I am still trying to come up with ways for the pk crowd to have their battles, ambushes and raids etc. while, at the same time, allowing players who do not want to associate with these folks to go about their business unmolested.

So how about confining all the pvp encounters to members of the various militaries and guilds who are involved in the war or wars? That way an “enemy vessel” spotted in any space would be “fair game” but attacks on civilians, in any space, would have severe repercussions.

This would allow for civilian members of one faction to gain popularity with other factions, even those their faction was fighting, but forbid such actions to members of the rival militaries. Thus a military ship would be met at the border with deadly force but a civilian one could (depending on earned faction) could simply fly on by.

This would also open up a whole series of possible missions.

For example, courier duty is currently pretty weak tea (and rightly so for what it is designed to be) but MILITARY courier duty should be a whole different ball of wax. Military couriers would use their fast, nimble fighters to carry small, high value, cargos through very dangerous space while groups of rival military pilots try to stop them.

One loan wolf would not have a really great chance of catching such a courier but teams would.

Other military missions would be built around the various, often under appreciated, ships VO has to offer and their unique properties. Raptors (or other radar equipped ships) would patrol permanent storm zones, on the look out for spies and smugglers while heavy bombers would fly missions against targets chosen with their capabilities in mind.

The whole thing could be based around IFF (identification, friend or foe) scanners. Enemy ships would read as such and therefore be legal targets while attacks on civilian craft would be punished.

If VO is going to survive then very different sorts of players/customers will have to be accommodated. This is one suggestion as to how to do that.

I am still trying to come up with ways for the pk crowd to have their battles, ambushes and raids etc. while, at the same time, allowing players who do not want to associate with these folks to go about their business unmolested.

attacks on civilians, in any space, would have severe repercussions

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Whew! I sometimes forget just how dumb they get. Thanks, I needed that this morning.

Tits or GTFO.

On second thought, just GTFO.

Utisz, I feel for ya. You post what you think are constructive ideas, and you get humiliated for them. There's a bit of culture shock going on here.

First, VO was originally almost like "space quake." Many of the players here still expect it to be as much like space-quake as possible, but with a little trading and mining thrown in.

Second, VO uses a "reality"-based concept for as much of the game mechanism as possible. So, for example, say you were being killed by a certain pirate. The best way to remedy this situation is to get a posse and kill him back, not ask the devs for some magical "newbie-protection" zone or device. Essentially, the name of the game is Vendetta for a reason. Take matters into your own hands, solve problems yourself, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, etc.

Third, VO has a good share of idiots and trolls on the forums, it's best not to encourage them. So, responding to Lecter just makes his day more enjoyable as he comes up with another "witty" attempt to verbally skewer the less-erudite.

Pirates are a part of VO. Suck it up and deal with them (unless it's griefers in newbie sectors or something).

"Pirates are a part of VO. Suck it up and deal with them (unless it's griefers in newbie sectors or something)."

Tell that to all the players who have left, not because of "pirates" but because of griefers. If VO dies it will be this sort of mindset that kills it.

What Leber said.

Utisz, I think it would be helpful if you read the last several of Incarnate's News posts (link to the left). Your ideas are good, but you need to get more informed of where things are actually headed.

"Utisz, I feel for ya. You post what you think are constructive ideas, and you get humiliated for them. There's a bit of culture shock going on here."

Thank you for your concern but it would take a lot more that a few adolescent trolls to bother me. The self centered trolls that meet every attempt at constructive comment with abuse are the same griefers who are killing the game.

If the devs cannot, or will not, control these abusive sorts of players they will end up with a beautiful game and no players.

Good advice on the trolls, by the way. Like I said, no one likes them or wants to play with them so they are just going to have to play with themselves.

Whistler.

I try to keep up with where things are headed and so far like every bit of it except one.

Linking danger with profit is good, making the "wild" sectors more "wild" is also good and developing a more realistic economy is outstanding. The problem lies not in the danger but who, or what, is supplying the danger.

To quote incarnate:

Certain people enjoy blowing up newbies, because they derive some pleasure from killing or frustrating people who cannot defend themselves and who are easy targets. This is not good for the game as a whole, and thus that type of "gameplay" is removed. We do not "have room for that type of player";

It seems to have escaped some people’s notice that “that type of player” is still around and that they are no more palatable to many experienced players than they are to newbies. If these are the folks that are in charge of supplying the “danger” then the concept is flawed.

My approach is to try to make room for the griefers as well as those who do not like them. The griefer’s solution to the problem is “do everything my way or I will get abusive.” It is their toxic personalities, and not the so called “danger” they pose, that is at the heart of the problem.

The “war” idea is one attempt to solve this problem, others no doubt can be found, but abuse and negative thinking are not the answer to VO’s lack of players problem.

I think a large part of the solution to griefing is ship balance, and I've made suggestions for ships that I believe would be very effective in anti-griefer roles.

The best response to griefers as well as proper pirates is to get an escort from a member of VPR. You can get a player list with guild tags by running the command "/msg irc active". Anyone with a VPR tag will escort you through grey space and protect you from encounters with pirates, griefers and the like. You can also help others if you get attacked by posting who attacked you and where to channel 4357.

Piracy is an important part of VO. Personally, I think the conflict between pirates, traders and anti-pirates is far more interesting than the Serco/Itani war. Your proposal removes it.

Your orginal post suggests the game should be "carebearified", which isn't what most people who play want, but in your subsequent posts you talk about newbies. Of course players shouldn't grief newbies, but carebearing the game is not the right way to prevent this.

Hi, I'm guessing you're really new here Utisz?

Would you mind sharing your definition of a "real pirate"? As I don't seem to understand how a real pirate would fit into any of your preferred changes to gameplay. Are these "real pirates" supposed to hug you 'before' or 'after' they shoot you?

Some of us like to shoot these bad guys, and they really are bad guys. Gray space is supposed to have bad guys, that's why it's gray space, if you don't like it don't go there. If you were (are?) itani/serco and go to the border and get shot at would you complain that you got shot at? If you don't want to get shot at (or at least reduce the possibility substantially) stay out of gray space, you're are apparently not ready for it.

If you want a game where it's always safe everywhere, unless you consent to being shot at, then VO is not the place for you.

Some of us don't want to be militarised. Some of us actually like being pirates. Some of us even help newbs who erred by flying into grey (by showing them the homing function naturally). If you are upset by griefers, ask your fellow VPR members or even TGFT to help you in killing them. If they are busy, ask you local pirate or just on 100.

But pleasepleaseplease STFU about how PvP is supposed to run. If you don't like it, stay out of grey. If you don't like it at all, stay out of VO.
I would naturally prefer that you stick around and come to grey so I can pirate you.

Here is a massive thumbs down for War as only option for PvP.
However a thumbs up for more content

Utisz: The Quote from incarnate is only regarding the "newbie" sectors where new players are helpless and ignorant.Piracy is and will continue to be part of the game in the non-newbie areas. There tend to be a high percentage of pirates that are “that type of player”. Piracy may be seen as a way to accommodate their behavior into a more acceptable outlet. The faction system will make actual griefing more difficult in some areas while still allowing piracy in the "wild" areas (in my opinion, one consents to attempts at combat or piracy by entering gray space). “That type of player” will always exist in any game worth playing, because a game that is restrictive enough to prevent all forms of griefing wouldn't be any fun.

While war is not a pivotal feature at the moment, it is the backdrop for the entire game and will figure prominently in the future. As incarnate's News posts have indicated, they're working on debugging large battles for this very reason.

VO is awesome because one can bot, trade, protect convoys, mine, pirate, hunt pirates, duel, and engage in (smaller) wartime missions.

zak.wilson

A large part of the solution to griefing is to allow those who don’t like to play with these sorts of people other options.

How many times do I have to say it? This isn’t about not losing ships. It is about toxic personalities and their effect on player retention.

It is pretty obvious to anyone who is paying attention that the devs would not have to drive people into Grayspace if they wanted to go there of their own accord. So the question naturally arises, “why don’t they want to go there?”

One of the main reasons a lot of other players tell me is that they don’t like the people they meet there. They could care less about losing ships, it is strictly a personality thing. All one has to do is look at the shrill and adolescent responses to anyone who tries to make constructive suggestions to see who is causing the problems.

My suggestion is an attempt to find a way to keep as many people in the game as possible by giving them different types of gameplay to choose from.

drazed

"Hi, I'm guessing you're really new here Utisz?"

You have guessed wrong. I have been around for a fair amount of time. You are also not paying attention. I have stated time and time again that I, and a lot of the players I talk to or I know who have left, are NOT interested in safety. If you can’t grasp that fact then anything else I say will be a waste of effort.

Squadrons of top notch AI pirates are preferable to griefers. It is as simple as that. A lot of what I am hearing is “I like to boom people” or other variations on “me, me, me.”

Some of you like to shoot bad guys and others like to be “bad guys.” I have no problem with that. Please feel free to play amongst yourselves. That is where the “military” idea comes in. It is a venue for these sorts of people to have fun without their fun impinging on other people’s fun, or on the business’s profitability.

I am trying to accommodate everyone, griefers only think of themselves. If the cost of them having fun is that other people do not have fun and therefore leave the game then the cost is too high and the business needs to think about that.

Azumi

“Some of us don't want to be militarized (sic). Some of us actually like being pirates”

Well some of us wish you well and hope you have fun, but do not want to play with you. Personally I have no trouble with griefers. Most of them don’t even have a chance of catching me. I come and go where I like and am often in Grayspace. You have had your chance to pirate me and usually fail.

On the rare occasions that I do lose a ship I simply smile and get another one, I have hundreds of millions in credits and there is no ship loss that can cause me any problem.

As for how PvP is “suppose to run” you are welcome to your opinion, please grant me the same courtesy. If you want to make a contribution to keeping VO alive then try to come up with solutions to its problems. And it does have problems, and a very small client base. Ignoring this fact to concentrate on one’s own pleasures at the expense of the other players is adolescent and will end up in killing the game. Learning to compromise, and think of others, is what grownups do.

There are a couple of issues here, that have gotten tangled together, it seems to me. The first is the issue of people not coming down into greyspace. I will certainly admit that that is inextricably entwined in the issue of griefers, but I'll deal with that in a minute. Some people may well choose not to go into grey because of the people they meet there, but there's a deeper reasoning behind that currently: there is no reason for people to go into greyspace, because they can make all the money they could ever need sitting in nation space.

A couple points about this fact: First, it will be changing somewhat, and has been changing somewhat, with Incarnate's economy redux. It will always be possible to make some money in nation space, just not as much as you might be able to make in grey. The second point is that this is not necessarily a bad thing. If all you want to do is do some mining and trading without getting hassled by too many people, then sitting around in nation space is fine, and you'll make money. Perhaps not as much money as the people going down into grey, but you'll probably have fewer credit sinks than they do, and you're taking on less risk, so it makes sense. Nobody is going to force you to go down into grey if you don't want to. It's supposed to be dangerous, and if you don't want to face the danger you don't have to, and you'll still be able to make a living. But for those who are willing to face the risks, hopefully these new changes will incentivize the dangerous routes, and there will be more grey traffic.

The bonus side to that is that once more traders are coming into grey, more pirates will start coming back/starting up. One of the main problems with the griefers at it stands now is that they are almost the only bad guys around. It used to be that the real pirates would outnumber the griefers greatly, 10 to 1 or something like that. That way the pirates would be attacking or ransoming the traders, but they would also be attacking the griefers, because griefing is bad for business. There are currently very few active pirates, probably about as many as there are active griefers, and it is this imbalance that more traders in grey would hopefully help to fix.

On the topic of griefers, the story is a bit more complicated. The VO populace has settled into a set routine more or less, with most vets either doing their own thing or congregating in Sedina. That congregation makes the griefers the problem that they currently are. Because people come to Sedina B-8 for consensual PvP, the griefers go there to mess with everyone, and to a certain extent there's not terribly much one can do to stop them other than chasing them around like sillybuggers. That is not a solution, because it gives them the attention that they want, and it takes time out of your playing, so they win anyway. Perhaps the best solution would be for there to be more variety in PvP arenas, instead of everyone just heading to B8 by default. There are tons and tons of empty sectors around for playing in, even empty roid sectors for those so inclined, and you can even have everyone come set up there as an impromptu B8 just through word of mouth. The only way to properly fight trolls and griefers is to remove their food, and their food is the attention you give them. You can't really ignore a griefer attacking everyone in B8 unless you're good enough to always dodge what they throw at you and just waste their ammo, but if there's no set meeting place for everyone to fight, there are fewer opportunities for successful griefing. It would take a big effort on the part of the vets invested in B8 to change it, but that sort of change is possible.

tl;dr You can stay in Nation space all you want with no repercussions other than getting less money. Don't feed the trolls. /ignore is a fine friend to have.

Oh, and one other thing. Regarding how PvP is supposed to run, the devs have made it very clear that they want there to always be a little bit of danger involved in the game. Obviously while you're starting out and still don't know what's going on you get some hand-holding, but the lack of any PvP-free zones is part of what makes VO what it is. As it is, Nation space is extremely safe, due to the introduction of the turrets (especially all the capitol turrets, if you go deep in Itani space any griefer who doesn't have high standing, and would therefore take a decent hit for killing you, would have to traverse a great many turreted wormholes), so you can mostly relax. But the constant possibility of danger is part of the game's charm. Of course, some of us afkmine in Odia, so YMMV. :P

Whistler
I agree. “VO is awesome because one can bot, trade, protect convoys, mine, pirate, hunt pirates, duel, and engage in (smaller) wartime missions.” But obviously there are problems or more people would see what you and I see and still be playing it. My suggestions are an attempt to identify those problems that cost the company paying clients, and the rest of us people to play with.

I am quite aware that icarnate’s comment was about newbies. Apparently I failed to make it clear that the people who do not like the trolls when they are newbies do not suddenly develop a liking for them when they get more experienced. Piracy is one ATTEMPT to accommodate trolls and their anti-social behavior. Obviously it is not a successful attempt or we would not be hemorrhaging players.

You are absolutely right, “that” type of player will always be around. I am simply making a suggestion for another attempt to accommodate them, while accommodating others as well. Those who insist on having their way at the expense of others are hurting the game.

War is one way to do this and by war I do not mean large battles. I mean missions and gameplay that resembles much of what the griefers already do but does it in a way that tries to keep them happy while keeping other players in the game. IFF allows military, mercenaries, privateers and the like to have a grand old time chasing each other around without bothering others.

Incarnate has the right idea, he simply has not carried it far enough. To restate the problem using his insight:

Certain people (bullies) enjoy blowing up (other players) because they derive some pleasure from killing or frustrating people….(That type are) not good for the game as a whole, and thus that type of "gameplay" (should be) removed. We do not "have room for that type of player.”

We need to look for solutions and to limit the power of the selfish to ruin the game for others.

Okay Utiz... I hear you. This isn't about "danger", it's about the personalities... so use the /ignore function.

You're having difficulty staying on message here. First it's "war only" because of danger issues (or so it seemed), then it was "newbie killing" (which the newbie zones prevent, so a moot point), now it's "toxic personalities".

If "toxic personalities" is really the problem you have, then seriously, use /ignore. If you don't want to deal with these people, don't go to grey. You're "we need to ask why people don't go to grey" comment is incredibly off-base. People don't want to go to grey because the risk is not yet worth the reward. There should be risk in grey. Once the reward is worth the risk of travel into grey, people will trade/go there more. Sure, people don't go to grey because they don't want to deal with rats, but that's because they have no incentive (yet) to deal with them. If their personalities are what annoy you, then /ignore and call your local VPR, TGFT, PA, etc for a bit of help.

In grey terr, there will always be griefers. Some people get off on killing others. Use an escort (or any other bloody in-game feature) to neutralize their threat. You need teamwork just as much as the rats should need it. Those players drive many aspects of game play, whether you like them or not.

Also, on a side note, you can respond to multiple people in one post. Please do that. Artificially inflating the response count on a thread is amateur (though my bet is unintentionally so).

EDIT: in essence, you are asking for the devs to make the game unplayable for the people whom you dislike. The people you dislike pay for the game as well, and with the new newbie sectors (and stronger defenses in nation-space), are less likely to make a newbie turn from the game before they subscribe, or even make a new subscribed player unsub... by the time the pirate/griefer gets into the picture, the player hopefully has enough time ingame to A) understand what is happening, and B) want to continue playing as they have already spent the time building the char. So to sum up my point... I completely and utterly do not understand your point, its objective, and its purpose.

EDIT2: diqrtvpe makes a good point. The number of griefers in relation to pirates is currently unfortunately high due to the fact that pirates can't sustain that much of a living with current activity in grey (and their current inability to fly into UIT space to make cash from unsuspecting nation-space traders). As traders start making their way into grey in two-player ships or ships with escorts in order to make the excessively large sums that nation-to-greyspace trade will provide, you will see many "real" pirates return. As nearly everyone before me in this thread has mentioned, please read the newsposts... as they will give you insight as to the how, what and why of traders (or lack there of) in grey.