Forums » Suggestions
Ghost said: Rockets are devastating and unmatched when dealing with multiple targets and friendlies.
Yeah as both you and I experienced last night Ghost... hehe.
And I agree with _Ghost_, flares are just fine 1 v 1, but in group combat, Flares are a contest-ender. Heck I was splashed from behind several times last night by the lovely Miss BUNNY whilst fighting soneone else. One shot was all it took with quad-flare hornet. <poof>
So I suggest that I be made immune to Flares.
And I want to paint my ship black and walk around in stations.
Yeah as both you and I experienced last night Ghost... hehe.
And I agree with _Ghost_, flares are just fine 1 v 1, but in group combat, Flares are a contest-ender. Heck I was splashed from behind several times last night by the lovely Miss BUNNY whilst fighting soneone else. One shot was all it took with quad-flare hornet. <poof>
So I suggest that I be made immune to Flares.
And I want to paint my ship black and walk around in stations.
I think the problem is that "group combat" is considered a series of 1v1s in close proximity instead of a group fighting another group. This is a direct result of everyone doing 1v1s for the so long they never learned/had to learn how to fight effectively in a group.
Group tactics are different than 1v1 tactics. About the only thing that should translate over is the ability to shoot and dodge - a group should fight as a group, not a collection of individuals.
Of course... there aren't enough people to stimulate such behavior. People flip out if they get "double teamed", even if there are others of their nation around, interuppting a 1v1 is considered the worst thing you can possibly do... if group combat really was group combat, so many complaints about this game would be muffled by the mix-up of groups fighting. Support ships would actually BE support ships. Those little gnats with Neut3 stings would have to fly around instead of buzzing about the big guys. Battles would be about flying around people instead of facing the same guy and dancing around his incoming fire. So much would change if we only had groups fighting each other instead of glory driven individuals...
Bleh. Someday!
Group tactics are different than 1v1 tactics. About the only thing that should translate over is the ability to shoot and dodge - a group should fight as a group, not a collection of individuals.
Of course... there aren't enough people to stimulate such behavior. People flip out if they get "double teamed", even if there are others of their nation around, interuppting a 1v1 is considered the worst thing you can possibly do... if group combat really was group combat, so many complaints about this game would be muffled by the mix-up of groups fighting. Support ships would actually BE support ships. Those little gnats with Neut3 stings would have to fly around instead of buzzing about the big guys. Battles would be about flying around people instead of facing the same guy and dancing around his incoming fire. So much would change if we only had groups fighting each other instead of glory driven individuals...
Bleh. Someday!
Perhaps Starfisher missed Jestatis's first two or three "Ultimate Capship Battles" where (at least the Itani) were well-coordinated, organized, and extremely lethal. The Serco capship lasted all of 3 minutes or so. (Nevermind that we outnumbered the Serco by almost 3-to-1)
Or when the Itani strike group jumped en mass in the second capship battle to destroy the UPK Zelor in Latos instead of waiting for it to get to Sedina, surprising the UIT defenders and eventually destroying the Zelor in short order.
That was big fun.
As it is now, I think the most fun group combat should be to coordinate group attacks on the Leviathan in Sedina.
Let's all use ROCKETS from QuadFlare Hornets! C'mon it'll be FUN!
Or when the Itani strike group jumped en mass in the second capship battle to destroy the UPK Zelor in Latos instead of waiting for it to get to Sedina, surprising the UIT defenders and eventually destroying the Zelor in short order.
That was big fun.
As it is now, I think the most fun group combat should be to coordinate group attacks on the Leviathan in Sedina.
Let's all use ROCKETS from QuadFlare Hornets! C'mon it'll be FUN!
regarding the Cap Ship battles, why can't that just be put on a 6 hr timer and have it going constantly, if nothing happens to them after 45 minutes they head home and de-spawn. it's lame to have to have it "hosted" it should just be an in-game thing like npc traders, etc.
Start your own thread John.
[quote]And I want to paint my ship black[quote]
Only Serco should be able to get black ships ... :-P
Only Serco should be able to get black ships ... :-P
eh, I've fought and slaughtered in group combat situations without using rockets. group combat is something one should train on with people you'll be fighting with. BP *should* promote good group work, it almost never does since almost everyone seemed to pack rockets or missiles in heavies to bot.
but, I've done BP in lights with other pilots only targeting players and ignoring bots. it was great fun as you worked hard to actually do group combat, not just empty at the bots and leave.
but, I've done BP in lights with other pilots only targeting players and ignoring bots. it was great fun as you worked hard to actually do group combat, not just empty at the bots and leave.
Leber: Yes, you seem to agree with me completely. I missed the cap ship battles but have participated (and organized) in large battle previous to those... but unfortunately, group combat is the exception to the rule. The vast majority of conflict in Vendetta is 1v1 - and that's why in all these balance threads, the constant theme is that "My ship X can beat all other ships 1v1".
"I think the problem is that "group combat" is considered a series of 1v1s in close proximity instead of a group fighting another group."
Starfisher, I have to disagree with you. You're making generalizations here about the community as a whole. I remember fighting in countless BLAK v Viper battles where the group combat was anything but a series of 1v1s. The Vipers and ourselves worked well together and flew as a group rather than a bunch of individuals. Rockets still owned. In group combat, and I mean real group combat, turn your back on rockets and you're dead unless you're in a prom.
Some people get steamed when others interrupt their 1 on 1 because 1v1 is not group combat. But not everyone becomes annoyed. Being a member of SKV, I've had 1 on 1's interrupted by an enemy who came along to save his friend. I don't complain. I've had my own ass saved many times as well by friends comming to my aid. Guildmates saving eachother. Is it bad form? Only if the 1 on 1 was agreed upon by both parties. If it was just a chance encounter with two people running into eachother and beginning to fight, there's no shame in having another pilot assist you. As more players come to the game, we're going to see more of this.
As for the theme in this thread being my ship X can beat all other ships 1v1, that's not what I'm talking about at all. 1v1 I actually think flares are balanced. It's in the group situations that they become devastating.
Starfisher, I have to disagree with you. You're making generalizations here about the community as a whole. I remember fighting in countless BLAK v Viper battles where the group combat was anything but a series of 1v1s. The Vipers and ourselves worked well together and flew as a group rather than a bunch of individuals. Rockets still owned. In group combat, and I mean real group combat, turn your back on rockets and you're dead unless you're in a prom.
Some people get steamed when others interrupt their 1 on 1 because 1v1 is not group combat. But not everyone becomes annoyed. Being a member of SKV, I've had 1 on 1's interrupted by an enemy who came along to save his friend. I don't complain. I've had my own ass saved many times as well by friends comming to my aid. Guildmates saving eachother. Is it bad form? Only if the 1 on 1 was agreed upon by both parties. If it was just a chance encounter with two people running into eachother and beginning to fight, there's no shame in having another pilot assist you. As more players come to the game, we're going to see more of this.
As for the theme in this thread being my ship X can beat all other ships 1v1, that's not what I'm talking about at all. 1v1 I actually think flares are balanced. It's in the group situations that they become devastating.
Ghost said: As more players come to the game, we're going to see more of this [ganging up on lone opponents].
Very true. Get used to defending yourself against 1 v "N" opponents NOW. And don't whine if some coward comes in and spams you when you've just finished fighting someone with skill and you're damaged down to 20%.
If this thread turns into another whiny tirade about 1 v 1 "honor" and "how to properly fight in V-O", I'll vomit.
Very true. Get used to defending yourself against 1 v "N" opponents NOW. And don't whine if some coward comes in and spams you when you've just finished fighting someone with skill and you're damaged down to 20%.
If this thread turns into another whiny tirade about 1 v 1 "honor" and "how to properly fight in V-O", I'll vomit.
Ghost: Again, that's the exception to the rule. I've yet to see a "group combat balance thread" because it happens so seldom, and usually requires out-of-game organization in order to make it happen.
On the other hand, it's good to hear that some guilds have hashed out some working group tactics. I'm curious as to the "turn your back" comment, since you said everyone fought as a group... turning your back usually corresponds to your wingman or a groupmate hitting whoever you're turning your back to. I won't be an ass and try to lecture on tactics when I have no idea what you're doing, but I am curious. I can remember times when turning away from a rocket user was very effective.
And yes, in group combat, flares are deadly - they should be. They were never and should never be a secondary weapon, as they have limited ammo and high damage. If anything, energy should be the secondary weapon. Unlimited ammo, relatively low damage, and difficult to hit other people with... that about fits the bill for a secondary. Primary weapons are such because they're deadly and effective.
Energy and rockets are completely different animals, and balancing them is impossible. They require totally different flying styles and have totally different damage models - how can you ever reconcile the two? One or the other is always going to be the best. To me, at least, it makes sense to have the limited ammo weapon be the primary, and the unlimited ammo the secondary. If someone who likes the energy flying style better could lay out their reasoning behind thinking rockets should be secondary weapons, I'd like to hear it.
On the other hand, it's good to hear that some guilds have hashed out some working group tactics. I'm curious as to the "turn your back" comment, since you said everyone fought as a group... turning your back usually corresponds to your wingman or a groupmate hitting whoever you're turning your back to. I won't be an ass and try to lecture on tactics when I have no idea what you're doing, but I am curious. I can remember times when turning away from a rocket user was very effective.
And yes, in group combat, flares are deadly - they should be. They were never and should never be a secondary weapon, as they have limited ammo and high damage. If anything, energy should be the secondary weapon. Unlimited ammo, relatively low damage, and difficult to hit other people with... that about fits the bill for a secondary. Primary weapons are such because they're deadly and effective.
Energy and rockets are completely different animals, and balancing them is impossible. They require totally different flying styles and have totally different damage models - how can you ever reconcile the two? One or the other is always going to be the best. To me, at least, it makes sense to have the limited ammo weapon be the primary, and the unlimited ammo the secondary. If someone who likes the energy flying style better could lay out their reasoning behind thinking rockets should be secondary weapons, I'd like to hear it.
K, I see your point.
A couple things to clarify:
"turning your back" happens very often in group combat even when fighting as a group, simply for the reason that you can't keep every ship infront of you. Wingman will not necessarily be covering you for two reasons:
a. The only way to target the person attacking your wingman is by watching him to see who is firing at him. In group combat, you can't always keep your eyes on one person. (What I would love to see is a button that automatically targets the last ship to damage your current target. Additionally, a button that targets your current target's target, but that's another thread.)
b. By the time you see someone attacking your wingman from behind with rockets, they will most likely be heavily damaged or dead before you can do anything about it.
The point I'm trying to make here is that rockets are too easy to use in a group battle. A pilot can be aware of the whole battlefield, but he cannot always be facing every single attacker. I guarantee anyone who knows what they're doing with flares can fire 3 times at a target not facing them and not turboing, hit them with at least one causing him to spin, then chainfire the rest to destroy the target in a matter of seconds.
I understand that flares should be deadly, but even if they are conisdered a primary weapon they are much too easy to use. This results in everyone carrying flares in order to fight in group combat. Take BP for instance. The majority of weapons there are flares and missiles. This is because everyone knows they just need to catch you with a few flares from behind and you're done.
The way to fix this would be to just slightly decrease the speed of flares. Not so much to make them like they were before the boost, but just a little decrease. With the speed they travel now, a blanket of 3 flares spammed (not even carefully aimed really) at a target in group combat will almost always hit with at least one. If they traveled a little slower, they would be more difficult to hit with in group combat.
I remember a situation in a BLAK v Viper battle where I was strafing backwards with FA off, energy dogfighting a viper in front of me. Tramshed, in a tri-flare valk, took his time to match my strafe and line up a few hundred meters behind me. He then pushed his throttle forward, zoomed just over top of me while firing flares at my target which proceeded to explode. This is a kind of tactic I would like to see rockets require. Tactics that require skill rather than just flying in and spamming rockets. It makes the game more fun for everyone.
I'm not saying flares should be nerfed. I just think they should require a little more skill to use. Every weapon type in this game has a certain fighting style that one must practice to become a good fither, with his particular weapon choice. Even the agt requires a little bit of practice to use to its best potential. The problem with flares is that they're so easy to use in group combat that I worry about group battles becomming flare spam wars. I have seen these happening more and more often. Several ships (more than two) begin attacking eachother, most of them are packing flares. The battle lasts about 10-15 seconds with each person unloading their flares as fast as they can. Everyone in the area gets nuked, last one standing goes to repair. Then the few pilots that weren't carrying rockets go equip some so that they can at least kill one person before they get caught in chainfire rockets again. I worry that this is the way group combat is going with flares the way they are.
A couple things to clarify:
"turning your back" happens very often in group combat even when fighting as a group, simply for the reason that you can't keep every ship infront of you. Wingman will not necessarily be covering you for two reasons:
a. The only way to target the person attacking your wingman is by watching him to see who is firing at him. In group combat, you can't always keep your eyes on one person. (What I would love to see is a button that automatically targets the last ship to damage your current target. Additionally, a button that targets your current target's target, but that's another thread.)
b. By the time you see someone attacking your wingman from behind with rockets, they will most likely be heavily damaged or dead before you can do anything about it.
The point I'm trying to make here is that rockets are too easy to use in a group battle. A pilot can be aware of the whole battlefield, but he cannot always be facing every single attacker. I guarantee anyone who knows what they're doing with flares can fire 3 times at a target not facing them and not turboing, hit them with at least one causing him to spin, then chainfire the rest to destroy the target in a matter of seconds.
I understand that flares should be deadly, but even if they are conisdered a primary weapon they are much too easy to use. This results in everyone carrying flares in order to fight in group combat. Take BP for instance. The majority of weapons there are flares and missiles. This is because everyone knows they just need to catch you with a few flares from behind and you're done.
The way to fix this would be to just slightly decrease the speed of flares. Not so much to make them like they were before the boost, but just a little decrease. With the speed they travel now, a blanket of 3 flares spammed (not even carefully aimed really) at a target in group combat will almost always hit with at least one. If they traveled a little slower, they would be more difficult to hit with in group combat.
I remember a situation in a BLAK v Viper battle where I was strafing backwards with FA off, energy dogfighting a viper in front of me. Tramshed, in a tri-flare valk, took his time to match my strafe and line up a few hundred meters behind me. He then pushed his throttle forward, zoomed just over top of me while firing flares at my target which proceeded to explode. This is a kind of tactic I would like to see rockets require. Tactics that require skill rather than just flying in and spamming rockets. It makes the game more fun for everyone.
I'm not saying flares should be nerfed. I just think they should require a little more skill to use. Every weapon type in this game has a certain fighting style that one must practice to become a good fither, with his particular weapon choice. Even the agt requires a little bit of practice to use to its best potential. The problem with flares is that they're so easy to use in group combat that I worry about group battles becomming flare spam wars. I have seen these happening more and more often. Several ships (more than two) begin attacking eachother, most of them are packing flares. The battle lasts about 10-15 seconds with each person unloading their flares as fast as they can. Everyone in the area gets nuked, last one standing goes to repair. Then the few pilots that weren't carrying rockets go equip some so that they can at least kill one person before they get caught in chainfire rockets again. I worry that this is the way group combat is going with flares the way they are.
Heh.. yeah, you're right that flares need a bit of a tone down. I'd say flares should be brought more in line with what they were like in alpha. Drop the speed a bit, drop the mass a bit as well so that they aren't completely neglected, and see what happens.
We have this wonderful test server now - I think it would be cool to have a "test server whoopdeedoo" every time the devs get a chance to touch the weapons and ship tables. You know, temporarily set stations in a sector to sell everything at level 0 and 0 credits, and everyone blast around for an hour. It won't catch many balance problems, but if anything is grossly wrong it should shake out in an hour of mayhem.
We have this wonderful test server now - I think it would be cool to have a "test server whoopdeedoo" every time the devs get a chance to touch the weapons and ship tables. You know, temporarily set stations in a sector to sell everything at level 0 and 0 credits, and everyone blast around for an hour. It won't catch many balance problems, but if anything is grossly wrong it should shake out in an hour of mayhem.
Sounds like a good idea to me. I can't remember for sure but I think the devs mentioned something about putting weapon/ship changes in on the test server first now.