Forums » Suggestions
It would be nice to see a greater variance in price between ship classes than ship variants, with a few exceptions of course (like the revC, ec-107, ATX etc.) with a progressive, geometric price increase between classes.
For example:
EC-Series ~ 1,000cr
Centurion ~ 7,000cr (1s port variants)
Vulture ~ 20,000cr
Warthog ~ 25,000cr
Atlas ~ 30,000cr
Wraith ~ 40,000cr
Hornet ~ 60,000cr
Centaur ~ 100,000cr
Ragnarok ~ 120,000cr
Marauder ~ 200,000cr (with a buff; it needs it)
Valkyrie ~ 300,000cr (also slightly buffed...?)
Prometheus ~ 350,000cr
Behemoth ~ 600,000cr (top speed: 170 m/s)
But also a greater variance in widget prices. Once you have enough credits it would be nice to work your way into trading some truly lucrative routes with rare, 5-10kcr/cu widgets. Therefore the progression of ships in terms of time spent trading to acquire is in actuality more linear. More expensive widgets would also make pirating a more profitable trade.
Also keep in mind that you could probably divide 1-man ships into three classes:
Fighters, Bombers, Transports
With some crossovers obviously. Ship cost should be proportionate to how well a ship performs its designed role. Just because a bomber falls to a fighter in 1v1 combat, that doesn't mean it should cost less.
For example:
EC-Series ~ 1,000cr
Centurion ~ 7,000cr (1s port variants)
Vulture ~ 20,000cr
Warthog ~ 25,000cr
Atlas ~ 30,000cr
Wraith ~ 40,000cr
Hornet ~ 60,000cr
Centaur ~ 100,000cr
Ragnarok ~ 120,000cr
Marauder ~ 200,000cr (with a buff; it needs it)
Valkyrie ~ 300,000cr (also slightly buffed...?)
Prometheus ~ 350,000cr
Behemoth ~ 600,000cr (top speed: 170 m/s)
But also a greater variance in widget prices. Once you have enough credits it would be nice to work your way into trading some truly lucrative routes with rare, 5-10kcr/cu widgets. Therefore the progression of ships in terms of time spent trading to acquire is in actuality more linear. More expensive widgets would also make pirating a more profitable trade.
Also keep in mind that you could probably divide 1-man ships into three classes:
Fighters, Bombers, Transports
With some crossovers obviously. Ship cost should be proportionate to how well a ship performs its designed role. Just because a bomber falls to a fighter in 1v1 combat, that doesn't mean it should cost less.
How about income tax?
Aka, every time a CAP ship is spawn, it costs 5% of that nation's population money.
Only logical. The nation needs money to build those ships.
If you're broke, then heck. you're broke and that's it.
(Or perhaps strike force runs after you for minimum payment!!)
Aka, every time a CAP ship is spawn, it costs 5% of that nation's population money.
Only logical. The nation needs money to build those ships.
If you're broke, then heck. you're broke and that's it.
(Or perhaps strike force runs after you for minimum payment!!)
Honesty, I'd love to see ship costs go up. It would do wonders for the CDC, both in terms of giving us more clients, and getting our...less than adiquate...members the swift-kick-in-the-pants to motivate them to get better at REAL PvP. Escorts HAVE to be good to make the business profitable, and so far only a few members of our guild meet the qualifications for the job. I hope, for the behalf of my guild and the RP community, that this proposed 'Price Change' is implemented soon.
-CNH
-CNH
Phaserlight: come on man. 600k for a moth. That is way to much.
From Inc: "None of my posted numbers exceeded 10x, most by a significant margin."
"Centurion IBG 1,685c 65,000c"
I do realize that your numbers were made up but some of your numbers did exceed 35 times the original price. Take the IBG:
1685 x 38.57566= 64999.9871
Like i said before I can see 5 or 10 times more. But, even though its a fake number, 38 times the original price is kinda high.
From Inc: "None of my posted numbers exceeded 10x, most by a significant margin."
"Centurion IBG 1,685c 65,000c"
I do realize that your numbers were made up but some of your numbers did exceed 35 times the original price. Take the IBG:
1685 x 38.57566= 64999.9871
Like i said before I can see 5 or 10 times more. But, even though its a fake number, 38 times the original price is kinda high.
JestatisBess,
don't comapre what the ships curently cost to what the perposed cost is, concider how you would use the ships if the costed the perposed amounts.
For exapmle, yes no one wants to pay more for their ships. but would you still use ship x at price y.
don't comapre what the ships curently cost to what the perposed cost is, concider how you would use the ships if the costed the perposed amounts.
For exapmle, yes no one wants to pay more for their ships. but would you still use ship x at price y.
Yes, JestatisBess, we have a future with more expensive ships to look forward to. No, I do not think it will be much more difficult to make money, it is just that each credit you make will be worth somewhat less -- inflation.
I have come up with some ship prices: http://max.cs.kzoo.edu/~srobbins/digital/VO_Economy_Parts.xls
Look at the far right of the "Ship Costs" worksheet.
BtW, I would really appreciate it if people here would take a peek at my suggestion for and reflection on implementing a crafting-based economy (which is where I got myew prices) here: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406?page=8#141647
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406?page=8#141671
Here is a brief overview of some of the prices:
Player Price: Ship Class
000,000 EC-88
000,624 EC-98
019,901 EC-107
003,474 Centurion MkI
008,934 Centurion MkIII
035,006 Itani Border Gardian
034,470 Orion Rev C
008,271 Vulture MkI
015,397 Vulture MkIII
043,362 Corvus Vulturius
008,363 Atlas
013,968 Atlas Mk II
038,205 TPG Atlas X
014,943 Hornet
042,088 Orion Hornet Convoy Guardian
006,147 Warthog MkI
009,461 Warthog MkII
011,347 Warthog MkIV
023,458 Warthog Mineral Extractor
034,138 UIT Territorial Defender
005,555 Wraith MkIII
031,949 Axia Guardian Wraith
109,654 Behemoth
038,124 Centaur
063,245 Tunguska Centaur Aggresso
042,360 Ragnarok MkIII
Nation Specific Ships
041,459 Corvus Marauder Mercenary
027,831 Tunguska Mineral Marauder
073,729 SkyCommand Prometheus
046,941 IDF Valkyrie Vigilant
Also, I stand corrected (somewhat) on the level of cost adjustment/increase that some ships *cough*IBG*cough* might need.
I have come up with some ship prices: http://max.cs.kzoo.edu/~srobbins/digital/VO_Economy_Parts.xls
Look at the far right of the "Ship Costs" worksheet.
BtW, I would really appreciate it if people here would take a peek at my suggestion for and reflection on implementing a crafting-based economy (which is where I got myew prices) here: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406?page=8#141647
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406?page=8#141671
Here is a brief overview of some of the prices:
Player Price: Ship Class
000,000 EC-88
000,624 EC-98
019,901 EC-107
003,474 Centurion MkI
008,934 Centurion MkIII
035,006 Itani Border Gardian
034,470 Orion Rev C
008,271 Vulture MkI
015,397 Vulture MkIII
043,362 Corvus Vulturius
008,363 Atlas
013,968 Atlas Mk II
038,205 TPG Atlas X
014,943 Hornet
042,088 Orion Hornet Convoy Guardian
006,147 Warthog MkI
009,461 Warthog MkII
011,347 Warthog MkIV
023,458 Warthog Mineral Extractor
034,138 UIT Territorial Defender
005,555 Wraith MkIII
031,949 Axia Guardian Wraith
109,654 Behemoth
038,124 Centaur
063,245 Tunguska Centaur Aggresso
042,360 Ragnarok MkIII
Nation Specific Ships
041,459 Corvus Marauder Mercenary
027,831 Tunguska Mineral Marauder
073,729 SkyCommand Prometheus
046,941 IDF Valkyrie Vigilant
Also, I stand corrected (somewhat) on the level of cost adjustment/increase that some ships *cough*IBG*cough* might need.
I'm all for fixing the economy. But let's remember there are some of us who did not get rich off of BP. Ship costs as high as what has been mentioned would put myself as well as many others out of the fight pretty quickly.
Ghost: which is why I advocate a full money/inventory reset.
JB: 600k for a behemoth would be 10x its current cost, unless I'm mistaken.
LostCommander: those numbers all look pretty reasonable. I think a warthog should cost more than a vulture, however, since it can mount an L-port. I think I give more value to firepower since I know that in the future there will be cap ships and the ability to mount heavy weapons means you will be a more serious threat to cap ships since you can use stingrays, screamers, and (hopefully) Avalons. I'd also like to see an even broader spectrum in prices reaching all the way up toward 1 million credits, with a greater differential between ship classes than ship variants, but that's just my personal opinion.
JB: 600k for a behemoth would be 10x its current cost, unless I'm mistaken.
LostCommander: those numbers all look pretty reasonable. I think a warthog should cost more than a vulture, however, since it can mount an L-port. I think I give more value to firepower since I know that in the future there will be cap ships and the ability to mount heavy weapons means you will be a more serious threat to cap ships since you can use stingrays, screamers, and (hopefully) Avalons. I'd also like to see an even broader spectrum in prices reaching all the way up toward 1 million credits, with a greater differential between ship classes than ship variants, but that's just my personal opinion.
I could accept the prices of lostcommander if he would multiply his spreadsheet with 0.75 (with the exception of the behe and give the mauds a slight boost in their ferryingpotential since by no means is the corvus marauder even worth considering at that price...). phasers are entirely out of proportion for me that is.
PS: prices for the warthog should be higher... or at least somewhat closer to the costs of the hornet (20k) in stead of the costs of a vult. Not to mention that the vult mk4 should be similarly prized as the warthog mk4 instead of the vult mk3 being somewhat equal to the warthog mk4 in price. The hornet in itself isn't devestating, its when 4 sunflares get added and even then you can win from it. And this is already calculated into hte price and disadvantages of the sunflares
PS: prices for the warthog should be higher... or at least somewhat closer to the costs of the hornet (20k) in stead of the costs of a vult. Not to mention that the vult mk4 should be similarly prized as the warthog mk4 instead of the vult mk3 being somewhat equal to the warthog mk4 in price. The hornet in itself isn't devestating, its when 4 sunflares get added and even then you can win from it. And this is already calculated into hte price and disadvantages of the sunflares
last I checked, the Behemoth peaked at 22467 credits. has that tripled lately?
I guess it also depends on faction. I have poor Corvus faction, which is where I buy Moths from, and the prices there are hiked way up. 30k is probably the actual number. (Also consider this: I don't know about anyone else, but I only use a Behemoth for trading, and I have never lost a Behemoth to a pirate. Not one.)
When considering prices, just remember that we are missing a few pieces of the puzzle. If a Hornet is designed to attack larger ships, it doesn't necessarily mean it should cost less than a light fighter. Judging ship costs based on their effective roles is difficult because the only thing we have been using ships for the past year is duking it out deathmatch style in Sedina B8. Not all the gameplay elements are in place.
The numbers I threw out there were only ballpark of course, but they were to illustrate a point. Namely that I think we need a much steeper gradient in ship prices. Making all ships cost about 50k wouldn't actually change much.
I'd like to see advanced fighters and bombers that cost upwards of a million credits, something that you actually have to save up for.
Right now we go through ships like a pack of cigarettes, so it may seem like a daunting prospect to have ships in the 200k-1mil range, but I think this game needs those kinds of ships. Hopefully, gameplay will one day move beyond deathmatch in B8 and there will be missions where you need to save up for a single advanced ship, with credits being the limiting factor. 50k credit ships aren't limiting except that burning through them in B8 would be an expensive habit.
edit: I also think that bombers should generally be more expensive than fighters, since they are designed to be threats to the most valuable asset in war: capital ships.
When considering prices, just remember that we are missing a few pieces of the puzzle. If a Hornet is designed to attack larger ships, it doesn't necessarily mean it should cost less than a light fighter. Judging ship costs based on their effective roles is difficult because the only thing we have been using ships for the past year is duking it out deathmatch style in Sedina B8. Not all the gameplay elements are in place.
The numbers I threw out there were only ballpark of course, but they were to illustrate a point. Namely that I think we need a much steeper gradient in ship prices. Making all ships cost about 50k wouldn't actually change much.
I'd like to see advanced fighters and bombers that cost upwards of a million credits, something that you actually have to save up for.
Right now we go through ships like a pack of cigarettes, so it may seem like a daunting prospect to have ships in the 200k-1mil range, but I think this game needs those kinds of ships. Hopefully, gameplay will one day move beyond deathmatch in B8 and there will be missions where you need to save up for a single advanced ship, with credits being the limiting factor. 50k credit ships aren't limiting except that burning through them in B8 would be an expensive habit.
edit: I also think that bombers should generally be more expensive than fighters, since they are designed to be threats to the most valuable asset in war: capital ships.
I'm new and I agree with having new ship prices. By the time I was 2/2/1/1/1 I had about 40k from killing bots and selling the cargo they dropped. And I could afford any ship that I had a license to. 1000c for a ship?
But resetting the money or ships is not something a new player like me would appreciate. I don't have millions and billions of credits and I would rather not fly a shuttle bus around.
I do however think that a nice price hike EV,EVO ,EVN style would be more suitable. In those games, I would save up for a ship I had my eye on. And when I got it, boy was I happy. It represented the time and effort I put into getting that ship. It was my baby. The ships are pretty cool in this game, but I just don't have that same conncetion with them due to how easy they are to aquire.
But resetting the money or ships is not something a new player like me would appreciate. I don't have millions and billions of credits and I would rather not fly a shuttle bus around.
I do however think that a nice price hike EV,EVO ,EVN style would be more suitable. In those games, I would save up for a ship I had my eye on. And when I got it, boy was I happy. It represented the time and effort I put into getting that ship. It was my baby. The ships are pretty cool in this game, but I just don't have that same conncetion with them due to how easy they are to aquire.
600k for a Moth is perfectly reasonable.
How many moths do you lose? I've got a small army of them because I've maybe lost 2 or 3 in my entire time playing this game.
Especially when one can make a million credits in a night by just looking at the trade report... it only makes sense that the most profitable and foolproof trader ship is the most expensive.
How many moths do you lose? I've got a small army of them because I've maybe lost 2 or 3 in my entire time playing this game.
Especially when one can make a million credits in a night by just looking at the trade report... it only makes sense that the most profitable and foolproof trader ship is the most expensive.
Yes, Ghost, the kind of ship price hike that is NEEDED will likely put many people out of the constant Sedina B-8 brawling very quickly. However, this is a MMO*RPG*, and B-8's current activity does not make terribly much sense from that perspective. However, I agree that it can be fun, and I would really prefer to not simply kill it entirely. I would like to, instead, suggest that an "Arena" sector be set up (perferably with a permanent ion storm) where, if you die in it, you are re-homed WITH YOUR SHIP INTACT (you lose any cargo you were carrying though). Programmatically, this ought to be fairly simple to set up and would be a good replacement IMO for current B-8 activities (i.e. space quake). In the mean time, I would remind people that they could use the test server for this purpose.
The Warthog is relatively inexpensive compared to a Vulture because I have newbie subsidies cut off after LL 4 items, and the subsidies decrease by 15% each level.
I very much agree with Phaserlight that there are several puzzle pieces missing that should affect the final price of ships, the most prominent of which is capital-class vessels. I also agree with tkjode about the value of a Behemoth.
I have come up with a formula for ship credit costs, and have thus ended up tweaking prices a bit: http://max.cs.kzoo.edu/~srobbins/digital/VO_Economy_Parts.xls
Prices are still located at the far right of the "Ship Costs" worksheet.
I would like to throw out the my newbie subsidies do not affect players whose highest license level is 6 or greater, which puts Warthogs into the 20Kcr ballpark.
BtW, I really would really appreciate it if people here would take a peek at the "Crafting: Implementation and Ramifications" thread...
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406?page=8#141647
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406?page=8#141671
The Warthog is relatively inexpensive compared to a Vulture because I have newbie subsidies cut off after LL 4 items, and the subsidies decrease by 15% each level.
I very much agree with Phaserlight that there are several puzzle pieces missing that should affect the final price of ships, the most prominent of which is capital-class vessels. I also agree with tkjode about the value of a Behemoth.
I have come up with a formula for ship credit costs, and have thus ended up tweaking prices a bit: http://max.cs.kzoo.edu/~srobbins/digital/VO_Economy_Parts.xls
Prices are still located at the far right of the "Ship Costs" worksheet.
I would like to throw out the my newbie subsidies do not affect players whose highest license level is 6 or greater, which puts Warthogs into the 20Kcr ballpark.
BtW, I really would really appreciate it if people here would take a peek at the "Crafting: Implementation and Ramifications" thread...
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406?page=8#141647
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11406?page=8#141671
I buy moths in Sedina for 15,000. So lets say the current price for a moth is 15k to 30k. 600k would be 20 to 40 times more then the current price. I think we should all compare projected prices to the current prices. But as some of you have said we should also be thinking how much would I pay for my current favorite ship.
tkjode: I atually have never lost a moth, that i can remember. But like i said most people adverage about 500k. It might be the best ship for trading mining, but if no one can afford to buy it whats the point?
Like ghost said most of us don't have million and didn't get rich in BP. I for one, didn’t. A moderate price increase would be well received but not large price increases.
I propose:
No change: EC Series
2 to 5 times: Mk I
5 to 7 times Mk II
7 to 10 times: Mk II or Mk IV
10 to 15 times: Nation or faction specific ships
This will give most ships a moderate increase that I think most of us can live with. I just think we should start small. We can always go higher if we need to in the future.
tkjode: I atually have never lost a moth, that i can remember. But like i said most people adverage about 500k. It might be the best ship for trading mining, but if no one can afford to buy it whats the point?
Like ghost said most of us don't have million and didn't get rich in BP. I for one, didn’t. A moderate price increase would be well received but not large price increases.
I propose:
No change: EC Series
2 to 5 times: Mk I
5 to 7 times Mk II
7 to 10 times: Mk II or Mk IV
10 to 15 times: Nation or faction specific ships
This will give most ships a moderate increase that I think most of us can live with. I just think we should start small. We can always go higher if we need to in the future.
Jes, the point is that you only buy 1 moth. You save up to get it, then you make obscene amounts of money with it. If you need more money, you sell it back.
I'm amazed people "stock up" on moths as if they were light fighters. I usually buy one at a time, and being a bad pilot I've only lost about four or five, two of them at least to the Hive when I've crashed while in a storm in greyspace, and at least one of those I lost to pirates was already damaged by the Hive, too. Comparatively, the number of moths I've bought for a specific purpose and then sold back is about fifteen.
So yeah, bring on the 600k moths; heck, bring on the 1 cool mill moths! I know I can make them pay for themselves in short order. And it will help decide panicky traders to hire escorts for the really dangerous trips.
So yeah, bring on the 600k moths; heck, bring on the 1 cool mill moths! I know I can make them pay for themselves in short order. And it will help decide panicky traders to hire escorts for the really dangerous trips.
since ships cost nothing, I used to never sell ships if I couldn't buy them back at my destination. I had a standing policy of having 1 moth in each system (I had a designated "HQ" for storage in every system) so I could always count on finding a certain type of stuff anywhere. like a moth ready to go, or a dual rail vult. :-)
it's not like it cost anything, so why not?
it's not like it cost anything, so why not?
JestatisBess, you do have a point about starting small. I had not exactly considered not-going all the way with the first hike. I also agree with Shapenaji -- I would liken getting a behemoth to purchasing a U.S. coastal refinery. jexkerome, we do not necessarily "stock up" on ships of any type. However, whenever I switch activities, say from trading to fighting in Sedina, I leave my behemoth wherever I may be, I buy a transport ship (220+ turbo and <55 turbo energy), and I leave that in Sedina for a warship. Also, say I bring a Valk or a Prom to Sedina, live to need to repair it, and decide at the station that I would like to try out a Hog. Then I, likely, die trying out the new, less-awesome ship and find myself back in Jallik or Initros -- Oh look, I forgot to re-home, now I have another ship in Sedina...
"But like i said most people adverage about 500k. It might be the best ship for trading mining, but if no one can afford to buy it whats the point?"
players may average 500k, but think how much money you spend. I for one have easily owned several hubndred million credits, just not all at once. If i wanted somethiong that cost more than my usual level of pocket change, then i wold save up for it.
on a side note, i usualy don't even sell my moths after i'm done trading. And i always keep a few in systems that i do a lot of trading in. there realy should be a reason to not do that. no one should be hoarding ships the way we all do now.
players may average 500k, but think how much money you spend. I for one have easily owned several hubndred million credits, just not all at once. If i wanted somethiong that cost more than my usual level of pocket change, then i wold save up for it.
on a side note, i usualy don't even sell my moths after i'm done trading. And i always keep a few in systems that i do a lot of trading in. there realy should be a reason to not do that. no one should be hoarding ships the way we all do now.