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Check out new thread, tumblemonster.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/12108#147244
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/12108#147244
>>"Why not have the battery drain increase proportionally to the load?"<<
Because the acceleration and maneuverability already decrease inverse proportionally to the load when the thrust is constant. Unless you want to make the thrust increase to compensate, making it faster and more maneuverable (and a thrust increase is the only thing that would really affect the drain anyway), then having it drain more doesn't make sense.
and I know that having a faster, more agile moth is a worse thing than having a low-drain moth.
IMHO, most of the special (Heavy, Mining) moths should have 55 drain (maybe 60 for the heavy), eliminating infiniturbo unconditionally.
Because the acceleration and maneuverability already decrease inverse proportionally to the load when the thrust is constant. Unless you want to make the thrust increase to compensate, making it faster and more maneuverable (and a thrust increase is the only thing that would really affect the drain anyway), then having it drain more doesn't make sense.
and I know that having a faster, more agile moth is a worse thing than having a low-drain moth.
IMHO, most of the special (Heavy, Mining) moths should have 55 drain (maybe 60 for the heavy), eliminating infiniturbo unconditionally.
Under no circumstances should a behemoth have 3L ports. For the last time it's a trader not a bomber. Not even the ragnarok, a "heavy bomber", has 3L ports! If VO is going to break ground by giving a ship a 3rd L-port I am convinced it should be a new bomber model.
Cunjo is right about turbo drain, however. Acceleration already decreases proportionately to mass. If drain were also increased it would be a double penalty.
Cunjo is right about turbo drain, however. Acceleration already decreases proportionately to mass. If drain were also increased it would be a double penalty.
hmmm...
All moth varients have the same engine, MkII, III and VI have additional armor (and weight) and are thus slower. Let the player decide if he wants speed or armor :)
--Harpo
All moth varients have the same engine, MkII, III and VI have additional armor (and weight) and are thus slower. Let the player decide if he wants speed or armor :)
--Harpo
A little late in the game, but I blame that on the fever that's been keepin me bedlocked for the past week...
Perhaps a ship such as the behemoth was never meant to be a single-pilot ship. It obviously cannot protect itself well, and with either lowered armour or less speed, it will not be able to escape either. But escorts doesn't seem to be the perfect solution either: many believes the pirates could just target the moth and knock it out before the escorts would have had time to drive them off.
Wouldn't it be possible to install one or two blaster turrets on the moth, and have other players man them? Hopefully, this still wouldn't make the moth a viable combat ship (blaster fire can be dodged, but in a dogfight, a moth would still be an incredibly easy target to hit), but still give it enough resources to hold the pirates at bay while making it's escape.
This would tie in well with the idea of having ships of many different sizes and crew numbers (small capships, corvettes, frigates, etc), and perhaps justify the existence of the moth better.
And, if there are no players present to man the turrets, perhaps NPCs could be hired, blending in nicely with the new economy, giving us another use for our money, fitting together well with the interchangeability of player and npcs thing, and generally leading to a happier and brighter universe.
(EDIT: I for one has always liked the idea of a ship so tough that no single pirate could take it down. Why SHOULDN'T someone make a ship like this? Seems only perfectly reasonable they should. However, it should be *horribly* expensive. Sounds perhaps only like a way of displacing the problem, but if the moth was *horribly* expensive, meaning loosing one would be a economical disaster, players would not always use them.)
Perhaps a ship such as the behemoth was never meant to be a single-pilot ship. It obviously cannot protect itself well, and with either lowered armour or less speed, it will not be able to escape either. But escorts doesn't seem to be the perfect solution either: many believes the pirates could just target the moth and knock it out before the escorts would have had time to drive them off.
Wouldn't it be possible to install one or two blaster turrets on the moth, and have other players man them? Hopefully, this still wouldn't make the moth a viable combat ship (blaster fire can be dodged, but in a dogfight, a moth would still be an incredibly easy target to hit), but still give it enough resources to hold the pirates at bay while making it's escape.
This would tie in well with the idea of having ships of many different sizes and crew numbers (small capships, corvettes, frigates, etc), and perhaps justify the existence of the moth better.
And, if there are no players present to man the turrets, perhaps NPCs could be hired, blending in nicely with the new economy, giving us another use for our money, fitting together well with the interchangeability of player and npcs thing, and generally leading to a happier and brighter universe.
(EDIT: I for one has always liked the idea of a ship so tough that no single pirate could take it down. Why SHOULDN'T someone make a ship like this? Seems only perfectly reasonable they should. However, it should be *horribly* expensive. Sounds perhaps only like a way of displacing the problem, but if the moth was *horribly* expensive, meaning loosing one would be a economical disaster, players would not always use them.)
i don't know
on one hand: i think once player owned and operated cap ships are around the moth wouln't be a problem (mpth vs beam cannon, i'd bet on the beam cannon).
BUT
on the other hand: the moth never struck me as an armored ship. part of me would like to see it loose it's weapon ports and be a totaly civilian ship. then armed and armored variants could exist, for more dangerous runs. but those variants would be less common (probably a lot more expencive or require an obscure faction)
regardless i think the moth will take on an extreemly different role once player owned cap. ships begin appearing.
on one hand: i think once player owned and operated cap ships are around the moth wouln't be a problem (mpth vs beam cannon, i'd bet on the beam cannon).
BUT
on the other hand: the moth never struck me as an armored ship. part of me would like to see it loose it's weapon ports and be a totaly civilian ship. then armed and armored variants could exist, for more dangerous runs. but those variants would be less common (probably a lot more expencive or require an obscure faction)
regardless i think the moth will take on an extreemly different role once player owned cap. ships begin appearing.
I totally agree about the capital ships, Lord Q. The behemoth needs the ports for mining. I still like my proposed variants, lol.
Re: incarnate
> Some traders who generally trade alone will find this idea most undesirable. You will still be
> able to trade "alone", but you may want to do it in a Maud or other more flexible craft, or hire
> defensive protection for dangerous runs. The latter option of hiring escorts *will* be
> available before I make this change.
>
> So. Opinions?
You probably already know my response. I am one of those "traders who generally trade alone," and, just as you expected, I do indeed find this suggestion "most undesirable."
If it is to be implemented, I would suggest an additional nation-space-only Behemoth variant with mimimum 190 m/s turbo speed and armor of 45000. This variant could only be piloted in nation space, and would not be able to jump into gray space.
Otherwise, it should be possible to hire multiple Aerna Seekers as escorts, at a rate of 1000 credits per seeker, with no upper limit on the total number of escorts. It should also be possible to reassign any seekers purchased after mission completion to other missions without extra charge.
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
> Some traders who generally trade alone will find this idea most undesirable. You will still be
> able to trade "alone", but you may want to do it in a Maud or other more flexible craft, or hire
> defensive protection for dangerous runs. The latter option of hiring escorts *will* be
> available before I make this change.
>
> So. Opinions?
You probably already know my response. I am one of those "traders who generally trade alone," and, just as you expected, I do indeed find this suggestion "most undesirable."
If it is to be implemented, I would suggest an additional nation-space-only Behemoth variant with mimimum 190 m/s turbo speed and armor of 45000. This variant could only be piloted in nation space, and would not be able to jump into gray space.
Otherwise, it should be possible to hire multiple Aerna Seekers as escorts, at a rate of 1000 credits per seeker, with no upper limit on the total number of escorts. It should also be possible to reassign any seekers purchased after mission completion to other missions without extra charge.
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
> an additional nation-space-only Behemoth variant with mimimum 190 m/s turbo speed
> and armor of 45000. This variant could only be piloted in nation space, and would not
> be able to jump into gray space.
I'd need an explanation for this. Why can it warp through WHs in Nation space, but not in Grey space? But as I've thought about it, it clicked with a number of other things, and I'm going to be starting a new thread on wormhole activation. [edit] http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/12142 [/edit]
> Otherwise, it should be possible to hire multiple Aerna Seekers as escorts, at a
> rate of 1000 credits per seeker, with no upper limit on the total number of escorts.
> It should also be possible to reassign any seekers purchased after mission completion
> to other missions without extra charge.
This I like. And hiring NPC escorts is something the new DELIVERATOR code will make possible.
> and armor of 45000. This variant could only be piloted in nation space, and would not
> be able to jump into gray space.
I'd need an explanation for this. Why can it warp through WHs in Nation space, but not in Grey space? But as I've thought about it, it clicked with a number of other things, and I'm going to be starting a new thread on wormhole activation. [edit] http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/12142 [/edit]
> Otherwise, it should be possible to hire multiple Aerna Seekers as escorts, at a
> rate of 1000 credits per seeker, with no upper limit on the total number of escorts.
> It should also be possible to reassign any seekers purchased after mission completion
> to other missions without extra charge.
This I like. And hiring NPC escorts is something the new DELIVERATOR code will make possible.
Re: Beolach
>> an additional nation-space-only Behemoth variant with mimimum 190 m/s turbo speed
> > and armor of 45000. This variant could only be piloted in nation space, and would not
> > be able to jump into gray space.
>
> I'd need an explanation for this. Why can it warp through WHs in Nation space, but not in
> Grey space?
Perhaps the storyline could support it with the reasoning that there is a clandestine trade treaty between the Itani and Serco nations regulating the speed and cargo space of trading ships, and that each nation is allowed special variants on the condition that they be restricted to their own nation spaces.
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
>> an additional nation-space-only Behemoth variant with mimimum 190 m/s turbo speed
> > and armor of 45000. This variant could only be piloted in nation space, and would not
> > be able to jump into gray space.
>
> I'd need an explanation for this. Why can it warp through WHs in Nation space, but not in
> Grey space?
Perhaps the storyline could support it with the reasoning that there is a clandestine trade treaty between the Itani and Serco nations regulating the speed and cargo space of trading ships, and that each nation is allowed special variants on the condition that they be restricted to their own nation spaces.
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
uhm, no, we can't let people hire as many Aerna seekers as they wish as escorts. imagine someone taking out their rev c with 50 seekers as escorts? mmm, carnage. we'll end up with escorts being the main focus of combat.
also, John talked about needing escorts for dangerous runs. those don't exist in nation space. if you keep out of storms, which is easy enough, and you keep to monitored sectors (or empty ones), the moth will be perfectly fine in almost any incarnation (hihi, incarnation). I mean, what do you need 190m/s infiboost and 45K armor for in nation space? botting?
also, John talked about needing escorts for dangerous runs. those don't exist in nation space. if you keep out of storms, which is easy enough, and you keep to monitored sectors (or empty ones), the moth will be perfectly fine in almost any incarnation (hihi, incarnation). I mean, what do you need 190m/s infiboost and 45K armor for in nation space? botting?
>>"If it is to be implemented, I would suggest an additional nation-space-only Behemoth variant with mimimum 190 m/s turbo speed and armor of 45000. This variant could only be piloted in nation space, and would not be able to jump into gray space."<<
>>"'d need an explanation for this. Why can it warp through WHs in Nation space, but not in Grey space?"<<
Haha, that's easy... knock it's armor down to 1/4 of that, and remove it's ports, and I'm sure the players would find their own reasons to not take it out of nation space. ;)
.
Generic, heavy and mining moth varients DO need ports. Mining beams and mines are extremely important to moth pilots, and as such, they should be able to have them. Generic moth should have just what it does now - two L-ports. the mining one should have two L-ports and an S-port.
My argument for having 3 L-ports on the heavy, is that a miner in nation space could make use of the superior gather rate, which would give the moth a role after capships, and it would also allow for better defence.
L-ports are ideal for defense, whereas S-ports are more for offensive weapons. I fail to see how adding a third L-port to a heavy moth would make it some kind of uber bomber, especially since taking one into a combat situation would be suicide (it wouldn't turn or evade worth crap)
>>"'d need an explanation for this. Why can it warp through WHs in Nation space, but not in Grey space?"<<
Haha, that's easy... knock it's armor down to 1/4 of that, and remove it's ports, and I'm sure the players would find their own reasons to not take it out of nation space. ;)
.
Generic, heavy and mining moth varients DO need ports. Mining beams and mines are extremely important to moth pilots, and as such, they should be able to have them. Generic moth should have just what it does now - two L-ports. the mining one should have two L-ports and an S-port.
My argument for having 3 L-ports on the heavy, is that a miner in nation space could make use of the superior gather rate, which would give the moth a role after capships, and it would also allow for better defence.
L-ports are ideal for defense, whereas S-ports are more for offensive weapons. I fail to see how adding a third L-port to a heavy moth would make it some kind of uber bomber, especially since taking one into a combat situation would be suicide (it wouldn't turn or evade worth crap)
Is it just me (and having hauled over 1200cu of helio around last night :P), or do all these figures seem to be a little low on cargo capacity? Admittedly, a moth full of 400cu of phase array or 1200cu of ore IS going to handle like a current moth stuffed with samo... and therein lies a good thing. You *can* fly anything that stuffed around, but it is dangerous as hell and takes forever. 120, 240... just seems too small. Lets really up the carrying capacity, and let pilots decide how much risk is worth the loss in acceleration and handling.
Good point, Dr. Lecter. The Behemoth would most definitely be -quite a bit- more killable holding 400cu of something (I don't think it should be able to hold as much as 1200, however... its just too small for that much cargo, the size doesn't make sense. Holding 1200cu is plausible - but just for a bigger ship than the moth. If you increase the cargo hold, then it become a lot harder to handle, but even with that extra cargo (considering its 400, not 1200), the moth still needs some kind of nerf. I would say lowering the top speed of the moth a tiny bit (15 m/s or so) - and adding 4-5x more cargo space would make traderuns a lot more interesting.
If the moth is made correctly, I don't think adding in another weapon port (or even a couple) would really be an issue. If the thing can't move, its not going to be able to use those ports very well anyways. It makes sense to me that a larger ship would have a lot more surface area to be able to _have_ more weapon ports. But, my opinion on how weapon ports should be done is another matter (in short: you need more specific ports, turret ports, small/large energy ports, small missile/rocket ports, mine ports, large missile/rocket ports, etc). Maybe I should make a thread about weapon ports. Bah - its probably already been done. But for how the game is designed _right now_, it would probably be a bad idea to add another port to the moth. It really would turn into a bomber.
If the moth is made correctly, I don't think adding in another weapon port (or even a couple) would really be an issue. If the thing can't move, its not going to be able to use those ports very well anyways. It makes sense to me that a larger ship would have a lot more surface area to be able to _have_ more weapon ports. But, my opinion on how weapon ports should be done is another matter (in short: you need more specific ports, turret ports, small/large energy ports, small missile/rocket ports, mine ports, large missile/rocket ports, etc). Maybe I should make a thread about weapon ports. Bah - its probably already been done. But for how the game is designed _right now_, it would probably be a bad idea to add another port to the moth. It really would turn into a bomber.
How about a behemoth variant that could hold a very large amount of cargo, but would be very slow and would have an engine that would emmit a signal that anyone could track down the sector it was in from up to 3 systems away.
Everyone knows why I'd like this.
Everyone knows why I'd like this.
>>"Good point, Dr. Lecter. The Behemoth would most definitely be -quite a bit- more killable holding 400cu of something (I don't think it should be able to hold as much as 1200, however... its just too small for that much cargo, the size doesn't make sense. Holding 1200cu is plausible - but just for a bigger ship than the moth. If you increase the cargo hold, then it become a lot harder to handle, but even with that extra cargo (considering its 400, not 1200), the moth still needs some kind of nerf. I would say lowering the top speed of the moth a tiny bit (15 m/s or so) - and adding 4-5x more cargo space would make traderuns a lot more interesting."<<
I can readily agree here - more cargo space (maybe not as high as 400, but somewhere up there ) - would go a long way toward giving the moth a more independant (and dangerous) role.
Instead of having the top speed take a hit though, i'd rather just see the thrust go down, and/or the armor (something with that much capacity should have a bit thinner skin)
I can readily agree here - more cargo space (maybe not as high as 400, but somewhere up there ) - would go a long way toward giving the moth a more independant (and dangerous) role.
Instead of having the top speed take a hit though, i'd rather just see the thrust go down, and/or the armor (something with that much capacity should have a bit thinner skin)
Or the moth could fit the role of super-heavy-personal-trade vessel with 480 cu, but only 120 infiniboost, making it practically REQUIRE escorts.
Back to having hiring NPC for ur moth....
why not have a set of 2-4 bots come as standard with the moth revision u buy, these dont have to act as guardians to ur moth but could act as chaff to distract missiles and rockets and help prevent getting a lock on to ur ship. have them buzzing round!!!
Then on top of this u could hire NPC to protect ur ship as such, or ur local hero type wannabes.
As for moth tweaks, increase hold size definatley, slow it down make it impossible to handle and park... this way you can make it invaluable to hire actual people. Their job wouldn't have to be to protect ur ship but tell u where to plot ur course to empty space to avoid getting into trouble..... whilst they tie up the trouble.
why not have a set of 2-4 bots come as standard with the moth revision u buy, these dont have to act as guardians to ur moth but could act as chaff to distract missiles and rockets and help prevent getting a lock on to ur ship. have them buzzing round!!!
Then on top of this u could hire NPC to protect ur ship as such, or ur local hero type wannabes.
As for moth tweaks, increase hold size definatley, slow it down make it impossible to handle and park... this way you can make it invaluable to hire actual people. Their job wouldn't have to be to protect ur ship but tell u where to plot ur course to empty space to avoid getting into trouble..... whilst they tie up the trouble.
Person, http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/12129#147551 . Note that at 240 cu and 120 infiniboost, the Behemoth would still have nearly 3 times the cargo hauling capacity of the high cu Marauders (which we all know rarely get to their top speed) and over 3.5 times the hauling capacity of any Centaur. 240 cu should be PLENTY of cargo space.
No, zardos6, it would be terribly impractical to have bots come with ship purchases of any sort. The mission system is supposed to handle this (eventually).
No, zardos6, it would be terribly impractical to have bots come with ship purchases of any sort. The mission system is supposed to handle this (eventually).
*Bump* Since people have brought up the 'moth again and this is supposed to be the damn 'moth thread.