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Imagine trying to hit something as a newbie with rails. Try to hit something with neuts now. You'll notice a severe difference in hittingpercentage. And how difficult do newbies sometimes find it to kill bots already... While one of the big beefs with most newbies is the steepness of the learningcurve and this is with autoaim help factored in? And now shape is planning on increasing it even more by decreasing the autoaim items.
Now the proposal of shape will in most cases let the nts, aaps, etc act like rails but at an even worse speed. (180 * 1.35 << 400 - 500).
Bots don't have this handicap. So newbies will die more, requiring even more money. While the vets (or at least the people that prefer the non roll dodge like shape are decent at fighting with non autoaim) will relatively become even better because this new fightingcircumstances will benefit their strengths.
And all this is with bots being relatively easy to fight due to their AI, but seeing that the devs were intent to change up their AI a bit more (firstly the randomization factor), i fear it will become a tad to much.
Just leave it as it is, and make small incremental changes, not dumb hey i have a cool idea after watching some scifi serie... lets kick out everything on which we have been balancing 2 years and start completely anew.
(i'm starting to appreciate/understand some of genkas post...)
EDIT: but like lord Q stated, changing the autoaim won't necessarilly make the game better just different. But maybe that is what you intended to do so you felt a bit more challenged?
Now the proposal of shape will in most cases let the nts, aaps, etc act like rails but at an even worse speed. (180 * 1.35 << 400 - 500).
Bots don't have this handicap. So newbies will die more, requiring even more money. While the vets (or at least the people that prefer the non roll dodge like shape are decent at fighting with non autoaim) will relatively become even better because this new fightingcircumstances will benefit their strengths.
And all this is with bots being relatively easy to fight due to their AI, but seeing that the devs were intent to change up their AI a bit more (firstly the randomization factor), i fear it will become a tad to much.
Just leave it as it is, and make small incremental changes, not dumb hey i have a cool idea after watching some scifi serie... lets kick out everything on which we have been balancing 2 years and start completely anew.
(i'm starting to appreciate/understand some of genkas post...)
EDIT: but like lord Q stated, changing the autoaim won't necessarilly make the game better just different. But maybe that is what you intended to do so you felt a bit more challenged?
Rene, what makes Rails so hard to hit with is the reload time/ammo, NOT the autoaim.
You only have one shot to hit with. With the new fast Neuts, you can line up fine, you don't even have to be exactly on the marker to score hits. It just makes it more likely.
With a constant spray, even newbies will still hit, especially if the neuts are faster.
Rails are also hard BECAUSE they are so fast. Sure, if you're lined up correctly, they'll hit. But they're so fast that if you're off by even a little bit, the window in which you hit them is so small to make a chance hit impossible.
Not true with neuts, the window tends to allow blasts a bit more time to connect.
it would make the game different, but, imho it would have little effect on newbies, while opening up a wider range of strategies on the more experienced end.
You only have one shot to hit with. With the new fast Neuts, you can line up fine, you don't even have to be exactly on the marker to score hits. It just makes it more likely.
With a constant spray, even newbies will still hit, especially if the neuts are faster.
Rails are also hard BECAUSE they are so fast. Sure, if you're lined up correctly, they'll hit. But they're so fast that if you're off by even a little bit, the window in which you hit them is so small to make a chance hit impossible.
Not true with neuts, the window tends to allow blasts a bit more time to connect.
it would make the game different, but, imho it would have little effect on newbies, while opening up a wider range of strategies on the more experienced end.
Shape, the first obstacle is the lack of autoaim. You will need to have a near perfect line up to score a hit.
The speed makes sure that the change in direction of your opponent is as small as possible so as not to miss him. It makes it easier to hit then harder..., if you don't agree to that then i suggest taking out a neut and only limiting yourself to 20 shots. Then do the same with rails and in both cases not use autoaim. In dead sure that in the majority of the cases the rails will hit more easilly then the neut, it is also one of the reasons why people use neuts in stead of phased blasters at later levels.
Now the chance hit has nothingt to do with the window of opportunity, but with lack of spammable means. The more shots you have the more hits statistically will land, but the difficulty of hitting something has no real bearing on the number of shots you have except a minor psychological effect. Meaning if you have 30 shots and you miss one, big deal. If you only have 5 left... then you are going to only take the shots on which you are sure to have a near perfect chance...
But like you said, it will make the game different, but it will have a serious effect on newbies, although maybe not as big as on us non newbs that learned to fight with autoaim and will have to delearn a habit, which acording to many is harder then anything else. And for what? Because its different, because it might open up more tactics? I would just see even more people grasping for the gauss, the agt and the sunflare to be honest in stead of even bothering with the rest of the weapons except for during newbiemode. But all in all it will change nothing, except make fights end up in being harder, and take longer in stead of shorter as you advertised. Heck fighting will even become less skilled since all people will do that still take out aaps or neuts is spamming their ubercharged neuts as they do now already... with the chainfire method just in the hopes of catching the zippy ships somewhere in their spamfire.
But that is my opinion, i really don't see a real reason why we should change soemthing which was fun and entertaining for 5 years completely. I can agree to small adjustments here and there... to make it more interesting but just throw away everyhting what has been build up during the alpha, beta and release sounds not the best way for me.
The speed makes sure that the change in direction of your opponent is as small as possible so as not to miss him. It makes it easier to hit then harder..., if you don't agree to that then i suggest taking out a neut and only limiting yourself to 20 shots. Then do the same with rails and in both cases not use autoaim. In dead sure that in the majority of the cases the rails will hit more easilly then the neut, it is also one of the reasons why people use neuts in stead of phased blasters at later levels.
Now the chance hit has nothingt to do with the window of opportunity, but with lack of spammable means. The more shots you have the more hits statistically will land, but the difficulty of hitting something has no real bearing on the number of shots you have except a minor psychological effect. Meaning if you have 30 shots and you miss one, big deal. If you only have 5 left... then you are going to only take the shots on which you are sure to have a near perfect chance...
But like you said, it will make the game different, but it will have a serious effect on newbies, although maybe not as big as on us non newbs that learned to fight with autoaim and will have to delearn a habit, which acording to many is harder then anything else. And for what? Because its different, because it might open up more tactics? I would just see even more people grasping for the gauss, the agt and the sunflare to be honest in stead of even bothering with the rest of the weapons except for during newbiemode. But all in all it will change nothing, except make fights end up in being harder, and take longer in stead of shorter as you advertised. Heck fighting will even become less skilled since all people will do that still take out aaps or neuts is spamming their ubercharged neuts as they do now already... with the chainfire method just in the hopes of catching the zippy ships somewhere in their spamfire.
But that is my opinion, i really don't see a real reason why we should change soemthing which was fun and entertaining for 5 years completely. I can agree to small adjustments here and there... to make it more interesting but just throw away everyhting what has been build up during the alpha, beta and release sounds not the best way for me.
You may get one hit on them while changing direction, but those hits are arbitrary, they should NOT rely on the speed of the wep.
Strings of fire land when you're actually tracking your opponent.
And I brought up the rate of fire issue in my earlier post if you had read it.
I have to disagree with you. Chance hits DO have to do with the window of opportunity. Its not the only thing, but yeah, in connection with high rate of fire, it makes neuts with rail autoaim perfectly viable. I know because I fly so as to make the window of opportunity largest, and from certain angles, etc... I can up my hit percentage enormously.
I totally disagree that newbies will miss continuously. Since if they're strafing, they'll find the point they have to reach and hit it. Against Orun collectors it will be no problem. You won't convince me that a new player wouldn't be able to hit an Orun with such a small change. Especially with faster blasters.
I have no problem with people using the adjusted gauss, it would
be good, but no better than the neuts. As heavy as it is....
As far as people using AGT? they're welcome to. But with a smaller autoaim cone, they won't be able to aim both flares and AGT at the same time. (well they could for a small range of angles)
Re: your point about rockets. I suggested making them netable. AKA slower.
And its not changing it completely, you're talking about fairly minor changes.
Strings of fire land when you're actually tracking your opponent.
And I brought up the rate of fire issue in my earlier post if you had read it.
I have to disagree with you. Chance hits DO have to do with the window of opportunity. Its not the only thing, but yeah, in connection with high rate of fire, it makes neuts with rail autoaim perfectly viable. I know because I fly so as to make the window of opportunity largest, and from certain angles, etc... I can up my hit percentage enormously.
I totally disagree that newbies will miss continuously. Since if they're strafing, they'll find the point they have to reach and hit it. Against Orun collectors it will be no problem. You won't convince me that a new player wouldn't be able to hit an Orun with such a small change. Especially with faster blasters.
I have no problem with people using the adjusted gauss, it would
be good, but no better than the neuts. As heavy as it is....
As far as people using AGT? they're welcome to. But with a smaller autoaim cone, they won't be able to aim both flares and AGT at the same time. (well they could for a small range of angles)
Re: your point about rockets. I suggested making them netable. AKA slower.
And its not changing it completely, you're talking about fairly minor changes.
I am talking about dropping the speed of the ships with a small fraction (5- 10%), adjust the agts weight a bit more upwards and a small 1 - 2% decrease in aimingcone.
Then make flares in general a bit slower (5 - 10m/s), maybe more dependent on how much the ships will go down or maybe decrease the prox fuse on flares with 5 - 10m, as to make jackhammers a better option then 1 or even 2 sunnies. Then see how it goes and adjust accordingly.
That is what i would call balancing step by step.. in stead of drop speeds with 35%, increase speeds of weapons with 35%, abolish autoaim on x,... there has been a reason why autoaim got implimented in the beginning anyway. Its not because you are big enough of a vet that you don't need it anymroe that it won't help the newbies in playing the game. Heck i remember fondly the moment i started playing and couldn't hit jack... even with autoaim ions...
spammable means is not only rof it is also the ability to have unlimited ammo... which i was hinting at.
And i read the change to rockets, my point was that by changign the regular neuts and aaps and the other regular energybased weapons worse you'll again make the flares a better alternatif, even if you have to net them or can net them.
Anyway once more whats wrong with small changes? The fighting in game is enjoyable as it is isn't it? At least it has been enjoyable like that for 5 years, so why in th sudden do we need to change it all in the blink of an eye? Just because you saw an episode of BSG and were drawn to something different? Something which will end up in another year of balancing and whines etc... just because its different from what we ar eusing now doesn't make it better or more skilled.
EDIT wanted to reply to this seperately reason why i'm quoting it afterwards:
[quote]
I know because I fly so as to make the window of opportunity largest, and from certain angles, etc... I can up my hit percentage enormously.[/quote]
and last time i checked you are considered to be one of the most skilled fighters in the game, but it has taken you a reasonable time to get to the ability to fly like you are... it isn't something as easy as jumping into the game and taking advantage of the autoaim feature and have a moderate amount of success. But why make everybody HAVE to fly like you? Why should everybody follow your flying to have fun in the game. Why can't it remain a bit more arcadelike for some moderate amount of success and once people think they are up to the challenge they can change their tactics to the more advanced items like boxdodging, no rolldodging, non autoaim shooting, etc...
EDIT2: anyway if the devs will change it like that I'll adjust, i just don't see the reason why we should adjust... the game is perfectly enjoyable as it stands after some minor changes.
Then make flares in general a bit slower (5 - 10m/s), maybe more dependent on how much the ships will go down or maybe decrease the prox fuse on flares with 5 - 10m, as to make jackhammers a better option then 1 or even 2 sunnies. Then see how it goes and adjust accordingly.
That is what i would call balancing step by step.. in stead of drop speeds with 35%, increase speeds of weapons with 35%, abolish autoaim on x,... there has been a reason why autoaim got implimented in the beginning anyway. Its not because you are big enough of a vet that you don't need it anymroe that it won't help the newbies in playing the game. Heck i remember fondly the moment i started playing and couldn't hit jack... even with autoaim ions...
spammable means is not only rof it is also the ability to have unlimited ammo... which i was hinting at.
And i read the change to rockets, my point was that by changign the regular neuts and aaps and the other regular energybased weapons worse you'll again make the flares a better alternatif, even if you have to net them or can net them.
Anyway once more whats wrong with small changes? The fighting in game is enjoyable as it is isn't it? At least it has been enjoyable like that for 5 years, so why in th sudden do we need to change it all in the blink of an eye? Just because you saw an episode of BSG and were drawn to something different? Something which will end up in another year of balancing and whines etc... just because its different from what we ar eusing now doesn't make it better or more skilled.
EDIT wanted to reply to this seperately reason why i'm quoting it afterwards:
[quote]
I know because I fly so as to make the window of opportunity largest, and from certain angles, etc... I can up my hit percentage enormously.[/quote]
and last time i checked you are considered to be one of the most skilled fighters in the game, but it has taken you a reasonable time to get to the ability to fly like you are... it isn't something as easy as jumping into the game and taking advantage of the autoaim feature and have a moderate amount of success. But why make everybody HAVE to fly like you? Why should everybody follow your flying to have fun in the game. Why can't it remain a bit more arcadelike for some moderate amount of success and once people think they are up to the challenge they can change their tactics to the more advanced items like boxdodging, no rolldodging, non autoaim shooting, etc...
EDIT2: anyway if the devs will change it like that I'll adjust, i just don't see the reason why we should adjust... the game is perfectly enjoyable as it stands after some minor changes.
I would like to point out (again) that I dont use autoaim for Blaster style guns (ions, phase, neuts, posi), and when I figured out how to turn it off (as a newby) I was delighted, and started actually being able to hit them backrolling vets. (heh :P)
Saying that we have used the *same* combat model since alpha/beta is plain wrong, ship speeds are higher, mass is higher (we had no weapon mass in alpha, or no fancy IBGs that manouvered at 75ms, infact, wasnt *cruise speed* capped to 55ms in beta?) and yes, even ship sizes have been changed (valk was slimmer, or the cent was slightlty fatter, hog went through a phase of being around the same size as a hornet) [/rant]
All in all i'd like to test it, maybe the devs could (didnt i suggest this before they released a test client?) make a seperate download, maybe only make it able to log onto the test server, so we can *test* upcoming ship stat changes, and bitch about em before they hit production.
Oh, and while we are at it, hog needs some lovin, maybe just a 5% thrust increase on the mk3 and mk4... :)
Saying that we have used the *same* combat model since alpha/beta is plain wrong, ship speeds are higher, mass is higher (we had no weapon mass in alpha, or no fancy IBGs that manouvered at 75ms, infact, wasnt *cruise speed* capped to 55ms in beta?) and yes, even ship sizes have been changed (valk was slimmer, or the cent was slightlty fatter, hog went through a phase of being around the same size as a hornet) [/rant]
All in all i'd like to test it, maybe the devs could (didnt i suggest this before they released a test client?) make a seperate download, maybe only make it able to log onto the test server, so we can *test* upcoming ship stat changes, and bitch about em before they hit production.
Oh, and while we are at it, hog needs some lovin, maybe just a 5% thrust increase on the mk3 and mk4... :)
Yoda, i mostly just keep autoaim on, but don't target them if i am using ions. Less of a hassle then prerssing that annoying little button way on the other side of my keyboard to put it off. Although on occasions i just prefer the simple thing of shooting while watching for the yellowishness of the square. But like i said, at the start i'm sure it was a great help. And afterwards you started looking beyond the simple yellowness of the square. Or am I wrong yoda? Would you have found it easier if you hadn't had autoaim from the start? For me, i know it would have made it way way more difficult.
And to ocme back to your point concerning combatmodel, in actuallity the combatmodel hasn't been affected as much as the reduction of autoaim would do now... , but every time we had a drastic change you heard the same outcries concerning balance and the associated whining and bitching. heck... some of the changes that have been made back then are still somewhat problematic now. The masssystem was considered to be the way to go, but it is still somewhat difficult to balance. The cruisespeed increase as well, seeing as we are talking about a decrease of the speeds now. Flares got beefed and again you hear the outcries. Prom got nerfed, boosted and is in hte process of getting nerfed again. the valk got boosted nerfed, nerfed some more and talks are again about boosting them (what imho would be a big error). In stead of just making slowly some changes and seeing how it would go afterwards, as I'm proposing now.
But all in all, i would prefer not to test it. I don't see the fun in such a change. (but this is my opinion, and in the end the devs choose chatever they want)
And no the hog is more then fine... I would even start thinking about nerfing it... or at least nerf the TD-hog...
And to ocme back to your point concerning combatmodel, in actuallity the combatmodel hasn't been affected as much as the reduction of autoaim would do now... , but every time we had a drastic change you heard the same outcries concerning balance and the associated whining and bitching. heck... some of the changes that have been made back then are still somewhat problematic now. The masssystem was considered to be the way to go, but it is still somewhat difficult to balance. The cruisespeed increase as well, seeing as we are talking about a decrease of the speeds now. Flares got beefed and again you hear the outcries. Prom got nerfed, boosted and is in hte process of getting nerfed again. the valk got boosted nerfed, nerfed some more and talks are again about boosting them (what imho would be a big error). In stead of just making slowly some changes and seeing how it would go afterwards, as I'm proposing now.
But all in all, i would prefer not to test it. I don't see the fun in such a change. (but this is my opinion, and in the end the devs choose chatever they want)
And no the hog is more then fine... I would even start thinking about nerfing it... or at least nerf the TD-hog...
this is not Battlestar Galactica
This is not the movies, this is not cinema...
Neither is real life. In real life, things would not play out like they were so neatly choreographed EITHER. In fact, even if you did make these changes you're suggesting, I seriously doubt that the game would turn out anything like that. The fact remains that people will use the most effective and convenient tactics rather than the ones that make it look 'cool' to an observer.
There, now that we've established that fact...
Frankly, I'd rather have fun FIGHTING, than WATCHING a fight, so how it looks doesn't matter to me one way or another.
VO is currently FUN to play and fight in, has an easy learning curve, and still favors intelligence, tactics and skill over mindless autoaim spraying. DO NOT CHANGE IT.
And above all, DO NOT SLOW THINGS DOWN! The only thing which nagged at and bothered me about this game was that everything is so slow! 200m/sec is SLUGGISH by space-travel standards, and the non-turbo speed is low enough to remove any excitement from close-quarters navigation. We do NOT need to make it slower!
YodaofBorg:
"All in all i'd like to test it, maybe the devs could (didnt i suggest this before they released a test client?) make a seperate download, maybe only make it able to log onto the test server, so we can *test* upcoming ship stat changes, and bitch about em before they hit production."
Virtually the only good idea I've read in this thread... thank you.
Modulate a test client to try out different weapon and ship stats on the test server - then people can critique the shit BEFORE it hits the fan.
This is not the movies, this is not cinema...
Neither is real life. In real life, things would not play out like they were so neatly choreographed EITHER. In fact, even if you did make these changes you're suggesting, I seriously doubt that the game would turn out anything like that. The fact remains that people will use the most effective and convenient tactics rather than the ones that make it look 'cool' to an observer.
There, now that we've established that fact...
Frankly, I'd rather have fun FIGHTING, than WATCHING a fight, so how it looks doesn't matter to me one way or another.
VO is currently FUN to play and fight in, has an easy learning curve, and still favors intelligence, tactics and skill over mindless autoaim spraying. DO NOT CHANGE IT.
And above all, DO NOT SLOW THINGS DOWN! The only thing which nagged at and bothered me about this game was that everything is so slow! 200m/sec is SLUGGISH by space-travel standards, and the non-turbo speed is low enough to remove any excitement from close-quarters navigation. We do NOT need to make it slower!
YodaofBorg:
"All in all i'd like to test it, maybe the devs could (didnt i suggest this before they released a test client?) make a seperate download, maybe only make it able to log onto the test server, so we can *test* upcoming ship stat changes, and bitch about em before they hit production."
Virtually the only good idea I've read in this thread... thank you.
Modulate a test client to try out different weapon and ship stats on the test server - then people can critique the shit BEFORE it hits the fan.
Renegade:
Jackhammers are already far more favorable than sunnies... they have twice the refire rate AND a bigger warhead. Two jackhammers on a Centaur can do far more damage, and faster, than four sunflares on a hornet. They're also make very good rocket nets... if you know how to throw them.
People already complain about "spam-this" and "spam-that". Wouldn't a redux in speed and autoAim only make this worse? think about it... Spamming with rockets, missiles, AGT, etc... would become the IN-THING, because they would then be the most effective means of killing.
So no, you're not changing anything by lowering autoAIm and speed. People will still use the most effective weapons and tactics. This will not become Battlestar Galactica, and moreover, it will become a very aggrivating world for the newbies we want to get addicted to this shit.
This will make it harder on the newbies (who like hitting things, and like moving fast) and it will make it harder on me (who likes short and exciting battles)
And that's the other thing... you will not make battles faster with the proposed changes... you will make them slower. You will make it more difficult to hit (small ships especially) at any range, and dramatically draw out energy spamfests. With the exception of a few people (like you, Shape) the changes will only encourage more abuse of cheap tactics and/or irritate people.
Jackhammers are already far more favorable than sunnies... they have twice the refire rate AND a bigger warhead. Two jackhammers on a Centaur can do far more damage, and faster, than four sunflares on a hornet. They're also make very good rocket nets... if you know how to throw them.
People already complain about "spam-this" and "spam-that". Wouldn't a redux in speed and autoAim only make this worse? think about it... Spamming with rockets, missiles, AGT, etc... would become the IN-THING, because they would then be the most effective means of killing.
So no, you're not changing anything by lowering autoAIm and speed. People will still use the most effective weapons and tactics. This will not become Battlestar Galactica, and moreover, it will become a very aggrivating world for the newbies we want to get addicted to this shit.
This will make it harder on the newbies (who like hitting things, and like moving fast) and it will make it harder on me (who likes short and exciting battles)
And that's the other thing... you will not make battles faster with the proposed changes... you will make them slower. You will make it more difficult to hit (small ships especially) at any range, and dramatically draw out energy spamfests. With the exception of a few people (like you, Shape) the changes will only encourage more abuse of cheap tactics and/or irritate people.
Not really cunjo, i still prefer 1 sun above 1 jack, the reduced safety on the sun is a better investment coupled with the advantage of plasmadevs/agts then a gauss/neut setup coupled with jackhammers.
On top of that, in most cases you practically don't really use the refire rate seeing that you only have a limited amount of them. Only if jacks had unlimited ammo (which is abig nono though) the refire rate would be a huge advantage.
The bigger warhead gets countered with the ability to mount multiple suns on most ship (4 suns beat 1 jack, 3 suns beat 1 jack)... Heck 3 suns even beat 2 jacks damagewise, numberwise and proxwise not to mention safetywise. Which i nturn make them better as a deterrant (so defencewise)
I agree with the rest of the points though cunjo(I just didn't want to make it so hard :D), except maybe speed, i wouldn't mind seeing a small deduction in speed seeing that in most cases it will depower the flares a bit and leave some more room for a mans reflexes.
On top of that, in most cases you practically don't really use the refire rate seeing that you only have a limited amount of them. Only if jacks had unlimited ammo (which is abig nono though) the refire rate would be a huge advantage.
The bigger warhead gets countered with the ability to mount multiple suns on most ship (4 suns beat 1 jack, 3 suns beat 1 jack)... Heck 3 suns even beat 2 jacks damagewise, numberwise and proxwise not to mention safetywise. Which i nturn make them better as a deterrant (so defencewise)
I agree with the rest of the points though cunjo(I just didn't want to make it so hard :D), except maybe speed, i wouldn't mind seeing a small deduction in speed seeing that in most cases it will depower the flares a bit and leave some more room for a mans reflexes.
Dihelical Synthesis: This isn't about watching, ships are fast enough compared to weapons right now that a fight can last 15 minutes if one party is willing to draw it out.
Fights that involve a Light fighter are just tag fests. They take a LOOONG time.
The reason that I brought up the look of BSG was that the combat IS almost identical.
I know it seems like it would be a lot more fun if all the ships were faster, but between lag problems for some players, and the ranges that that would require for fighting, the combat in this game would grind to a halt.
Capital ship fights have shown that fighter battles last too long. If you start a fight, the cap ship just comes over and kills the enemy before one of them is halfway through their hull.
As far as turning battles into spamfests. I disagree, for one, the AGT suddenly loses its ability to own within 50 m,
sure people COULD stay further back (like they already do) but there's even less incentive to.
Fights that involve a Light fighter are just tag fests. They take a LOOONG time.
The reason that I brought up the look of BSG was that the combat IS almost identical.
I know it seems like it would be a lot more fun if all the ships were faster, but between lag problems for some players, and the ranges that that would require for fighting, the combat in this game would grind to a halt.
Capital ship fights have shown that fighter battles last too long. If you start a fight, the cap ship just comes over and kills the enemy before one of them is halfway through their hull.
As far as turning battles into spamfests. I disagree, for one, the AGT suddenly loses its ability to own within 50 m,
sure people COULD stay further back (like they already do) but there's even less incentive to.
Ah, Id like to *test* it, on the *test* server only, just to see if shape is correct, I really wouldnt want to impose such a big change on the current game right now, I know it has issues, but *sorry shape* im not sure this is the answer either, but i would like a chance to test some of the *better* ideas to fix balance, like this one :)
[edit]
yeah yeah, I know the devs dont have the time to make test clients all the time n stuff, but at least for some of the ideas that most people support (and have been debated to death, like *balance issues*) it would be nice to have a testing phase, like the one for the new UI before just push 'slow shps , less cargo , less hp , nerf flares'; ect.
[edit]
yeah yeah, I know the devs dont have the time to make test clients all the time n stuff, but at least for some of the ideas that most people support (and have been debated to death, like *balance issues*) it would be nice to have a testing phase, like the one for the new UI before just push 'slow shps , less cargo , less hp , nerf flares'; ect.
I'll disagree with di syn:VO is currently FUN to play and fight in, has an easy learning curve, and still favors intelligence, tactics and skill over mindless autoaim spraying. DO NOT CHANGE IT.
Um, right now it definitely favors mindless autoaim spraying. Waltz into B8 and you'll see bunches of SCP's amd Rags. Swarms and AGT are the rule of the day.
Um, right now it definitely favors mindless autoaim spraying. Waltz into B8 and you'll see bunches of SCP's amd Rags. Swarms and AGT are the rule of the day.
I'm going to have to agree with Lebermacs last statement, though there are also Hogs, but they are also packing AGT's and Rockets and everyother auto-aiming weapons in the game.
Renegade:
"Only if jacks had unlimited ammo (which is abig nono though) the refire rate would be a huge advantage"
If you're talking about rocket-netting, the refire rate is a huge advantage. What jacks lack in endurance, they make up for in potency. Suprise attacks, rushes, rocketnets - jacks are better for those things. damagewise, they are also superior. The advantages of using them in a fight are very similar tot he advantages of a heavy over FC battery - depending on fighting style, you're likely to choose one over the other. Jacks:Suns::Heavy:FC The only *real* trouble with mounting jacks, is that you then have fewer options for mounting other effective weapons. (and also that jacks cannot currently be mounted in a side-by-side pattern for maximum coverage/spread on anything but a moth)
Shape:
You're decreasing the speed of the ships with respect to the weapons. You will encourage people to stay further back.
And you won't significantly decrease the efficiency of the AGT. The trouble with the AGT is the mass (too light) and the tracking speed (instantaneous) not the auto-aim cone.
So capitol ships are overpowered and inappropriately armed... what does that have to do with the speed of combat? nothing. if it did have something to do with it, how would your solution help? it wouldn't.
Yes, I agree that light fighter combat is a long, drawn-out tag-fest. Removing auto-aim will make that worse, not better.
How is combat identical to BSG? that seems like a contradiction, seeing is how the whole point of this thread was to say that it wasn't, and that it should be made to be so. I would suggest that helix is right, and that it can't be made like BSG, because BSG isn't modeled after any aspect of reality in human nature or combat. It's modeled to look cool, and so that's what it does, and it does it well.
If you want it to be like BSG, well that's nice... hire some actors to fly their ships around in fancy and exiting ways and get a professional cinematographer to record them... because that's all it is - acting.
anyway, that's how I understood the point of that post...
"Only if jacks had unlimited ammo (which is abig nono though) the refire rate would be a huge advantage"
If you're talking about rocket-netting, the refire rate is a huge advantage. What jacks lack in endurance, they make up for in potency. Suprise attacks, rushes, rocketnets - jacks are better for those things. damagewise, they are also superior. The advantages of using them in a fight are very similar tot he advantages of a heavy over FC battery - depending on fighting style, you're likely to choose one over the other. Jacks:Suns::Heavy:FC The only *real* trouble with mounting jacks, is that you then have fewer options for mounting other effective weapons. (and also that jacks cannot currently be mounted in a side-by-side pattern for maximum coverage/spread on anything but a moth)
Shape:
You're decreasing the speed of the ships with respect to the weapons. You will encourage people to stay further back.
And you won't significantly decrease the efficiency of the AGT. The trouble with the AGT is the mass (too light) and the tracking speed (instantaneous) not the auto-aim cone.
So capitol ships are overpowered and inappropriately armed... what does that have to do with the speed of combat? nothing. if it did have something to do with it, how would your solution help? it wouldn't.
Yes, I agree that light fighter combat is a long, drawn-out tag-fest. Removing auto-aim will make that worse, not better.
How is combat identical to BSG? that seems like a contradiction, seeing is how the whole point of this thread was to say that it wasn't, and that it should be made to be so. I would suggest that helix is right, and that it can't be made like BSG, because BSG isn't modeled after any aspect of reality in human nature or combat. It's modeled to look cool, and so that's what it does, and it does it well.
If you want it to be like BSG, well that's nice... hire some actors to fly their ships around in fancy and exiting ways and get a professional cinematographer to record them... because that's all it is - acting.
anyway, that's how I understood the point of that post...
3 suns net better then 1 jack cunjo. Just use them alternately.
fire sun 1, then sun 2 , then sun 3, then sun 1, etc. In the end you will have abigger net, more moments of concussion (and therefore not getting hit back). Otherwise you can use the tripple shot to maximize the first strike by not having to be dead accurate. Same with dual suns, more endurance, same refire rate, more concussion, better for followup hits.
But in potency screamers are better, seeing as they do have the damagedealing potential that surpasses the sun. the only thing holding them back is the very high safety, which makes using them pretty tough.
But naturally in a singular comparison they are better.
Still the comprison you hav eto make isn't jack - sunflare but sunflare - gauss / neut and jack - agt/plasładev/megaposi. And in these cases the jackhammer loses in amajority of the cases. Unless you are searching for a special build (like rocketrags, etc...)
fire sun 1, then sun 2 , then sun 3, then sun 1, etc. In the end you will have abigger net, more moments of concussion (and therefore not getting hit back). Otherwise you can use the tripple shot to maximize the first strike by not having to be dead accurate. Same with dual suns, more endurance, same refire rate, more concussion, better for followup hits.
But in potency screamers are better, seeing as they do have the damagedealing potential that surpasses the sun. the only thing holding them back is the very high safety, which makes using them pretty tough.
But naturally in a singular comparison they are better.
Still the comprison you hav eto make isn't jack - sunflare but sunflare - gauss / neut and jack - agt/plasładev/megaposi. And in these cases the jackhammer loses in amajority of the cases. Unless you are searching for a special build (like rocketrags, etc...)
Look, all I'm going to say is that making the AGT heavier will not solve anything. Yes, it will reduce its effectiveness on the prom as the prom will move slower, but no one considers the effect of having a heavier AGT on the hog. Having a heavier hog only means that you become a sitting target, and the hog will return to being about as useful as it was before being balanced. In otherwords, useless.
the hog is decent with megapos, plasmadevs, gausses, suns, jacks...
It doesn't need the agt...
the agt is more something for ships like centaurs and rags. And if the hog should mounth the agt, it should at least be as heavy as mounting a sunflare and a plasmadev if not even heavier...
Not to mention that the hog is still priceless as convoyguardian with its high cruisespeed.
It doesn't need the agt...
the agt is more something for ships like centaurs and rags. And if the hog should mounth the agt, it should at least be as heavy as mounting a sunflare and a plasmadev if not even heavier...
Not to mention that the hog is still priceless as convoyguardian with its high cruisespeed.
Lord Q said:
actualy if you want more BSG like combat you should either cut all ships armor by a steep percentage (50% or more) or increase all weapon damage by a similar amount. the reason the fights end so fast in BSG is because one burst from a viper's weapons cripples or destroyes a raider (and vise versa). this would also make ambushes and tactics more effective because well, your targets die easier.
as far as reducing autoaim and ship speed, it's not nesesary a bad idea, but i don't agree that it would make the game better (different but not beter).
Gavan said:
Actually, to add to this and that, John, one of the other things to come of that SCAR episode was the realization that, should you try to run from Scar, you'll be dead.
Now THAT is not something that holds any truth in VO. How many time have you (and others, including me) managed to book it without a scratch?
These types of changes would definately help with that. If we could make it so that not only would fighting be more dangerous, but once your into a fight, your in. Should you run you will probably die. People wouldn't be so quick to hop into a fight unless they really committed to it.
Here goes:
FACTS:
Ship speeds need to drop dramatically, in order to make people have to choose their fights more wisely.
We want more tactic-based combat.
IDEAS:
Okay, I know this has been said in the past, yadda yadda yadda, but we can solve all these problems with ONE OR TWO ADDITIONS.
To put it simply, we need shields.
My idea is that we could have one little hotkey. While it's inactive, ships are practically made of tissue paper. One or two shots, and you're down for the count.
However, while they're on.... They bring the ships back up to their current armor point levels, BUT they remove boost ability, or at least put a even bigger drain on the system while both are active. This would make it so that people who enter fights would have to choose between turning tail and leaving themselves open to attack, and sticking with it and being able to defend themselves.
It wouldn't even have to be every ship that got this treatment, just the military ships. Trader ships could still keep their defensive abilities while remaining able to boost out of tough situations. It would also make the line between trader ships and military ships more distinct, which will become important once the playerbase gets larger.
actualy if you want more BSG like combat you should either cut all ships armor by a steep percentage (50% or more) or increase all weapon damage by a similar amount. the reason the fights end so fast in BSG is because one burst from a viper's weapons cripples or destroyes a raider (and vise versa). this would also make ambushes and tactics more effective because well, your targets die easier.
as far as reducing autoaim and ship speed, it's not nesesary a bad idea, but i don't agree that it would make the game better (different but not beter).
Gavan said:
Actually, to add to this and that, John, one of the other things to come of that SCAR episode was the realization that, should you try to run from Scar, you'll be dead.
Now THAT is not something that holds any truth in VO. How many time have you (and others, including me) managed to book it without a scratch?
These types of changes would definately help with that. If we could make it so that not only would fighting be more dangerous, but once your into a fight, your in. Should you run you will probably die. People wouldn't be so quick to hop into a fight unless they really committed to it.
Here goes:
FACTS:
Ship speeds need to drop dramatically, in order to make people have to choose their fights more wisely.
We want more tactic-based combat.
IDEAS:
Okay, I know this has been said in the past, yadda yadda yadda, but we can solve all these problems with ONE OR TWO ADDITIONS.
To put it simply, we need shields.
My idea is that we could have one little hotkey. While it's inactive, ships are practically made of tissue paper. One or two shots, and you're down for the count.
However, while they're on.... They bring the ships back up to their current armor point levels, BUT they remove boost ability, or at least put a even bigger drain on the system while both are active. This would make it so that people who enter fights would have to choose between turning tail and leaving themselves open to attack, and sticking with it and being able to defend themselves.
It wouldn't even have to be every ship that got this treatment, just the military ships. Trader ships could still keep their defensive abilities while remaining able to boost out of tough situations. It would also make the line between trader ships and military ships more distinct, which will become important once the playerbase gets larger.
Renegade xxRIPxx:
the hog is decent with megapos, plasmadevs, gausses, suns, jacks...
I love this. The megaposi is a fairly good PvP gun, I personally dislike screamers but they aren't terrible, but have you ever tried using plasmadevs in PvP? and in case you didn't notice, GAUSS CANNONS, AND SUNFLARES ARE SMALL WEAPONS. If you don't put anything in the large port, what do you have other than a LARGER, SLOWER CENTURION?
It doesn't need the agt...
So how often do you fly the hog? And I notice that you didn't mention the gatling cannon. If the hog doesn't need the AGT, then couldn't you say that logically, it should be fine with the gatling cannon? Try it some time.
the agt is more something for ships like centaurs and rags. And if the hog should mounth the agt, it should at least be as heavy as mounting a sunflare and a plasmadev if not even heavier...
Well, I can say for certain that any vestiges of respect that I may possibly have had for you are completely gone. You sound incredibly stupid making that point when THE AGT IS ALREADY HEAVIER THAN EVERY WEAPON IN THE GAME EXCEPT FOR: THE ADVANCED RAIL, THE PROXIMITY AND LIGHTNING MINE LAUNCHERS, AND THE TWO SWARM MISSILE LAUNCHERS.
Not to mention that the hog is still priceless as convoyguardian with its high cruisespeed.
Well I'll give you that, but what good is a convoy guardian if it can't defend the convoy?
the hog is decent with megapos, plasmadevs, gausses, suns, jacks...
I love this. The megaposi is a fairly good PvP gun, I personally dislike screamers but they aren't terrible, but have you ever tried using plasmadevs in PvP? and in case you didn't notice, GAUSS CANNONS, AND SUNFLARES ARE SMALL WEAPONS. If you don't put anything in the large port, what do you have other than a LARGER, SLOWER CENTURION?
It doesn't need the agt...
So how often do you fly the hog? And I notice that you didn't mention the gatling cannon. If the hog doesn't need the AGT, then couldn't you say that logically, it should be fine with the gatling cannon? Try it some time.
the agt is more something for ships like centaurs and rags. And if the hog should mounth the agt, it should at least be as heavy as mounting a sunflare and a plasmadev if not even heavier...
Well, I can say for certain that any vestiges of respect that I may possibly have had for you are completely gone. You sound incredibly stupid making that point when THE AGT IS ALREADY HEAVIER THAN EVERY WEAPON IN THE GAME EXCEPT FOR: THE ADVANCED RAIL, THE PROXIMITY AND LIGHTNING MINE LAUNCHERS, AND THE TWO SWARM MISSILE LAUNCHERS.
Not to mention that the hog is still priceless as convoyguardian with its high cruisespeed.
Well I'll give you that, but what good is a convoy guardian if it can't defend the convoy?