To be fair a good pilot in an all energy fighter can take a GT T3. If you want the construct of pirate vs trader for RP then a mid range trader should have a reasonable chance of defending itself. The megaposi is a great pve wep, but having tried it many times in pvp I really can't hit lights with it.

As the game stands traders are not going to take any mid range or heavy trade ship to grey unless they have a reasonable chance of defending it. Pirates have become pk collectors so traders will only turn up in fighters for a bit of pvp fun if the mid range ships become sitting targets. A bus can take a XC , why should a trader fly one into grey knowing that it will just be destroyed?

I have said this many times , though I doubt anyone listens. The reason that the T3/ GT works is because of the location of the ports. It handles better than a GT / flare SCP. Look back, see how much damage the flare /screamer delivers in a real fight.

My argument is simple. If you just want grey to be a griefer/player pvp zone with everyone flying x1s ditch the GT . If you want the RP of trader/pirate zone allow trade ships to defend themselves.

One final comment. For which I will be flamed, though I will say it anyway. VO is enjoyed by people from the ages of 13 to 80. It is a twitch based game, and as one ages one twitches more slowly. It is easy to say " oh just learn to aim " but in reality a lot of the mature player base will only join in PVP if they see a reasonable chance of survival by balancing a slower ship with a decent AA wep against a fast ship with fast energy weps.

Simply , do you want a fight or just a cheap pk ?

ecka have you not read any of shapes posts the reason the other large port energy weapons just sit in the hangar is because the ships are to freakin heavy because if they where lighter the AGT would be even more unbalance.

Just look at the set ups in game take a vulture or hell even an x1 some people fly vulture with all energy some do energy flare some do neutrons or positrons or ravens. same with an x1 some people do flares some all energy some a mixture. but when it comes to heavy ships its AGT across the board whether the ship has 2 large ports or one large port. This whole concept of pve weapon and pvp weapon is also moot you can kill bots with anything they are mindless the only balancing factor is killing players.

oh also ecka please don't derail this thread into a greyspace pirates griefers thing you traders could try working in groups or something just waltzing into grey in a unarmed trade ship or with out an escort is always a bad idea, and finally incase you have forgotten mines while not as effective can still give you a well enough chance at escape if your pursuer does not know you have them.

Is there really an 80 year old playing? I wish to meet him/her!

Personally I'm not advocating any sort of nerfing of a trade ship's ability to defend themselves. But the current situation isn't one of a defensive problem. Your setup especially Ecka, is a very offensive layout. Empty trade ships sitting around in grey space, equipped with rockets and gattling turrets, are there to partake in offensive pvp.

Mines and the like are defensive weapons. Manned turrets are defensive weapons. A trade ships defensive strength should be focused on enabling that trade ship to escape it's pursuers, cargo intact. Not it's ability to turn around and confront them toe-to-toe.

I completely disagree that the status quo does anything for RP/immersion. I agree that it will turn pvp arenas into less diverse populations (in regards to ship models), but I think that's a good thing.

I am certain of players aged 60 and more. My question is, how far can you cater to a group that is (arguably) a minority, without angering the generally younger crowd enjoying twitch-based combat?

Please note that I am in no way advocating to just disregard players with reduced reflexes. But I agree with Snax insofar as the AGT (or GT)-and-flare loadout is detracting from interesting fights, cf. Shape's thread on the subject.

"As the game stands traders are not going to take any mid range or heavy trade ship to grey unless they have a reasonable chance of defending it."

Here Ecka, let me fix that for you....

"As the game stands Ecka and TGFT traders are not going to take any mid range or heavy trade ship to grey unless they have a reasonable chance of defending it."

I fly my XC and Mining moth through grey all the time. Now I know I once killed Mecha Taurius by ramming my ship into his but, do you suppose all the pirates know of this legendary fight and flee in terror when they see my XC?

At any rate, leave the AGT as is and make a turret version. Leave the Prom as is and make a new Serco/Itani ship.

"As the game stands Ecka and TGFT traders are not going to take any mid range or heavy trade ship to grey unless they have a reasonable chance of defending it."

Here ryan let me fix that for you...

"As the game stands Ecka and TGFT escort-exploiters are not going to take any heavy assault ships into grey unless they have a weapon which allows them to easily win fights without having to resort to actual skill"

Can't exactly justify calling an empty taur 3 with gat and rockets a trade ship ;)

Funny. I always wished Ecka only had the Gatling Turret when I've fought him. GT has never been a threat to me- at least not till I switched to the duel stick, which I'm still getting accustomed too. Its the damned sunnie/screamer combo that I fears. GT is easy to beat. If you don't believe me, run a voy through b8 on a dead night and watch how many ships you lose to the pirates.

I don't get it... Off course pirates don't lose trade ships to pirates!

You losers who pick on Ecka can fight him when he is in a light instead. Such as in Nation War. He is not an easy kill. So have a nice cuppa and come with arguments pro and con of the AGT instead.

I still say leave the AGT as it is AND make it turreted as well. Bring it on, lets see how bad the lag would be before we rule it out. The game will not become a better game by removing weapon choices...

Oh, and nice idea with gunships Imp.

I was digging thru the stats on the gats and got a bit confused by how they compare.

Auto tracking weapons by their nature are generally smaller and lighter caliber then fixed weapons is the first issue. A gatt cannon should have a longer range and do more damage then an agt.

I was also looking at Inc's issues with the fireing rates for the gatts.

May I suggest a more realistic solution.

Cannon:
Damage: 800
Velocity: 220
Energy: 25
Delay: .12
Mass: 1500 Kg

Grid: 6

AGT:
Damage:400
Velocity: 180
Energy: 20
Delay: .12
Mass:2000 Kg
Grid:10

I don't think I have a clue about what's going on in this thread but I thought I would stop by and mention that I've always thought that AGT was a particularly worthless weapon. At least, it never worked any magic for me. Peace.

Why don't pirates lose ships to pirates when doing the trading necessary for some things? I somehow doubt that. They probably jut don't mention it here or in-game.

There are several reasons that pirates don't lose ships to pirates.

We Greys are a pretty tight-knit bunch. We're rough around the edges and we bicker at times but generally we have each others' backs. It's both dishonorable and unprofessional to attack another pirate, and so we as a general rule just don't.

Furthermore pirates are almost by definition remarkably effective at moving loot around, often under averse conditions. I couldn't begin to tell you how many strike forces and pirate-hunters I've killed while flying a moth full of cargo.

bump for justice

Down with turret! Up with cannon!

Hmm, stuff regurgitates. Pointlessly. Look, think about this from a game perspective. The older players in vo are never going to be as fast as the younger ones in pvp. So, a bit of balance . Taur 3's and the like with gt do balance things out a bit. I will be killed , but not pwned. At least it is a bit of fun all round. At 40 k a 'taur who cares .

I have said this may times, but I suppose no-one listens. Timezones. By the time you are all being clever and killing me it is midnight. I trade and mine in grey with impunity until late evening. At about 10pm I have a choice : I fly a taur and have a few fights to give folk a bit of fun, or I ( and the rest of the rich european traders) vanish into nation space and let you squabble amongst yourselves. If you really want I can throw an infinate amount of scps or x1s into combat . I have a respect for RP, so I don't.

VO is very divided atm. I see both sides of the arguement, I accept the pirates want more targets , but that will only happen if traders have some chance of defending themselves. If the chance falls to near zero , traders will just not go to grey. Any experienced trader only gets pirated when it suits them.

Ok , I know this started as a " lets nerf the gt " thread. I have read many along similar lines. A simple arguement: consider how a change will affect the game as a whole, not just how it would affect your main alt.

uh ecka no one is making it easier for traders to avoid pirates. I can't really understand the arguement you are making about the taur being "nerfed" its a trade ship no one complains that a behemoth can't stand up in combat. likewise no one complains that a scp isn't a good trade ship. If we are going to talk about it nerfing things it should be large port combat ships like the scp which actually probably wouldn't be much of a burden to it seeing how that thing can still move decently.

also please stop proving our arguements "at 40k a taur who cares" exactly why should a 40k ship put out more firepower then the scp

now lets look at how it will effect the game as a whole. for one it would probably make it a lot more difficult for people in Gattling turret hogs to turbo into you and score a bunch of hits in a furball while not really aiming at you. Two it will allow for more variety of heavy ships since we wont constantly be balancing every large port ship with "someone will put a gattling turret on this" in mind and thirdly it will add a very powerfull weapon to the real turret selection list something that is missing. the gauss are a nice touch but they don't lay down the sheer number of "rounds" as the agt does which keeps people dodging and missing.

To address a point made by Peytros long ago in this thread.
"you traders could try working in groups"

I believe I am taking this quote in context when I argue that the current economy of VO does not encourage group effort amongst traders. Certainly not in the same way it works for pirates. If a pirate group takes out a good voy, the group can make over a million credits to split between them. Granted many voys carry crap, but on average, a group of pirates stalking an active wh can bring down quite a nice sum. Add to that they get to enjoy the activity of killing stuff.

On the trade side of things, an average moth load brings in roughly 70,000cr and an XC a bit over 100,000cr on good runs. This reward does not go very far when 2 or more players are involved.

The only feasible routes that might encourage group efforts are the enhanced routes, which imo are long, tedious and boring. Esp, when I can make the same amount in the same time frame as well as keep my mind on what I'm doing without the boredom because I am thinking about my next trade. Not much thought in 'fly 3000m and jump. check for Peybuddy. fly to wh and jump. check for ticklemunster." rinse and repeat indefinitely.

In the past I have done the enhanced routes. Grouping up with a VPR or using my guild mates as scouts. It can be fun to a point. Perhaps the problem is with myself. Travel in VO bores me to tears. Regardless, there may be a reason why traders tend to be solitary creatures.

If the chance falls to near zero , traders will just not go to grey.

This point raises one very simple question: are you retarded, or disingenuous?

Traders have something very important in their quiver: a near 0% chance of encountering a pirate on any given run. Their best "defense" is -- and quite properly so -- to be happy they don't exist in a hostile-rich universe.

That being said, you've also neglected the other great defense traders have: smaller, faster, better armed ships. No trader should ever have some chance of defending themselves when they're flying a Goddamn BEHEMOTH. If you want the credits per minute afforded by 100+ cus of cargo space, the trade off is your ability to run/fight back. Simple as that. A maud, Tung taur, or even plain old Taur III/Atlas X are all very safe ways of moving cargo in Grey: you can run in em, and you can fight in em.

What the truth is, and what is implicit in what you say, is this:

Traders are too fucking lazy to take any sort of trade-off in their 'safety vs. profit per unit time' calculation. Which is simply a bullshit, whine-fest, immature attitude to have.

Ah, some confirmation of my point: the enhanced routes, which imo are long, tedious and boring

there may be a reason why traders tend to be solitary creatures

There is.

You smell.

I think you are missing Ecka's point Lecter. I could be wrong, but I believe his argument was a series of reasons why the gt should not be altered as this thread recommends. In effect you've enhanced his point about the taur 3 as a trade ship with defensive combat capacity. Its certainly a poor choice against an unwilling opponent.

Edit: You wag.

I don't take his point as relating to AGT, but yes, pey's idea is retarded.