Its funny how this game changes and remains the same. I think the "flares are overpowered; no they're not" debate started before there was a Vendetta, or something, back in the primordial soup. Amazing how it hasn't changed much since alpha.

Yeah Starfisher. I can remember there being some kind of discussion on flare-type weaponry ever since last December.

Personally, Flares are my nemesis. Not so much the direct hit, but the proximity damage and splash radius.

Usually I'll try to avoid flares for a bit if my opponent(s) is(are) using them and get in some potshots. When they get low on flare ammo I'll get more aggressive.

What REALLY annoys me is the flare rocket jock who will fire ALL of his flares at me (and have no energy weaps equipped), miss enough to NOT kill me, and then run. But that's another topic.

Overall I think Flares are fine as-is. They take skill to learn how to use, and skill to avoid. Good.

Lighten rails a bit, nothing else needed with them. If they're lighter, they can be used in defensive combat to be flares.

I mean, the principle of rail guns are light. 2 electric conducting rods and some wire. The ammo is a metal pallet. Shouldn't be too weighty...

(It worked really well when energy>rails>flares, at least when it came to fighting certain players)

This November will mark year two of my exposure to flare debates, and I suspect some of the remaining Ancient Ones from the very beginning of the Test can claim even longer. Flares have always been controversial because to use them requires a totally different flying style than to use energy. Some people are good with them, some aren't. A good flare user is a devastating pilot - pretty much always has been.

I mean, it's COMPLETELY different. An energy duel takes minutes, and a mistake means you take a few hits from whatever. A flare duel can take seconds or minutes - but mistakes get you killed. I can remember learning to fly in the days of Icarus, Serco Fighter 1 (SirCamps, but I think he left again) and Archon/Evhun Cerundir. I died hundreds of times, and fast, before I learned how to fight with flares, and I haven't had such fun since. Energy duels just aren't as fun as rocket duels.

Plus, the "duel" mentality is the wrong one for a game like this. It begs to be a group combat simulator, but there's not enough people on and the culture of the game is all about 1v1 PvP instead of NvN PvP. Which is wrong. The game needs more people. Once it gets them, if it gets them, and battles become group affairs instead of 1v1s, the weapon differences will even out some. So long as we remain stuck in this "Oh, well I can kill you if you're flying X and I'm flying Y" mentality, which we will until the game has more people, weapons balance discussions are misleading and fruitless.

[edit]
Oh, and Piro, you just want to go back to the days when you could easily kill any rocket user with rails ;P ;]
[/edit]

Pfft, i still cna't play fisher. Even so, you must admit that it was some sort of balance to it. I mean, a lot of people that were rocket rammers wisened up when fighting me and when to using tachs and gauss instead. It did break a deadlock of rocket superiority.

rails are fine, make them lighter and they'll be *really* scary to face. besides, I personally think they *are* duelist weapons, and they they should remain just that.

Every person has their weapon preference. I prefer rockets. Especially my Quad-Flare Hornet. And I have been beaten, many a time by energy users, some rail users and , of course, the deadly turbo and unload seeker users. Kix, we just have to learn how to adapt to the tactics, and weapon configurations, of others. I've seen plenty of Rev Cs go down by my hand because they are made of paper, but I'll be damned if I can't say it's always hard to line up a shot when they circle you. Ending my pointless rambling, I will adapt a famous quote and say "Adapt or Die"

Slow everything down by 5%.

Piro: Yeah, it broke rockets all right. You proved that a good rail user was invincible to rockets - really, any other weapon combo, because if you could master rails, there was no way someone else could get close enough to hit you with anything other than rails. :P

From a 1v1 perspective, that's bad, but again - we should all stop this incessant bickering over which 1v1 PvP combo is the best. It'll hopefully be rendered irrelevant if and when more users arrive.

80m/s is too much for Flares. The old velocity was much better. That's about all I can say is wrong with them. Sunflares haven't changed much. They didn't even become popular because they were changed. Perhaps it isn't them that are broken.

"I am rock. Scissors are fine... Nerf paper!"

Kix: Yes, basically, if we increase weapons speeds, people who have longer latency connections will get hit before they know what's hit them. That's undesirable. And it could be true even of people in this country, during bad internet conditions or simply cross-country latency on a less-than-ideal network. So eventually it could become "the devs can play the game, because they're next to the servers, and everyone else has problems" ;).

So anyway, I advocate the 5% thrust decrease. But I think perhaps it's something we could put in place on the test server, and then let everyone try it and see what they think.

Reduce everything not just thrust. That way it remains the exact same just a tad slower. Anything else introduces more balancing issues.

Back in alpha all ships had the same top speed, the only difference was acceleration...

Phaserlight,
The rock is the prom.

Inc,
I will concede to the 5% thrust decrease as long as flares get SOMETHING done to them. (aka I know you decreased the ammo I just mean something "small" like speed decreased by 10 or prox decreased by 5 or something similar)

Oh yeah I had a coolio Idea.
What if with the new UI the targeting system automatically targeted the flares and showed a light red sphere around them showing the detonation radius. This would actually make it possible to dodge "in between" shots fired, instead of just avoiding all flares fired en masse.

/givemoney Devs 2c

Piro:
>>"I mean, the principle of rail guns are light. 2 electric conducting rods and some wire. The ammo is a metal pallet. Shouldn't be too weighty..."<<

heh... not really. the concept may be simple, but the size of the device needed to accelerate a conductive slug or cradle is so great it would be VERY heavy... I mean, the smallest reailgun that could be used as an offensive weapon is mounted on a battleship - what does that tell us? personally, I think they should be L-port weapons...

moldyman:
>>"very person has their weapon preference. I prefer rockets. Especially my Quad-Flare Hornet. And I have been beaten, many a time by energy users, some rail users and , of course, the deadly turbo and unload seeker users. Kix, we just have to learn how to adapt to the tactics, and weapon configurations, of others."<<

you can't fly - your opinion doesn't count =P

Kix:

I'm done arguing this with you. You constantly beat around the bush, repeat yourself, and insult my flying. If you honestly can't listen to what I'm saying, then take me up on that challenge and settle it in game, and I'll show you what a rag can -do- to a rocket-prom. I sincerely doubt that rockets in your hands are as good as you -THINK- they are, and I will be more than happy to prove it.

Cunjo,
I think you have missed the ENTIRE point of what I was trying to direct this thread about. If you can beat my prom with your rag..... who gives a shit. But can you beat flares with ENERGY. My god what does it matter if you can beat me with a rocket rag. I don't care about fighting flares with flares, and if that's the only way you can beat my prom than thank you for reassuring me that rockets can only be fought with rockets.

Wait, hold on a second.

Incarnate: you said a 5% thrust decrease on all ships?

First of all what is 5% on the ship speed gonna do anyway? Thats not a whole lot.

Second of all a 5% decrease in thrust will have a greater impact on the LIGHTER ships because they rely on their speed to dodge.

Third of all wasnt this thread about certain WEAPONS being too powerful and not the ships?

/me is gettin confused and feel free to explain it to me like im a 2-year-old

/me pies everyone immediately O_O

5% decrease for slower play just like in alpha (people liked it better) and yes this post is cuz rockets are to strong and should be DELETED....

Think about group combat here. Rockets are devastating and unmatched when dealing with multiple targets and friendlies. If you turn your back on someone with two flares in the middle of a battle, consider yourself dead. They can just spam the area near you (not too hard to do when your target is attacking someone else) and not only will the rockets detonate near them, but will detonate on your enemies target as well. They will then not damage the enemy's target(providing he is same nation as you), but will still do damage to the enemy thus doubling your already good chances of scoring a hit. It's a little tactic i like to call "rocket bouncing" and works great when a friendly cent is engaged with an enemy cent. Allowing friendly fire would fix this entirely and make it a lot more realistic. It would also decrease the usefulness of flares in group combat, (something that should be done) but that's another thread.

Group combat is really the only area that I think flares are uber in. Now that they ammo has been brought down I think they're pretty balanced for 1 on 1. It's just the big battles that they really stand out in.