Forums » Suggestions
haha! I think you might be aspiring to Dr. Lecter's job as prime troll. Oh wait, or is that genka's job?
The problem with this game is not the amount of people that can and will shoot you. It is the utter and complete lack of anything else meaningfull to do. No criticism intended Inc and crew, I know you are working on it. But we are in a transition phase that has lasted for more than two years and will last for a while more I expect. That is the problem with the player base eroding away.
Now, back on topic. More content, less restrictions is the way forward. Not punishing people because they are obnoxious. Who decides who are within game parameters and who is outside? The devs have no time for crap like that, they should be hammering k-boards with code to make more content (and they are). So it would be up to the community to decide who is okay? I don't think s, look at the mute campaigns against peypey, roda and others. More content, less restrictions, kay?
Give content a chance. I shall now withdraw from this "discussion".
/me makes sure the door does not hit her on the way out;)
The problem with this game is not the amount of people that can and will shoot you. It is the utter and complete lack of anything else meaningfull to do. No criticism intended Inc and crew, I know you are working on it. But we are in a transition phase that has lasted for more than two years and will last for a while more I expect. That is the problem with the player base eroding away.
Now, back on topic. More content, less restrictions is the way forward. Not punishing people because they are obnoxious. Who decides who are within game parameters and who is outside? The devs have no time for crap like that, they should be hammering k-boards with code to make more content (and they are). So it would be up to the community to decide who is okay? I don't think s, look at the mute campaigns against peypey, roda and others. More content, less restrictions, kay?
Give content a chance. I shall now withdraw from this "discussion".
/me makes sure the door does not hit her on the way out;)
Yea sorry but I'm a self centered asshole who doesn't care about you (or your ideas for that matter even if they are good), deal with it.
[Edit]meh, some shit pisses me off. people unable to let go of an idea because they think its true pisses me off...
On that though *fuck the first law of thermodynamics*
sorry about the off topicness whistler :/
[Edit]meh, some shit pisses me off. people unable to let go of an idea because they think its true pisses me off...
On that though *fuck the first law of thermodynamics*
sorry about the off topicness whistler :/
I was doing my best to hope spidey was being sarcastic....
Wow this thread has a lot of activity since yesterday.
Keep going, Utisz! But, keep in mind that there's a lot of people who have played this game for 5 years and they obviously "know better than you do what the game needs and how dare you come in here with your suggestions..."
/s
Oh, and Whistler: I'm glad I don't have your job. Really.
p.s. /s means "End Sarcasm." For those not in-the-know.
Keep going, Utisz! But, keep in mind that there's a lot of people who have played this game for 5 years and they obviously "know better than you do what the game needs and how dare you come in here with your suggestions..."
/s
Oh, and Whistler: I'm glad I don't have your job. Really.
p.s. /s means "End Sarcasm." For those not in-the-know.
I just read the whole thread, and Utisz, you're all over the place. It feels like you're trying to argue 5 different things and failing at every single one of them, and then insulting people who try to point it out.
Leebs: Luckily it's entirely a volunteer job. I probably wouldn't keep it if I was being paid.
This thing could almost be on topic if all parties were actually engaged in a discussion. Mostly we have barbs and defensiveness.
We all want the game to do well, without wrecking the aspects that we enjoy now.
We all agree that there are problems, including player retention.
We don't all agree on the main problem behind low player retention, or the accompanying main solution.
The devs are already deep into their plan and are unlikely to change horses midstream, so there really isn't much urgency here. I guess we could discuss the next step.
This thing could almost be on topic if all parties were actually engaged in a discussion. Mostly we have barbs and defensiveness.
We all want the game to do well, without wrecking the aspects that we enjoy now.
We all agree that there are problems, including player retention.
We don't all agree on the main problem behind low player retention, or the accompanying main solution.
The devs are already deep into their plan and are unlikely to change horses midstream, so there really isn't much urgency here. I guess we could discuss the next step.
weeehaw!
Utisz, I have tried to understand your main complaint (and done my best to respond to it... little of which you responded back to), but now I am completely and utterly confused.
What, precisely, is(/are) the problem(s) you are trying to address?
1) If the problem is one of a lack of real pirates... the solution is in the works (as has been explained), so why you are making a fuss I do not understand.
2) If the problem is a lack of "real" danger, then the solution for this problem is as well in the works. Again, I do not understand why you are making a fuss. Moreover, the idea that we need NPC's to subsidize danger I do not understand... there will always be lulls in pirate activity... but w/e, the solution to this is in the works, and I think it's pretty cool, so moving on.
3) If the problem is people's personalities, the solution is ALREADY IN GAME in the form of /ignore. People who leave the game because they don't like the griefers either A) need to learn about /ignore and /leave, or B) probably don't belong in this game. A quick explanation of "B": if you /ignore or mute these annoyances, then they are just (as someone earlier in the thread has stated) like NPC drones who will kill (or at least engage) you on sight. You have specifically stated that you WANT grey to be dangerous, so what is wrong with having people you can't hear (like an NPC) kill you? If you can't take the danger (or moreover the fact that you know that NPC-like annoyance is really a person who is gloating)... then you probably don't belong here. This game is not a care-bear game (see the title: Vendetta Online)... I don't know what else I can say on this point.
Those are the problems I believe you have listed, and I do not understand why you are making a fuss about any of these problems, as the solutions to them are either on their way or exist already. Please explain to me what I have misunderstood.
And one more thing: when it comes to the suggestions forum, we ARE listening, and not flat-out rejecting (at least most of us). Please, PLEASE don't preach to us about what suggestions are about... we know. We are trying to understand what you are suggesting and why (which, sadly, is vital information you were not successful at providing us in your first post) so that we can adequately respond and explain why or why not we agree with your problems (or rather whether or not they are indeed problems) and proposed solutions.
What, precisely, is(/are) the problem(s) you are trying to address?
1) If the problem is one of a lack of real pirates... the solution is in the works (as has been explained), so why you are making a fuss I do not understand.
2) If the problem is a lack of "real" danger, then the solution for this problem is as well in the works. Again, I do not understand why you are making a fuss. Moreover, the idea that we need NPC's to subsidize danger I do not understand... there will always be lulls in pirate activity... but w/e, the solution to this is in the works, and I think it's pretty cool, so moving on.
3) If the problem is people's personalities, the solution is ALREADY IN GAME in the form of /ignore. People who leave the game because they don't like the griefers either A) need to learn about /ignore and /leave, or B) probably don't belong in this game. A quick explanation of "B": if you /ignore or mute these annoyances, then they are just (as someone earlier in the thread has stated) like NPC drones who will kill (or at least engage) you on sight. You have specifically stated that you WANT grey to be dangerous, so what is wrong with having people you can't hear (like an NPC) kill you? If you can't take the danger (or moreover the fact that you know that NPC-like annoyance is really a person who is gloating)... then you probably don't belong here. This game is not a care-bear game (see the title: Vendetta Online)... I don't know what else I can say on this point.
Those are the problems I believe you have listed, and I do not understand why you are making a fuss about any of these problems, as the solutions to them are either on their way or exist already. Please explain to me what I have misunderstood.
And one more thing: when it comes to the suggestions forum, we ARE listening, and not flat-out rejecting (at least most of us). Please, PLEASE don't preach to us about what suggestions are about... we know. We are trying to understand what you are suggesting and why (which, sadly, is vital information you were not successful at providing us in your first post) so that we can adequately respond and explain why or why not we agree with your problems (or rather whether or not they are indeed problems) and proposed solutions.
ahahahha atice sounds like a nicer version of me "ITS VENDETTA ONLINE NOT CARE-BEAR ONLINE" lawls
slime73
I just read the whole thread, and Utisz, you're all over the place. It feels like you're trying to argue 5 different things and failing at every single one of them, and then insulting people who try to point it out."
If I am "all over the place" it is because a lot of people's comments are "all over the place" and I am responding.
As for “insulting people” I notice you have nothing to say those whose only form of “discussion” is to attack people.
The whole point of a “suggestion forum” is to make suggestions and kick around ideas. A lot of those who are getting abusive or shrill are totally unwilling to let anyone have an opinion that does not mesh with theirs.
I just read the whole thread, and Utisz, you're all over the place. It feels like you're trying to argue 5 different things and failing at every single one of them, and then insulting people who try to point it out."
If I am "all over the place" it is because a lot of people's comments are "all over the place" and I am responding.
As for “insulting people” I notice you have nothing to say those whose only form of “discussion” is to attack people.
The whole point of a “suggestion forum” is to make suggestions and kick around ideas. A lot of those who are getting abusive or shrill are totally unwilling to let anyone have an opinion that does not mesh with theirs.
I'm not going to comment on that last post, because I think most people who read it already think what I'd say.
On another note (I think I posted this in another thread but it fits in here more..), what makes you so sure VO has a low player retention rate because of griefers? Don't you think other problems, such as lack of content (and, ironically, lack of players) contribute to the problem more? Do you have concrete statistics that prove you right? Your statements on this issue so far have just been opinion and baseless claims.
I know griefers do unfortunately cause a few people to leave the game, however from what I've seen it's generally not a particularly significant amount.
On another note (I think I posted this in another thread but it fits in here more..), what makes you so sure VO has a low player retention rate because of griefers? Don't you think other problems, such as lack of content (and, ironically, lack of players) contribute to the problem more? Do you have concrete statistics that prove you right? Your statements on this issue so far have just been opinion and baseless claims.
I know griefers do unfortunately cause a few people to leave the game, however from what I've seen it's generally not a particularly significant amount.
Utisz... could you respond to my latest post? I think it would greatly clear up some confusion on this thread.
Aticephyr,
Nobody is "making a fuss." I am trying to spark constructive, not negative, conversations but apparently some people feel threatened by that.
The original idea, which seems to have gotten lost in the trolling, is that we need more players---here is one idea to help get and keep them.
The idea had two elements. One--address the complaints I hear from so many newbies and quite a few more experienced players regarding the griefers. I had hoped to get a conversation going as to how to do that but many of the griefers who are killing the game have sought to kill the thread as well.
The second element was a suggestion for a new type of content for the game---a military one. NOT large scale battles but spy and courier missions, storm patrols, military cargo runs, bombing raids and whatever anyone else could come up with. I had hoped to generate ideas to make use of some of the less popular ships by tailoring the missions around their unique characteristics.
As for your point about ignore, you apparently do not get it. What makes you think I even bother to turn on my com channels most of the time? I don’t simply ignore the griefers, I ignore everyone, which probably explains how I can have been around for so long without most people apparently being aware of it.
Most of the conversations on 100 are boring beyond belief. But that is really not a problem if one simply does not bother to listen. I repeat, for the umpteenth time, this is not about me, it is about the people who tell me they are leaving and why.
I do a pretty fair amount of helping new players and talking to friends on other channels and have an idea as to what is driving paying customers away. It is really not a good business model to tell paying customers that they “probably don’t belong here.” They may believe you and leave, taking their money with them.
Not me though. I enjoy playing the game my way and the griefers are not even a mild irritant to me. However, seeing good players leave when we might have kept them, and watching a company with a great idea struggle to keep afloat in a bad economy, is a concern.
Nobody is "making a fuss." I am trying to spark constructive, not negative, conversations but apparently some people feel threatened by that.
The original idea, which seems to have gotten lost in the trolling, is that we need more players---here is one idea to help get and keep them.
The idea had two elements. One--address the complaints I hear from so many newbies and quite a few more experienced players regarding the griefers. I had hoped to get a conversation going as to how to do that but many of the griefers who are killing the game have sought to kill the thread as well.
The second element was a suggestion for a new type of content for the game---a military one. NOT large scale battles but spy and courier missions, storm patrols, military cargo runs, bombing raids and whatever anyone else could come up with. I had hoped to generate ideas to make use of some of the less popular ships by tailoring the missions around their unique characteristics.
As for your point about ignore, you apparently do not get it. What makes you think I even bother to turn on my com channels most of the time? I don’t simply ignore the griefers, I ignore everyone, which probably explains how I can have been around for so long without most people apparently being aware of it.
Most of the conversations on 100 are boring beyond belief. But that is really not a problem if one simply does not bother to listen. I repeat, for the umpteenth time, this is not about me, it is about the people who tell me they are leaving and why.
I do a pretty fair amount of helping new players and talking to friends on other channels and have an idea as to what is driving paying customers away. It is really not a good business model to tell paying customers that they “probably don’t belong here.” They may believe you and leave, taking their money with them.
Not me though. I enjoy playing the game my way and the griefers are not even a mild irritant to me. However, seeing good players leave when we might have kept them, and watching a company with a great idea struggle to keep afloat in a bad economy, is a concern.
slime73
"On another note (I think I posted this in another thread but it fits in here more..), what makes you so sure VO has a low player retention rate because of griefers?"
Because I do a fair amount of helping new players and listen to their reasons for not staying. I also talk to more experienced players who complain to me of things that bother them and their reasons for leaving.
It is as simple as that.
"On another note (I think I posted this in another thread but it fits in here more..), what makes you so sure VO has a low player retention rate because of griefers?"
Because I do a fair amount of helping new players and listen to their reasons for not staying. I also talk to more experienced players who complain to me of things that bother them and their reasons for leaving.
It is as simple as that.
I don't quite understand how you manage to stay out of 100 and snag experienced players who quit VO at the same time. What's your ingame name? I've probably seen you before.
I hear a lot of complains from trolls leaving the game that new players are too carebearish and only want to mine and trade and get all pissy when you kill them in greyspace and call them newbs over 100 after totally wtf pwning them.
therefore i think all types of carebears gameplay should be removed so we are only left with cool people who like to pvp and wtf pwn with out hearing about whiney miners and traders who stupid toxic personalities ruining 100
also lets make a new no hugs rule on 100 everytime someone says hugs on 100 i will say FUCK THAT IM KICKING YOU IN THE SHINS. I am tired of seeing decent paying trolls being run out of the game by whiney bears. I have also spoken to numerous trolls and grieffers as to why they have left and they said it is the toxic whiney attitudes and posts on the suggestions forum for people who obviously suck at pvp and hate getting beat ruining there fun.
I am also sick of people thinking a came called vendetta is happy happy carebear land wtf happened to "vendetta - get good get even"?
therefore i think all types of carebears gameplay should be removed so we are only left with cool people who like to pvp and wtf pwn with out hearing about whiney miners and traders who stupid toxic personalities ruining 100
also lets make a new no hugs rule on 100 everytime someone says hugs on 100 i will say FUCK THAT IM KICKING YOU IN THE SHINS. I am tired of seeing decent paying trolls being run out of the game by whiney bears. I have also spoken to numerous trolls and grieffers as to why they have left and they said it is the toxic whiney attitudes and posts on the suggestions forum for people who obviously suck at pvp and hate getting beat ruining there fun.
I am also sick of people thinking a came called vendetta is happy happy carebear land wtf happened to "vendetta - get good get even"?
Okay then. My apologies for accusing you of "making a fuss'. Moving on now...
I agree we need more players. I think the newbie areas have done a good job to start keeping more players. As the economy starts to become wholesome and a driving force in the game, there will be more depth to the game and people will stay because there is much, much more to do (not to mention more player interaction).
What I'm missing is how, precisely, are the griefers killing the game? I understand how they can cause annoyance, but I don't get how (given the current newb areas etc) they can kill the game for newbies. If they're killing the game for advanced players, I would assume (feel free to correct me) that this is because currently there isn't much content... and they are annoyed by how the griefers upset the current content (read PvP). That latter problem will be solved as the game gets more complex. I'm missing how griefers (who it should be noted will be less prominent as grey becomes more interesting) are such a huge problem ("killing the game"), and ask you to explain it to me. I personally made it my mission to kill the griefers... so in fact having griefers around gave me something to do... but that is beside the point.
When you explain, please do not say that "many newbies have said they are killing the game", but rather tell me specifically some things they are doing which cause them to kill the game. It will greatly help me to understand your observation if you could give me specifics.
As for the new content for the game... I believe such things are in the works, including military like missions (as the subfactions will be at war, and will have plenty of missions that reflect this). Also, CtC is already in the game, which seems like one of the things you were suggesting (though I'll admit the devs say they will replace CtC with something "better", but I can assume that CtC's replacement will be what you are looking for).
EDIT:
@Peytros: I'm pretty sure you're not helping here. As fun as it is to provoke a reaction... I'm trying to understand what Utisz is getting at. Try not to distract him. Your points are noted, and there are even many here who would agree with some of them. Let's try to figure out what Utisz is thinking before we attack though.
I agree we need more players. I think the newbie areas have done a good job to start keeping more players. As the economy starts to become wholesome and a driving force in the game, there will be more depth to the game and people will stay because there is much, much more to do (not to mention more player interaction).
What I'm missing is how, precisely, are the griefers killing the game? I understand how they can cause annoyance, but I don't get how (given the current newb areas etc) they can kill the game for newbies. If they're killing the game for advanced players, I would assume (feel free to correct me) that this is because currently there isn't much content... and they are annoyed by how the griefers upset the current content (read PvP). That latter problem will be solved as the game gets more complex. I'm missing how griefers (who it should be noted will be less prominent as grey becomes more interesting) are such a huge problem ("killing the game"), and ask you to explain it to me. I personally made it my mission to kill the griefers... so in fact having griefers around gave me something to do... but that is beside the point.
When you explain, please do not say that "many newbies have said they are killing the game", but rather tell me specifically some things they are doing which cause them to kill the game. It will greatly help me to understand your observation if you could give me specifics.
As for the new content for the game... I believe such things are in the works, including military like missions (as the subfactions will be at war, and will have plenty of missions that reflect this). Also, CtC is already in the game, which seems like one of the things you were suggesting (though I'll admit the devs say they will replace CtC with something "better", but I can assume that CtC's replacement will be what you are looking for).
EDIT:
@Peytros: I'm pretty sure you're not helping here. As fun as it is to provoke a reaction... I'm trying to understand what Utisz is getting at. Try not to distract him. Your points are noted, and there are even many here who would agree with some of them. Let's try to figure out what Utisz is thinking before we attack though.
slime73
I don't quite understand how you manage to stay out of 100 and snag experienced players who quit VO at the same time. What's your ingame name? I've probably seen you before."
Easy. Channel 100 is not the only channel out there and one often meets, and helps, strangers along the way.
Beyond a doubt you have seen me before and will again.
I don't quite understand how you manage to stay out of 100 and snag experienced players who quit VO at the same time. What's your ingame name? I've probably seen you before."
Easy. Channel 100 is not the only channel out there and one often meets, and helps, strangers along the way.
Beyond a doubt you have seen me before and will again.
Aticephyr
I agree that every new feature that the devs have given us is a step in the right direction. That is why one likes to try to help by suggesting new ideas. Not all the ideas that are suggested are going to work, or be popular. But the idea is to keep “throwing stuff against the wall until some of it sticks.” Even a bad idea is good if it helps clarify why things should be going in the direction that they are.
You say military missions are coming. Great, any reason why the players should not make suggestions as to what they think might be fun? For myself I would love to see missions that make use of some of our “orphan” ships, the ones that seldom get used.
Raptors are, of course, one of the most popular “unpopular” ships that I know of. Lots of people have made suggestions as to how to make this ship more useful. Most have centered around changing its performance. Great ideas. But more work for our over worked devs. How about missions designed around their strong points?
Spitball idea just to show the direction I am suggesting---a newly discovered worm hole (OR military graveyard with lost weapons OR mineral rich roids OR etc, etc, etc) which is in perpetual storm but must be guarded (salvaged, mined, or whatever) in the face of rival faction opposition? Other ships with radars may be used as well but maybe the Raptor will get some play as well.
Second spitball idea. Courier missions deep into Gray carrying vital dispatches. The courier will, of course, use a top of the line fighter and will be a problem for one pilot to intercept and therefore require a team effort.
The main use of the Rag is taking out Queens so how about a “bomber raid” where a “squadron” of Rags have to take out a swarm of military grade Queens (turrets, pillboxes, storage depots etc.) in the face of rival fighter screens?
And one final one, which I will try to repost as another suggestion thread, a “bus zone” where military “bus wars” are the only type possible. New players could get in to the thick of the fight early in their VO careers and not worry about going broke. Such a skirmish zone would also see to it that the EC-107 moves from relative obscurity (I have one but do not see many others around) to a “front line fighter.”
Now to the comments. The number one (I heard it again just yesterday) is “I don’t mind being attacked for my cargo but to be boomed just because some rat was bored is not realistic, or fun." I try to tell them to just think of the rat as a mindless AI bot but that does not always work.
Second in order of frequency is the refusal of the griefers (but not the real pirates of which there are still a few) to “play the game” meaning hail, attempt to extort ransom or even to accept surrender when offered. Again these are their complaints NOT mine.
There are others but they all fall into this sort of category. But you don’t have to take my word for it, one just has to notice that, given the chance, even many experienced players prefer to avoid playing in some areas. The problem is not with those who do not want to go there, the problem is with those who make others not want to go there. I am POS in Corvus, Ineubus and Tunguska---I go there a lot, but I understand those who do not.
I have owned my own business for a long time and it has taught me to listen to my customer’s complaints and suggestions. That skill remains in place when I game and alerts me to one aspect of the problem that is afflicting the game we love. This is my attempt to help fix the problem.
I agree that every new feature that the devs have given us is a step in the right direction. That is why one likes to try to help by suggesting new ideas. Not all the ideas that are suggested are going to work, or be popular. But the idea is to keep “throwing stuff against the wall until some of it sticks.” Even a bad idea is good if it helps clarify why things should be going in the direction that they are.
You say military missions are coming. Great, any reason why the players should not make suggestions as to what they think might be fun? For myself I would love to see missions that make use of some of our “orphan” ships, the ones that seldom get used.
Raptors are, of course, one of the most popular “unpopular” ships that I know of. Lots of people have made suggestions as to how to make this ship more useful. Most have centered around changing its performance. Great ideas. But more work for our over worked devs. How about missions designed around their strong points?
Spitball idea just to show the direction I am suggesting---a newly discovered worm hole (OR military graveyard with lost weapons OR mineral rich roids OR etc, etc, etc) which is in perpetual storm but must be guarded (salvaged, mined, or whatever) in the face of rival faction opposition? Other ships with radars may be used as well but maybe the Raptor will get some play as well.
Second spitball idea. Courier missions deep into Gray carrying vital dispatches. The courier will, of course, use a top of the line fighter and will be a problem for one pilot to intercept and therefore require a team effort.
The main use of the Rag is taking out Queens so how about a “bomber raid” where a “squadron” of Rags have to take out a swarm of military grade Queens (turrets, pillboxes, storage depots etc.) in the face of rival fighter screens?
And one final one, which I will try to repost as another suggestion thread, a “bus zone” where military “bus wars” are the only type possible. New players could get in to the thick of the fight early in their VO careers and not worry about going broke. Such a skirmish zone would also see to it that the EC-107 moves from relative obscurity (I have one but do not see many others around) to a “front line fighter.”
Now to the comments. The number one (I heard it again just yesterday) is “I don’t mind being attacked for my cargo but to be boomed just because some rat was bored is not realistic, or fun." I try to tell them to just think of the rat as a mindless AI bot but that does not always work.
Second in order of frequency is the refusal of the griefers (but not the real pirates of which there are still a few) to “play the game” meaning hail, attempt to extort ransom or even to accept surrender when offered. Again these are their complaints NOT mine.
There are others but they all fall into this sort of category. But you don’t have to take my word for it, one just has to notice that, given the chance, even many experienced players prefer to avoid playing in some areas. The problem is not with those who do not want to go there, the problem is with those who make others not want to go there. I am POS in Corvus, Ineubus and Tunguska---I go there a lot, but I understand those who do not.
I have owned my own business for a long time and it has taught me to listen to my customer’s complaints and suggestions. That skill remains in place when I game and alerts me to one aspect of the problem that is afflicting the game we love. This is my attempt to help fix the problem.
Alright, now we're getting somewhere.
With regards to your suggestions, its best to frame them so that others know that is what you are doing. I thought you were trying to suggest something novel, not a twist on something already going into the game.
When it comes to griefers, I agree the way they play causes some "unrealistic" problems. The best solution to this, though, is for the gameplay to get more intricate and for piracy in grey to become profitable again (see earlier posts for explanations). I don't think there is much other way to limit their numbers... other than "carebaring" vo which no one will approve of.
And regarding your content-suggestions, at this point it would be best to make a new thread I think. Make sure to frame what you are doing with what you know will be implemented, and it may be best to not touch the griefer issue in the new thread.
With regards to your suggestions, its best to frame them so that others know that is what you are doing. I thought you were trying to suggest something novel, not a twist on something already going into the game.
When it comes to griefers, I agree the way they play causes some "unrealistic" problems. The best solution to this, though, is for the gameplay to get more intricate and for piracy in grey to become profitable again (see earlier posts for explanations). I don't think there is much other way to limit their numbers... other than "carebaring" vo which no one will approve of.
And regarding your content-suggestions, at this point it would be best to make a new thread I think. Make sure to frame what you are doing with what you know will be implemented, and it may be best to not touch the griefer issue in the new thread.