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It's a sad sight to see someone in a Rev C with dual ravens pawn a tank with all that firepower. I agree that some people use the AGT as a crutch rather than learning to aim. If they want to do that, I'm fine with it. It's just another pk for me. I'm cynical, I don't think people are concerned with L Port weapons vs. armor in a prom or the fighting abilities of those that don't want to improve their PvP skills. I think some people are complaining because they don't want to have the patience/learn how to dodge AGT arcs.
I like the newb Prom(dual Sunnies/AGT). It's a great set up for Deneb battles and NW, don't screw with something that's not broken.
The idea of a turret version of the AGT is interesting but just make it that, a turret version.
-Folks Dokaris
I like the newb Prom(dual Sunnies/AGT). It's a great set up for Deneb battles and NW, don't screw with something that's not broken.
The idea of a turret version of the AGT is interesting but just make it that, a turret version.
-Folks Dokaris
I'm only going to say this once, Incarnate, because the fact that you're even entertaining this idea as including the prom shows how little you know about group combat dynamics in your own goddamn game, particularly the relative weaknesses and strengths of the capstone Serco and Itani ships.
If you take the AGT off the prom, you'd damn well better make it so that no valk can equip any flares.
If you take the AGT off the prom, you'd damn well better make it so that no valk can equip any flares.
I agree the AGT is a crutch for many people, however I also recognize that without it a lot of people would never fight at all because frankly most pilots aren't capable of getting better.
Weaken the L-Port AGT and add a turret based version and everything is covered. Alternately, give the Gatling Cannon a little bit of a damage boost and the prom jocks and hog spammers can use the cannon on their ships. It won't hurt them to have to like, steer once in a while.
Weaken the L-Port AGT and add a turret based version and everything is covered. Alternately, give the Gatling Cannon a little bit of a damage boost and the prom jocks and hog spammers can use the cannon on their ships. It won't hurt them to have to like, steer once in a while.
It won't hurt them to have to like, steer once in a while.
The next time I hear a Dev whine about the damage a proposed add-on would do to game balance, I'm rolling this thread into a tube and swatting them in the nose with it.
The next time I hear a Dev whine about the damage a proposed add-on would do to game balance, I'm rolling this thread into a tube and swatting them in the nose with it.
quiet frankly i think you guys are all over looking the other large port add ons like mega posi and the plasma annihilator or even jacks and screamers which still do a considerable amount of damage.
folks dokaris statments just prove something that is wrong with this game that bigger = better. who cares if a duel raven rev c kills an agt flare prom the rev c is supposed to be able to dodge shit like crazy. hell the name of the game is twitch combat not "bring the most firepower that covers the greatest area of effect" combat
folks dokaris statments just prove something that is wrong with this game that bigger = better. who cares if a duel raven rev c kills an agt flare prom the rev c is supposed to be able to dodge shit like crazy. hell the name of the game is twitch combat not "bring the most firepower that covers the greatest area of effect" combat
Peytros, I'm hurt... I always thought you liked my sunnie/screamer Ragnarocs! hmm... I'd like to see a double capacity flare launcher for large ports.
Lecter, I "entertain" practically everything, because I figured (optimistically, perhaps) that someone might come up with a cool happy-medium solution that I hadn't thought of. Some balance of grid power or other existing limitations that would give the Prom its needed weapon, while also having the desired turret migration elsewhere. If I just say "NO!" it cuts off all possible discussion, which is usually counterproductive, and reduces the chances of a good idea coming to light. I'm well aware that the AGT is an important part of the standard Prom loadout, and I'm not excited about nerfing that.. as I said. The whole point of this sort of thread is discussion, not bitter ranting.
Every time you seem to read a post from me, you read into it the worst possible outcomes, most of which appear to come from your own head ("they'll never do this, this will never happen, I hate everything"), and most of which are distinctly incorrect. Maybe you should dial down your goddamn assumptions.
Every time you seem to read a post from me, you read into it the worst possible outcomes, most of which appear to come from your own head ("they'll never do this, this will never happen, I hate everything"), and most of which are distinctly incorrect. Maybe you should dial down your goddamn assumptions.
There are some suggestions that have pros and cons and are worth discussing. One may be not excited about the ill-effects of those suggestions but see that the pros could outweigh them.
Then there are changes with such whopping ill-effects that it's beyond reasonable to "entertain" the change. Period. This is, in my opinion, one of the latter sort. There's nothing to discuss: getting rid of the AGT would nerf the prom so disgustingly that the Valk would truly dominate it.
You've nerfed the shit out of the prom how many times over the past 4+ years? And each time, the claim was "well, it has to be balanced even when carrying that so-effective-it's-cheap load out, Suns/AGT. And now we're discussing cutting the AGT out of the picture?
Again, my opinion is that there isn't anything to discuss. Too much harm to balance if this, due to the limits of what you guys can do when it comes to limiting what can be equipped into what, cannot be given a prom exception.
Then there are changes with such whopping ill-effects that it's beyond reasonable to "entertain" the change. Period. This is, in my opinion, one of the latter sort. There's nothing to discuss: getting rid of the AGT would nerf the prom so disgustingly that the Valk would truly dominate it.
You've nerfed the shit out of the prom how many times over the past 4+ years? And each time, the claim was "well, it has to be balanced even when carrying that so-effective-it's-cheap load out, Suns/AGT. And now we're discussing cutting the AGT out of the picture?
Again, my opinion is that there isn't anything to discuss. Too much harm to balance if this, due to the limits of what you guys can do when it comes to limiting what can be equipped into what, cannot be given a prom exception.
lecter seeing as you are rarely in game i would urge the devs to not listen to anything that you have to say regarding this. claiming that the agt is the end all be all of large port weapons especially for the prom is rediculous. if it is so crippling to take it off the prom then imagen what would happen to the centaur.
if this does turn out to be such a hugely crippling blow to the prom it can be un-nerfed but the completely deny giving a two player ship a distinct advantage becuase one ship, the prom MIGHT be worse with out it is laughable.
if this does turn out to be such a hugely crippling blow to the prom it can be un-nerfed but the completely deny giving a two player ship a distinct advantage becuase one ship, the prom MIGHT be worse with out it is laughable.
Peypey, even you aren't stupid enough to not get the difference in unbalancing the combat capabilities of the prom as opposed to the 'taur. Which means you're simply being disingenuous--something I'm shocked you have enough brain activity to do. Kudos!
ok lecter can you please explain to my feeble mind how taking the agt away from a ship that has the most armor in the game has the most thrust of any heavy combat ship has a narrower front profile then all mid and heavy ships is so hugely unblancing?
Removing the AGT as an L port weapon is a bad idea.
Adding an excellent auto-aim gun to the turret loadout is a good idea.
Adding a version of the prom with a turret is a good idea.
Adding an excellent auto-aim gun to the turret loadout is a good idea.
Adding a version of the prom with a turret is a good idea.
lemme reiterate what I said before, so it's clear:
The AGT has forced every ship with a large port to be balanced to its possible usage, making the other (Very nice) L-port weapons into sideshows, except for the Megaposi, which has applications on the hog, and is great for chasing.
I can only assume that people who say they "love when someone tries a prom with AGT+flares" have never seen the AGT properly used. Because, in my experience, when someone DOES know how to use it correctly, it's the deadliest bloody combo in the game.
The reason you often don't see people, who KNOW how to use it, fly it, is because it's a boring, boring setup.
I agree with Lecter, the prom as it stands cannot have the AGT simply taken away, nor can the hog, the taur, or even the rag. This is because all of these ships have undergone successive balancing to prevent a jittery-frikkin AGT-mount. So yes, it requires balancing, but it needs to happen if we want to see the gatling cannons/screamers/Plasma Annihilators burst onto the scene.
on the GC: I agree with tumble, up its speed and damage... could be a very nice replacement, while forcing heavy ships to leave openings.
(People don't seem to realize that THIS is what makes the AGT strong, it's not just that it aims for you, but that you don't have to change your position to aim. Hence a good AGT user will never open themselves up, and will dodge the energy indefinitely)
The AGT has forced every ship with a large port to be balanced to its possible usage, making the other (Very nice) L-port weapons into sideshows, except for the Megaposi, which has applications on the hog, and is great for chasing.
I can only assume that people who say they "love when someone tries a prom with AGT+flares" have never seen the AGT properly used. Because, in my experience, when someone DOES know how to use it correctly, it's the deadliest bloody combo in the game.
The reason you often don't see people, who KNOW how to use it, fly it, is because it's a boring, boring setup.
I agree with Lecter, the prom as it stands cannot have the AGT simply taken away, nor can the hog, the taur, or even the rag. This is because all of these ships have undergone successive balancing to prevent a jittery-frikkin AGT-mount. So yes, it requires balancing, but it needs to happen if we want to see the gatling cannons/screamers/Plasma Annihilators burst onto the scene.
on the GC: I agree with tumble, up its speed and damage... could be a very nice replacement, while forcing heavy ships to leave openings.
(People don't seem to realize that THIS is what makes the AGT strong, it's not just that it aims for you, but that you don't have to change your position to aim. Hence a good AGT user will never open themselves up, and will dodge the energy indefinitely)
As Impavid said:
I agree the AGT is a crutch for many people, however I also recognize that without it a lot of people would never fight at all because frankly most pilots aren't capable of getting better.
Yes, the AGT is very deadly., yes it has super aim, so what? If you feel it is too easy, don't use it. If you don't like fighting someone who uses it, don't fight that person. Some of the heavy weapons in the game are there for other purposes than PvP, maybe that is why we seldom see fighters with annihilators?
Keep the AGT, make a turret version of it as well though. That would at least be interesting if someone could actually hit you while ratting them. And let them have the option for three AGTs on the moth, the voys seem to be able to without significant lag.. Besides, the four kills from one three-AGT firing moth is a sweet target!
Look, a pony!
I agree the AGT is a crutch for many people, however I also recognize that without it a lot of people would never fight at all because frankly most pilots aren't capable of getting better.
Yes, the AGT is very deadly., yes it has super aim, so what? If you feel it is too easy, don't use it. If you don't like fighting someone who uses it, don't fight that person. Some of the heavy weapons in the game are there for other purposes than PvP, maybe that is why we seldom see fighters with annihilators?
Keep the AGT, make a turret version of it as well though. That would at least be interesting if someone could actually hit you while ratting them. And let them have the option for three AGTs on the moth, the voys seem to be able to without significant lag.. Besides, the four kills from one three-AGT firing moth is a sweet target!
Look, a pony!
Azumi: "Yes, the AGT is very deadly., yes it has super aim, so what? If you feel it is too easy, don't use it. If you don't like fighting someone who uses it, don't fight that person. Some of the heavy weapons in the game are there for other purposes than PvP, maybe that is why we seldom see fighters with annihilators?":
I'll answer this as if you're trying to be constructive, and not deliberately ignorant.
1)The AGT becomes a balance point of the whole PvP system, which affects me even if I don't play with it
2) PvP is non-consensual in this game, I don't get to avoid people using setups I don't like.
3) There is barely a weapon that CANNOT be used for botting, Annihilators are not somehow designed for botting. PvP is the arena where weapons need to be precisely calibrated, and hence, that is the focus of these balance arguments. Botting does not require precisely calibrated weapons, hence I don't care about it.
Annihilators are a GREAT weapon, but no one in their right mind would equip an annihilator when they have an AGT there.
4) Inc has already stated that the AGT is a source of lag... lets not equip 200 NPC's with 3 of them... please?
I'll answer this as if you're trying to be constructive, and not deliberately ignorant.
1)The AGT becomes a balance point of the whole PvP system, which affects me even if I don't play with it
2) PvP is non-consensual in this game, I don't get to avoid people using setups I don't like.
3) There is barely a weapon that CANNOT be used for botting, Annihilators are not somehow designed for botting. PvP is the arena where weapons need to be precisely calibrated, and hence, that is the focus of these balance arguments. Botting does not require precisely calibrated weapons, hence I don't care about it.
Annihilators are a GREAT weapon, but no one in their right mind would equip an annihilator when they have an AGT there.
4) Inc has already stated that the AGT is a source of lag... lets not equip 200 NPC's with 3 of them... please?
Shapenaji: Several people were flying hogs with flare/anni loadouts on the last large furball I was in. It was at least somewhat effective.
it's good, but a hog with AGT+flares is still better
@Shape:
Correction. You do get to choose whether or no you fight another player. I pick my fights, and it usually works that I can run. Of course, I have not played much lately; running (provided you're in a flight-friendly setup, but if you're looking for fisticuffs, aren't you in a fast ship anyway?) should still be no problem regardless.
Also, why the condescendence?
That said, I'm in favour of abolishing the AGT as a standard L-port weapon, or severely limiting its use.
Correction. You do get to choose whether or no you fight another player. I pick my fights, and it usually works that I can run. Of course, I have not played much lately; running (provided you're in a flight-friendly setup, but if you're looking for fisticuffs, aren't you in a fast ship anyway?) should still be no problem regardless.
Also, why the condescendence?
That said, I'm in favour of abolishing the AGT as a standard L-port weapon, or severely limiting its use.
There was a time before the SCP was nerfed to be a balanced ship with Sunnies/AGT where it was actually quite a deadly ship with other layouts. I can remember certain people being terribly effective with all guass layouts (two guass cannons and a plasma cannon). The Sunnies/AGT layout was of course terribly efficient for even the most incapable of pilots.
There's another angle to this nobody has brought up (or I've missed): If the agt was turned into a turret weapon, why not just un-nerf the SCP? That way, the SCP with a Sunnies/AGT layout would be something that essentially would need to be tag teamed to take down, which would be fine considering there was two PK's available if successful. Then the other single pilot versions could go back to being useful with other loadouts.
As to the issue surrounding the nerfing of other combat ships, do the same. Except for the Taur, which is a trade ship, and it's effectiveness in combat is just plain wrong.
There's another angle to this nobody has brought up (or I've missed): If the agt was turned into a turret weapon, why not just un-nerf the SCP? That way, the SCP with a Sunnies/AGT layout would be something that essentially would need to be tag teamed to take down, which would be fine considering there was two PK's available if successful. Then the other single pilot versions could go back to being useful with other loadouts.
As to the issue surrounding the nerfing of other combat ships, do the same. Except for the Taur, which is a trade ship, and it's effectiveness in combat is just plain wrong.
I just don't see what the big problem is Shape. I admit that some sort of balance should be achieved but fail to see that the AGT is so unbalancing. I'll always charge merry and glad into the teeth of someone who is AGT equipped, cause I know that person probably can't aim for his life. Both of us have great fun, one of us die.
But:
1: How so? Just becasue someone else uses it? It is really not that hard to dodge...
2: No PvP combat in VO is non-consensual. You can always outrun someone that carries an AGT. And running can be a good strategy. The only time you have non-consensual PvP is when someone in a trade ship is being jumped by a pirat. And if they then carry AGTs, the pirate will have to learn to fight that weapon or stop ratting
3: Maybe a bad choice from my side. I just mentioned Annihilators since I haven't seen them in PvP yet. Insert own favourite botting weapon then.
4: What weapons do the NPC voy moths fire? That should be available for turrets on PC tradeships then. I am not advocating AGT on NPC ships, but why not on PC ships? In nation war we often have 6+ (just pulling a figure here) AGTs firing without significant lag.
There should be a difference between NPC and PC. Just like no escort vult fly with AAP's or Ravens
But:
1: How so? Just becasue someone else uses it? It is really not that hard to dodge...
2: No PvP combat in VO is non-consensual. You can always outrun someone that carries an AGT. And running can be a good strategy. The only time you have non-consensual PvP is when someone in a trade ship is being jumped by a pirat. And if they then carry AGTs, the pirate will have to learn to fight that weapon or stop ratting
3: Maybe a bad choice from my side. I just mentioned Annihilators since I haven't seen them in PvP yet. Insert own favourite botting weapon then.
4: What weapons do the NPC voy moths fire? That should be available for turrets on PC tradeships then. I am not advocating AGT on NPC ships, but why not on PC ships? In nation war we often have 6+ (just pulling a figure here) AGTs firing without significant lag.
There should be a difference between NPC and PC. Just like no escort vult fly with AAP's or Ravens