Hehe, I too had forgotten about this thread. But, this is indeed the right place for futher discussion of the subject. And by further, I mean, having read the whole thread, you have something new to add.

In furtherance of the investigation of this subject, I just set all the new missions on the test server to create only Behemoth flying NPCs. Moth Pirates, Moth Escorts, Moth Traders, Moth Guards, Moth Miners, and an All-Moth HiveHunt force. It's Moth Sunday! (and monday morning). They all have the same weapons, but only the traders should be carrying cargo, and they have a few differences in personality (aggression, bravery, etc). I could have made all the Hive ships Moths too, but I think that would have been going too far ;)

If anyone would actually like to do serious investigation using this, I could create different weapons loadouts and cargo. Unfortunately, what I can't do (without a compatibility-breaking client-update), is actually change any of the things you'd associate with 'nerfing': top-speed, thrust, mass, spin-torque or armor.

I read all this once... but don't have time to do it again this time. So I'll keep my stance that the moth shbould remain in its current role, but with reduced and varying ability - increased vulnerability.

Yes, we want a slower, heavier, more prone ship to escort or pirate, but that ship should not be the moth... it should be bigger, and it should be different in design...

I had pointed out in (I beliebe this) as well as another earlier thread the possibility of a commercial capital transport, and I think that is definately the solution to the moth and the activities of defence and piracy.

((from other thread: on the subject of varients (for the sake of further argument)))

Ideally, we would have different varients - a heavy, slow, well-armored one with a larger hold (say, 130u?) which would need escorts in grey, and perhaps a lighter, faster, less-armored, less efficient one with only 1 L-port and 100u of cargo, which would be able to hold its own and escape in grey, but wouldn't be rewarding in bulk missions.

Consider:

Behemoth MKI
Basic
Level: -/-/-/8/4
Armor: 35000
Cargo: 120cu
Weapons: 2 large ports
Mass: 30000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 500 N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 18.0 Nm
Turbo Speed: 180 m/s
Turbo Energy: 50/sec

Behemoth MK II
Heavy Hauler
Level: -/-/-/10/4
Armor: 60000
Cargo: 140cu
Weapons: 2 large ports
Mass: 32000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 550 N
Max Speed: 60 m/s
Spin Torque: 17.5 Nm
Turbo Speed: 150 m/s
Turbo Energy: 50/sec

Behemoth MK III
Light Varient
Level: -/-/-/9/4
Armor: 25000
Cargo: 100cu
Weapons: 1 large ports
Mass: 27000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 500 N
Max Speed: 70 m/s
Spin Torque: 18.5 Nm
Turbo Speed: 190 m/s
Turbo Energy: 50/sec

Tunguska Mining Behemoth
Mining Varient
Faction: +700 Tunguska
Level: 4/-/4/9/6
Armor: 40000
Cargo: 120cu
Weapons: 2 large ports, 1 small port
Mass: 32000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 550 N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 19.0 Nm
Turbo Speed: 170 m/s
Turbo Energy: 55/sec

I realize that there is a *lot* of variation there, but that should be a good thing, not bad. Each would have a distinct role, and each would be less overall-uber than the current moth; while the variations in cost/benefit areas are great, the overall balance should be about the same.

For reference against the current moth, see:
http://www.vo-wiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Behemoth

I like it cunjo.
I like it alot.

the mining moth would be used all the time, it has the best stats.

just, look at them for a minute. you'rll see.

Yea give the mining moth less armor and less CU.

I'm thinkin 110 CU

I had intended the main drawback of the mining moth to be the drain (non-infiniboost), though I think you're right in that it could do with a bit more armor taken off (hadn't intended it to be given more CU than the heavy either - fixed)

I gave it 120 now to keep it competitive (don't want it lower than the MKI), though with the loss of infiniboost and reduced speed, it should be pretty much fodder in grey space.

Sounds good, but don't give Tung ANOTHER ship

okay, fair enough, make the moth available at trade license 3 or something, just so we *never* have to see another ship in the game. :-)

I wish to call this thread basically finished (especially the many varient postings) and wish the horse beating to stop. The only reasonable addition I see left is to have a voting something on varients and their stats.

I agree with terje, levels won't balance these ships. And trade 9 is nothing special.

People will just get this ship, and then never fly any other one again.

Shape:
I still fly my 'taur... and that's with the currently (almost) invincible moth. If more thrust-nerfing is needed to make it less desireable (it's hard to say how it will *really* behave, given only numbers), then thrust nerfage across the board can do that.

Smit:
TUNG OWN YER SORRY ARSE
Tung can always use another ship... it's what makes them a destination in the universe.

*Bump* This is where moth variant suggestions should go.

Except now they HAVE been nerfed as per the first post.

I miss my old moth A LOT!! And look forward to at least some kind of variation appearing that will let me resume the exciting unarmed solo mining in bot sectors missions I used to do. Oh I forgot. This is apparently a combat game. :-)

yeah that's good stuff there cunjo - pretty much what I was thinking too :)

Behemoth MKI
Basic
Level: -/-/-/8/4
Armor: 20,000
Cargo: 120cu
Weapons: 2 large ports
Mass: 30000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 500 N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 19.0 Nm
Turbo Speed: 160 m/s
Turbo Energy: 50/s

Behemoth MK II
Light Varient
Level: 8/-/-/8/4
Armor: 10,000
Cargo: 120cu
Weapons: 2 large ports
Mass: 27,000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 500 N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 7.0 Nm
Turbo Speed: 160 m/s
Turbo Energy: 50/s

Behemoth MK III
Armored Varient
Level: 8/-/8/8/4
Armor: 60,000
Cargo: 120cu
Weapons: 2 large ports
Mass: 90,000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 550 N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 7.0 Nm
Turbo Speed: 140
Turbo Energy: 60/s

Behemoth MK IV
Cargo Varient
Level: 8/-/8/10/4
Armor: 60,000
Cargo: 240cu
Weapons: 2 large ports
Mass: 180,000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 650 N
Max Speed: 45 m/s
Spin Torque: 19.0 Nm
Turbo Speed: 100
Turbo Energy: 70/s

(Pick a faction) Mining Behemoth
Mining Varient
Faction: +800
Level: -/-/-/8/8
Armor: 20,000
Cargo: 120cu
Weapons: 1 large port, 1 small port
Mass: 32,000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 550 N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 19.0 Nm
Turbo Speed: 140 m/s
Turbo Energy: 60/s

(Pick a faction) Corprate Racer Behemoth
Specilized Varient (Bare Frame Model)
Faction: +800
Level: 8/-/-/8/4
Armor: 6,500
Cargo: 120cu
Weapons: none
Mass: 20,000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 500 N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 7.0 Nm
Turbo Speed: 160 m/s
Turbo Energy: 50/s

(Pick a faction) Battle Behemoth
Advanced Varient
Faction: +800
Level: 8/8/8/8/4
Armor: 25,000
Cargo: 30cu
Weapons: 2 Large Ports
Mass: 18,000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 550 N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 19.0 Nm
Turbo Speed: 140 m/s
Turbo Energy: 60/s

Noone would use the Mining Behemoth. Not many people would sacrifice the second Large port for a Small port (for the scanner). :S

I'm not so sure. It is supposed to be slightly more nimble than a regular moth so it can thread it's way between to roids. All of my moth variants have a place, but i don't think any of them will put the moth1 out of business.

TerribleCabbage's right; two beams are exponentially better than a single one, and is the main reason the Tung maud is seldom used. One beam heats up the roid much too quickly when compared to two beams, in terms of mined ore.

Well, I'm trying to make every version have some kind of handicap vs mk1. how about this.

(Pick a faction) Mining Behemoth
Mining Varient
Faction: +800
Level: -/-/-/8/8
Armor: 10,000
Cargo: 120cu
Weapons: 2 large port, 1 small port
Mass: 30,000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 650 N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 7.0 Nm
Turbo Speed: 100 m/s
Turbo Energy: 70/s

So, where does the TPG NPC-piloted "Behemoth Heavy" variant that I spied earlier this evening fall in the grand scheme of things?