Cunjo,
You have good itani right?
Go get an ibg/valk with 2/3 neuts.
I'll get a prom with 2 flares 1 agt.
We'll see who wins.

[edit] I'm just trying to show players/"Dev Gods" that the amount of skill required to win is not equal when using both ships. I mean it doesn't even have to be equal but its absurdly easy with a prom. [/edit]

[edit AGAIN!]
"Whether people are overseas or not.. if we keep making stuff Faster (weapons, whatever) we're eventually going to run into a lot more of "the shot is faster than I can.. see", which I would prefer to avoid."

Inc,
I don't think players would complain about the speed increase. All you have to do is "adapt". More speed means less reaction time which means keep further distance if you don't have the nervous system. I mean right now anyone can dodge stuff at 200m. If you get hit at that distance, then stop rolling or start switching up your strafe's.

With the increase to energy speed it will be possible to stay out of flares range and pick them off easier. Right now it's "possible", though very time consuming. All the player needs to do is close the distance anyway. This is NOT hard to do even with backrollers and so it won't nerf flares. All that increasing the speed of energy will do, is increase the effectiveness of energy in skillful hands. This won't change the DPS. Only increase the hit to spam ratio.

Oh yeah, I'm not really favoring increasing the energy speed as much as I favor making changes to the rockets. I mean I would PREFER it on a personal note but it has more potential to cause problems. Also its alot more work to change 20 weaps as opposed to 3.

P.S. LOWER THE PROX ON SWARMS! Takes away from the "missile" aspect.
[/edit AGAIN!]

[omg its another edit]
Ok changed the prox on the flares O so slightly.
And the speed.
[/omg its another edit]

YARR!

Err, guass/rev c users get screwed either way.. If you speed up weap speed it wont help bcuz guass rev c users have to fight up close in order to hit... and rockets tear you apart up close (over 5/6ths of ym deaths are rockets..) Only way that helps people who fight up close is nerfing rockets..

Other then that i agree with almost all of kixkizzles and shapes posts..

you're missing my point, shape. You don't -need- to get lucky to win with neuts. A dual-neut RevC with a decent pilot will tear a flare prom apart - no contest. The RevC is too maneuverable to hit with rockets, especially if it stays in close. It is virtually impossible to turbo-flare a RevC with anything havier than vulture.

and don't give me that "you can't get lucky with neuts..." bullshit. you die a lot faster when someone gets lucky with neuts than you do when they get lucky with rockets, and it happens at least as often.

Kix: No, I don;t have a tani pilot - at all. and no, I have no plans of creating one in the near future either.
And no, I cannot fly an IBG or valk, at least not until I find a way of dampening the sensitivity of my joystick or the game. And yes, that is still beside the point.
If you want to test your theory, why don't you try killing my rag with a rocket prom?

I died from rockets for the first time today, and it was only because I was swarmed by them and not expecting it. I still maintain that the only player that is a danger to my rag, is a player with energy weapons, most notably the Neut III, which virtually all IBG/RevC loving itanis seem to still have after a week of our CtC victory's outcome...

Cunjo, I'm arguably one of the better Rev C pilots out there, and I can tell you for a fact that it is not easy to dodge flares, especially not turboflares. I often get hit. And if they can combo me, I'm dead.

Hell, it was hard to dodge rockets back when they were "nerfed"

they moved at 55 m/s, and Amarus would outfit a "nerfed" prom with 2 of them and a screamer (75 m/s if I remember correctly)

He was DEADLY with screamers (10 m prox)

He'd do distance control, and then spiral in with one of his characteristic death-spins, and layout a rocketnet.

Viciousnanite would do stuff like this too.

Now, essentially there is no need for rocketnets, the rockets move too fast. It's all about the first hit, and then comboing the hell out of them.

and what we have now are screamers with a wider proximity that don't use energy.

I'm sorry, the facts don't bear you out on this one.

And if you die fast against someone who gets a lucky neut stream in, then you REALLY need to work on your dodging, no one should pull off more than 2-3 hits in a row on you, no matter WHAT ship you're in.

People don't get lucky with neuts, they outmaneuver you, and when you're trying to figure out which way is up, they finish you off.

I will take an all rocket layout of a prom against your rag, I don't think you have a chance here.

Woah, time out... when did screamers ever have a 10m prox? And since when do they not use energy?

Shapes point is probably that todays flares are as good as the screamers of old.

anyway, I miss seeing good flare nets. today, flares are dead easy to use, get close enough, predict, if you're good you add some turbo but it's not really needed, and boomage. I had an alt that racked up a 3:1 ratio against pretty good players by basically just playing rocket / flare games, nothing else. against an energy ship, you fsck up, you take maybe 2000 damage and that's it, against a flare ship, you take more damage, spin and often die from the combo.

so yeah, slowing down ships *and* flares (a bit more than the 5% of the ships, considering proxy and all) sounds good.

"you're missing my point, shape. You don't -need- to get lucky to win with neuts. A dual-neut RevC with a decent pilot will tear a flare prom apart - no contest. The RevC is too maneuverable to hit with rockets, especially if it stays in close. It is virtually impossible to turbo-flare a RevC with anything havier than vulture."

erm, stay in close? How am I going to do that when you have agt? Rockets don't take energy so you got a full battery devoted to agt.... I can't stay in close against a prom, just in case you haven't noticed (and is quite possible since your not a light ship fighter) a prom flies like a light ship. It's extremely maneuverable for its hit points. And I can't "out maneuver" you at 150m. I can dodge and you can dodge but you still have 3X's my hit points with a prom. You think me coming in close will narrow your odds of winning?

Once you get better with flares you'll be able to take me out with ease.

I just have to add something here. You CAN stay in close to a prom of any varient with AGT's, that's not the problem for a light fighter, in fact that's the easy part. AGT's have always been easy to dodge, it's when they are use AGTs with the rockets at close range that makes it not possible. You dodge the AGT and fly right into the flares.

Yeah john,

also, all they need to do if you start getting within the safety... is back up and fire. If you've waited too long, they'll hit.

the prom does -not- handle like a light ship - if it did, I wouldn't fly it.

Cunjo: think about what you argue, you have no facts your just repeating yourself. "good pilots own rockets" Thats all youve said. I know i own you cunjo when you dont have rockets, would that make me a good pilot...Rockets eat me every time.
AND that is UTTER BULLSHIT that you rarely die from rockets unless you run from em or protest fighting them..

Think before you post...

Actually, it handles just light a light ship, you're just turning too much when you should be using its insane strafing power to aim.

Kix, I think you missed the point of my "shots faster than you see" post. This isn't about nervous system or reaction time, this is about a technical limitation placed by internet latency. For instance, coast-to-coast latency (CA to VA, for instance) is on the order of 45ms (and that's best case), you throw in all sorts of other random internet "weather" problems, and people might well get hit before they even saw a shot fired, because the server will know before they do. That's the difficulty that some of the more remote pilots have run into. Before Icarus stopped playing, that was one of the issues he had problems with, and he was certainly one of the better combat pilots in the game. He was just in England, unfortunately.

I'm not going to make stuff faster, I think that's just a bad idea on a lot of counts. I seriously think we could deal with a lot of these balance issues most easily by slightly scaling back the speeds of everything, by a few percent. But, I'm not willing to jump into that just yet.

inc,
Would a speed increase to energy weapons actually effect players with higher pings? I mean if you don't see the shot does it really matter how fast it was going? Or would the faster speeds increase accuracy and therefore increase the hit % to players with bad pings, thus increasing an unfixable problem?
Just wondering, I really don't know.
<---Wasn't around in alpha.

I say unfixable because I don't think 5% thrust reduction is going to change much for players. 5% reduction isn't going to be noticable to anyone except light fighter pilots. And anything more than that and it'd be way too easy to hit players. Which might make heavy ships more uber and will increase already uber flares.... IMO a 5% thrust reduction will favor the already out gunned and out maneuvered light ships.

Also, if anyone still truly believes in their heart that heavy ships are balanced than please try to fly a cent, vult, valk with JUST lasers. You'll find its much more difficult being on the other end of the gun.

Oh and I got the point of "shots faster than you see", I was just in denial o_O

/givemoney Devs 2c

When suns were 50m/s, I thought of them as tools, not weapons. If they hit, then great, but if not, then the dodges people make to avoid the flare put them in a better position for me to AGT them. I liked how rockets for me were more like covering fire, similar to how grenades can be used to flush out the enemy. Now they're just WMD's.

>>"think about what you argue, you have no facts your just repeating yourself. "good pilots own rockets" Thats all youve said. I know i own you cunjo when you dont have rockets, would that make me a good pilot...Rockets eat me every time.
AND that is UTTER BULLSHIT that you rarely die from rockets unless you run from em or protest fighting them.."<<

Quite frankly, TNA, you need to work on dodging rockets if they eat you all the time. I know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Rockets are not overpowered at all. Aside from swarms, I find flares to be the easiest weapon to dodge in gross-damage terms. (discounting weapons unavailable below 4/4/4/-/-) Dodging flares is a different skill that must be learned seperately frm dodging energy weapons. I can understand if this is where some pilots have trouble with adapting to fighting rockets. To say that they're more dangerous than energy weapons, is only true if the battle between rocket and every is fought like an energy-energy battle.

Furthermore, "rarely" is an understatement. I ALMOST NEVER die from rockets, and have never died when rockets alone were used in an engagement. I proved to shape yesterday the ability of a heavy rag to dodge volley after volley fired from a rocket prom, and if you want me to prove it to you first-hand as well, I'll be more than willing to do it.

PS. Shape, you gotta admit, you had fun with those fights =P

PPS. and Kix, it's very, very difficult for any AGT-equipped ship to rotate fast enough to bring to bear on a light fighter that stays in closer than the flares' arming distance... this is how I am killed almost 50% of the time.

Cunjo,
I can't believe we're still debating whether or not rockets are overpowered! If they were NOT the best setup then WHY do you use them?

I mean seriously that's the clincher right there. If they weren't the best then you would use something else. Fact of the matter is that I have NEVER seen you without flares or an AGT. That's because most of the time that I see you is when we're BP'ing. The time when you want the BEST equipment.

"I know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Rockets are not overpowered at all. Aside from swarms, I find flares to be the easiest weapon to dodge in gross-damage terms."

Cunjo have you ever even flown a light ship? Have you ever taken down a prom with an IBG (the fastest light ship in the game) and 2 neuts? I have used every ship I can think of with an all flare combo. I have been in a tri flare maud and beaten IBG's. I have been in a tri valk, hog jack+sun, prom, atlas, etc. I know how hard it is to take down a prom. I know how hard it is to take down a light fighter IN a prom. Trust me, it's more than just fighting style. All of the flare rounds you fired at me that one fight.... All I was doing to "dodge" them was strafing left and rolling. If ONE of your shots would have hit me I would of died.

"PPS. and Kix, it's very, very difficult for any AGT-equipped ship to rotate fast enough to bring to bear on a light fighter that stays in closer than the flares' arming distance... this is how I am killed almost 50% of the time."

Turn FA off and backup. OR do a 180 and meet your enemy halfway. OR just plain strafe..... Just stop rolling and strafe in any direction. The prom is WAY overpowered when it comes to maneuvering. Also mass pretty much doesn't matter with the prom because of it being a heavy ship. 100kg effects heavies about 3 times less than 100kg effects a light ship. Which is the way it SHOULD be anyway. Not arguing that.

I just want this game to be balanced. If I had an alterior motive I would NOT be asking that flares be nerfed since I'm serco POS. All I would have to do is take a prom and pwn everyone. It doesn't give me satisfaction knowing that I won an uneven fight though. The only time I use a prom is during BP when the XP and creds make up for the easy kills.

Kix,
>>"I can't believe we're still debating whether or not rockets are overpowered! If they were NOT the best setup then WHY do you use them?"<<
I use them because I LIKE them; Things that go boom appeal to me. They are FUN.
I could play the same, pointless card on anyone else in the game and it would STILL prove nothing. (Nerde, Neuts are overpowered - if they weren't the best setup, why do you use therm?)

BP is the only place I use all rockets - and that's only when there are no human players in the sector, because one thing those bots DONT dodge, is rockets. If they didn't bounce all around like jack russel ****ing terriers when you fired energy at them, or if they DID evade rockets, I would use something else. It's not about power, it's about effectiveness.
and AGT is COMPLETELY useless in BP... jus thought I'd point that out.

>>"Cunjo have you ever even flown a light ship? Have you ever taken down a prom with an IBG (the fastest light ship in the game) and 2 neuts?"<<

Sure, I've flown them. They're not my style, and I cannot adequately control them with my flight set. I've explained this a dozen times, and I'm sure I'll explain it again, because it's quite obvious nobody bothers to READ what I say about it.

>>"Turn FA off and backup. OR do a 180 and meet your enemy halfway. OR just plain strafe....."<<

I'm sorry, but backing up from a Rev C or IBG in a rag does not work. neither does strafing at that range. in fact, once they're in close with neuts, your rag is as good as gone. you can try to boost away and turn to bear, but that's a good way to get killed faster.

saved the best for last...

>>"All of the flare rounds you fired at me that one fight.... All I was doing to "dodge" them was strafing left and rolling."<<

So, then why are you arguing that flares are overpoweredand need to be nerfed? you have no trouble avoiding them, and you tell me they're -not- easy to avoid? if you think it's too easy to kill things with them, fine. that's your opinion, and it's in your power to simply choose not to use them.

From your standpoint, "balance" seems to mean making everything the same - eliminating variety in favor of tactical conformity. You want everyone to fight by the same tactical rules - your rules. That's not how the game's supposed to be played - that's boring. stick to the tactics you favor, and let others stick to the tactics they favor, thank you.

"So, then why are you arguing that flares are overpoweredand need to be nerfed? you have no trouble avoiding them, and you tell me they're -not- easy to avoid? if you think it's too easy to kill things with them, fine. that's your opinion, and it's in your power to simply choose not to use them."

Cunjo flares are easy to avoid when your using them... that was my point. You haven't figured out how to hit backrollers with them yet, you don't turbo up their speed, you don't use any of the strategies for flares.

"BP is the only place I use all rockets - and that's only when there are no human players in the sector, because one thing those bots DONT dodge, is rockets. If they didn't bounce all around like jack russel ****ing terriers when you fired energy at them, or if they DID evade rockets, I would use something else. It's not about power, it's about effectiveness.

Actually I've taken down 30 bots with an IBG and 2 neuts in BP before I died. So lasers are effective.... just thought I'd point that out.

"I'm sorry, but backing up from a Rev C or IBG in a rag does not work. neither does strafing at that range. in fact, once they're in close with neuts, your rag is as good as gone. you can try to boost away and turn to bear, but that's a good way to get killed faster."

If you would of read the whole paragraph you would have seen I was talking about a prom.

"Sure, I've flown them. They're not my style, and I cannot adequately control them with my flight set. I've explained this a dozen times, and I'm sure I'll explain it again, because it's quite obvious nobody bothers to READ what I say about it."

I know you can't fly them with a joystick but my point was that you have no idea how hard it is to beat a prom with a light ship so your views are all bias since the only ships you do fly are heavies. Therefore your opinion means practically nothing when you say things like:

"you're missing my point, shape. You don't -need- to get lucky to win with neuts. A dual-neut RevC with a decent pilot will tear a flare prom apart - no contest. The RevC is too maneuverable to hit with rockets, especially if it stays in close. It is virtually impossible to turbo-flare a RevC with anything havier than vulture."

All your saying there is that YOU cannot kill a rev C with a flare prom. You've never actually tried to kill a prom with a rev C. And yes we know you can't because you have a joystick but my point is still valid. You don't have experience being on the other side of the guns.

Therefore your opinions are bias since you just don't know how hard or easy it is flying a light against a heavy.

"and AGT is COMPLETELY useless in BP... just thought I'd point that out."

I'm only talking about PvP when I reference BP.

"From your standpoint, "balance" seems to mean making everything the same - eliminating variety in favor of tactical conformity. You want everyone to fight by the same tactical rules - your rules. That's not how the game's supposed to be played - that's boring. stick to the tactics you favor, and let others stick to the tactics they favor, thank you."

erm, I've flown every ship in the game. I favor the hog with 1 rail gun advanced and a Jackhammer.

What ship do you fly most often? Fact of the matter is that you've pointed out you cannot fly a light ship with your setup and you just don't want anyone taking away your uber flares.

Your "opinions" do not have any ground Cunjo. Once you can take down a prom with any light fighter I will put stock into what you say, though I suggest you stick with the flares.

Oh and I don't mind flares at all... I just don't want to die by 1 good hit followed by 2 follow up shots that I can't control once I'm spinning around like a fiend.