.
Eh, whatever. Until there's something on which to spend it, that doesn't matter.
There is an obvious and fair solution to that, Imp, but TGFT will absolutely pitch a fit.
I agree with both points, but we all know that will never happen.
I have some major issues with Shank's proposed formula.
1) y/x factors out of the equation. Note that y/x is simply the percentage of cargo that survived, so the size of the voy doesn't matter. I'm guessing that something more along the lines of y^2/x was intended. Otherwise an escort of two Atlases pays the same as 12 Moths over the same route (assuming no ships are lost in either case). As is, it would favor taking smaller escorts as there would be less risk of losing any ships.
2) Pay is basically linear with the length of the route. This means you'd be better off doing 3 runs of 1 wh each than a single 3 wh run since there is greater risk of losing ships with the longer route.
Instead of: (5,000a+10,000c+15,000b)...
I'd propose something more along the lines of:
( 1,000*[n*(n-1)+2] + 15,000b )...
where n = a + 1.5c
This comes out to:
1 wh nation space: (2,000 + 15,000b)...
1 wh grey: (2,750 + 15,000b)...
2 wh nation space: (4,000 + 15,000b)...
2 wh grey: (8,000 + 15,000b)...
4 wh nation space: (14,000 + 15,000b)...
4 wh grey: (32,000 + 15,000b)...
3) The pay is not dependent on the cargo type at all. This means you get paid the same for a voy carrying carbonic ore as one carrying holodisks. So players will likely escort the voy with the carbonic ore and boom the one with the holodisks then sell them for a million credits or so.
4)For players: 10,000+75*combat license gained...
The one issue I have here is it would have to address whether the player is actually a threat to the voy. It doesn't seem right to get paid to take out a noob in a bus just because they happen to be in the same sector as the voy. Perhaps the player in question must shoot the voy first for it to count? (Is credit awarded for player kills in the current escort missions?)
----
I'll have to play with the formula and constants to see if I can come up with something better to address items 1 and 3 later.
Another abuse avoidance: % of path you are docked on capships pays "gunner salary", much lower!
I don't fully agree with this one. Under the current escort missions, I'll dock with the capship until I hit a storm and then launch to protect the voy from bots. I'd modify it to only have a penalty if you stay docked in a sector where the convoy is under attack perhaps. (of course you'd want to rule out stupid stuff like voy ships colliding with roids or other ships in the voy)
1) y/x factors out of the equation. Note that y/x is simply the percentage of cargo that survived, so the size of the voy doesn't matter. I'm guessing that something more along the lines of y^2/x was intended. Otherwise an escort of two Atlases pays the same as 12 Moths over the same route (assuming no ships are lost in either case). As is, it would favor taking smaller escorts as there would be less risk of losing any ships.
2) Pay is basically linear with the length of the route. This means you'd be better off doing 3 runs of 1 wh each than a single 3 wh run since there is greater risk of losing ships with the longer route.
Instead of: (5,000a+10,000c+15,000b)...
I'd propose something more along the lines of:
( 1,000*[n*(n-1)+2] + 15,000b )...
where n = a + 1.5c
This comes out to:
1 wh nation space: (2,000 + 15,000b)...
1 wh grey: (2,750 + 15,000b)...
2 wh nation space: (4,000 + 15,000b)...
2 wh grey: (8,000 + 15,000b)...
4 wh nation space: (14,000 + 15,000b)...
4 wh grey: (32,000 + 15,000b)...
3) The pay is not dependent on the cargo type at all. This means you get paid the same for a voy carrying carbonic ore as one carrying holodisks. So players will likely escort the voy with the carbonic ore and boom the one with the holodisks then sell them for a million credits or so.
4)For players: 10,000+75*combat license gained...
The one issue I have here is it would have to address whether the player is actually a threat to the voy. It doesn't seem right to get paid to take out a noob in a bus just because they happen to be in the same sector as the voy. Perhaps the player in question must shoot the voy first for it to count? (Is credit awarded for player kills in the current escort missions?)
----
I'll have to play with the formula and constants to see if I can come up with something better to address items 1 and 3 later.
Another abuse avoidance: % of path you are docked on capships pays "gunner salary", much lower!
I don't fully agree with this one. Under the current escort missions, I'll dock with the capship until I hit a storm and then launch to protect the voy from bots. I'd modify it to only have a penalty if you stay docked in a sector where the convoy is under attack perhaps. (of course you'd want to rule out stupid stuff like voy ships colliding with roids or other ships in the voy)
The problem is not the generous Voy credit source. It is the lack of interesting, lucrative combat jobs. When there are exciting ways to earn credits, then it may be reasonable to change the voy payout. Doing it now will reduce pvp and furballs, making the game much less fun.
Interesting idea with #2...
Addressing #1, that is not necessarily true. The more cargo a convoy carries, the more heavily defended it is (especially in regard to capital ships) so that really balances out in the end. Escorts should definitely not be paid any more if they have a capital ship in their convoy, if anything they should be paid less (the only reason I didn't add a term that would do that is because I know that capital ships tend to slow down the speed of a convoy). And, I assure you as a pirate myself, it is much easier to defend 12 moth heavies than 2 atlases lol. Those things are no XCs, mate.
Addressing #3, well there is a problem there... although I don't see how that would ever be fixed without having the system break like how it is now. Normally I would say something along the lines of "well that's why they don't tell escorts what cargo they carry" (which was one of the reasons why I thought it was always ridiculous that they would pay you based on the "profit" of the convoy) but I forgot that we have cargo scanners now. Perhaps we can cap the price of cargo that a convoy can carry at 1,500cr/cu, add some kind of faction hit for someone attacking a convoy that they previously started with a mission, and (PLEASE!) have all convoy capital ships carry cargo that costs more than 1,500cr/cu.
Addressing #4, I thought that it already paid for killing players... and I thought it already did register whether npcs/players attacked the convoy or not. I could be mistaken.
About your problem with a gunnery salary: that sounds like something you can easily adjust to. Ever notice that most ships labeled "escort variants" are fairly fast ships? However you should, theoretically, be able to keep up in even a laden Ragnarok.
Edit: In response to missioncreek2... I don't know where to start with that post... first off if anything there's a surplus, the credit situation should be fine. Generations of games have proven, however, that it is a lot more fun to worry about finances. If you're still worried about it... there are cheaper ships, you know.
Secondly, escorts are combat missions... or at least they should be. My original idea was that it should pay a lot less but defending the convoy (kills) should pay a lot more.
Thirdly, Hive Skirmishes pay perfectly fine if you play them smartly. And so will bounties.
Addressing #1, that is not necessarily true. The more cargo a convoy carries, the more heavily defended it is (especially in regard to capital ships) so that really balances out in the end. Escorts should definitely not be paid any more if they have a capital ship in their convoy, if anything they should be paid less (the only reason I didn't add a term that would do that is because I know that capital ships tend to slow down the speed of a convoy). And, I assure you as a pirate myself, it is much easier to defend 12 moth heavies than 2 atlases lol. Those things are no XCs, mate.
Addressing #3, well there is a problem there... although I don't see how that would ever be fixed without having the system break like how it is now. Normally I would say something along the lines of "well that's why they don't tell escorts what cargo they carry" (which was one of the reasons why I thought it was always ridiculous that they would pay you based on the "profit" of the convoy) but I forgot that we have cargo scanners now. Perhaps we can cap the price of cargo that a convoy can carry at 1,500cr/cu, add some kind of faction hit for someone attacking a convoy that they previously started with a mission, and (PLEASE!) have all convoy capital ships carry cargo that costs more than 1,500cr/cu.
Addressing #4, I thought that it already paid for killing players... and I thought it already did register whether npcs/players attacked the convoy or not. I could be mistaken.
About your problem with a gunnery salary: that sounds like something you can easily adjust to. Ever notice that most ships labeled "escort variants" are fairly fast ships? However you should, theoretically, be able to keep up in even a laden Ragnarok.
Edit: In response to missioncreek2... I don't know where to start with that post... first off if anything there's a surplus, the credit situation should be fine. Generations of games have proven, however, that it is a lot more fun to worry about finances. If you're still worried about it... there are cheaper ships, you know.
Secondly, escorts are combat missions... or at least they should be. My original idea was that it should pay a lot less but defending the convoy (kills) should pay a lot more.
Thirdly, Hive Skirmishes pay perfectly fine if you play them smartly. And so will bounties.
Evolving ideas:
*GROUPS: Anything that foster cooperation among players is welcome. Since 2 players can defend better than one (on same "class"), the reward should really be bigger for groups of defenders.
+TRAITORS: Should receive severe faction standing, and maybe even some credits penalty, like charging for killed ships. Since you cannot kill ALL ships in convoy at same time, if one player is seen attacking his own convoy, the others would immediatly "radio" back to base. Quite simple, forgive 1 or 2 shots per ship. Traitors are not welcome as convoy defenders in future also! And you really should NEVER shoot towards your convoy...
This balances out the convoy content temptation. Shot your own convoy? No more convoys for you for a week!
*SPY: When a convoy leaves, create a temporary mission 'Stop That Convoy' on opposing side OR on corvus. Example? Convoy departs from Valent. All Axia stations offers "Stop Valent convoy from X to Y stations". Rewards for kills, no penalty. Mission vanishes when enemy convoy arrive at destination. (Exception: Never attack convoys heading to your faction). Groups of attackers also deserve better pay.
+IDs: Label/number convoys, for reference. Real war convoys are identified. More interesting with SPY orders
*GROUPS: Anything that foster cooperation among players is welcome. Since 2 players can defend better than one (on same "class"), the reward should really be bigger for groups of defenders.
+TRAITORS: Should receive severe faction standing, and maybe even some credits penalty, like charging for killed ships. Since you cannot kill ALL ships in convoy at same time, if one player is seen attacking his own convoy, the others would immediatly "radio" back to base. Quite simple, forgive 1 or 2 shots per ship. Traitors are not welcome as convoy defenders in future also! And you really should NEVER shoot towards your convoy...
This balances out the convoy content temptation. Shot your own convoy? No more convoys for you for a week!
*SPY: When a convoy leaves, create a temporary mission 'Stop That Convoy' on opposing side OR on corvus. Example? Convoy departs from Valent. All Axia stations offers "Stop Valent convoy from X to Y stations". Rewards for kills, no penalty. Mission vanishes when enemy convoy arrive at destination. (Exception: Never attack convoys heading to your faction). Groups of attackers also deserve better pay.
+IDs: Label/number convoys, for reference. Real war convoys are identified. More interesting with SPY orders