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Dear Greenwall,
Stop Trying to prove a point that doesn't (nor will ever) exist.
Sincerely,
Moron #202
Stop Trying to prove a point that doesn't (nor will ever) exist.
Sincerely,
Moron #202
@rin
Sieger cheated to inflate his stats in order to bring attention to Estrian's cheating. He was prepared for whatever resulting punishment and nobody expected him to escape unscathed. I don't hold that against him, especially since it's really not something that hurt anyone else's gameplay, and it ultimately had the intended effect; it shined a light on Estrian's deception and cast shade upon the entire SKV "ethical superiority". Apparently it didn't cast shade for you though.
TGFT abused the /vote mute because they reasonably came to the conclusion, via public chat exchanges by SKV and allies, that SKV had engineered a /vote mute abuse against THEM FIRST. Bojan insists that the devs "confirmed" that most of the votes were not from SKV, a claim I still doubt. But lets assume it's true -- there is no real way to tell if those other non SKV people were acting on their own accord, or if they were influenced by SKV encouragement, or if they were in fact alts of SKV. I don't fault TGFT for being reactionary in this regards given all the way SKV had been treating them (both publicly and privately) up to that point.
Finally, adding the disclaimer to their plugin was huge. They didn't remain obstinate about it until their allies decided to also criticize them, which is what Bojan does in regards to all of his questionable positions. And, as far as I remember, and as far as I can ascertain, Incarnate never suggested putting a disclaimer. In fact, all he did was say he didn't see a problem with the plugin. Perhaps you can provide a link to this "suggestion"? Or perhaps your memory is incorrect and you are relying upon your bias?
Nobody forced anyone to use TGFT utilities, and Lisa (who made it and who had all the control over what was to be done about it) never battled fiercely in support of no disclaimer. She simply decided, after reviewing the discussion that it wouldn't be a bad idea to add. She added it. Matter resolved for everyone but the TGFT haters who can't let go of anything ever.
Contrast this to SKV. Recently Bojan caved in his pursuit of using the devs to cheat regarding station key distribution history because two people who typically side with him, You (pizzas good) and Lecter, called him out. The only other person who called him out on it was kbireta. Those three people don't represent the "community by and large" by any stretch. 66% of them, however, do represent forum supporters whose toes Bojan didn't want to injure out of fear of losing future support.
I don't recall any instances of him doing something that I felt was cheating or extremely shady that we were unable to convince him he was in the wrong over.
All ^ that proves is that you don't think anything he's done or supported has been cheating. And you are, of course, witholding the whole Estrian Prosis PK farming situation. Where Bojan completely withheld any judgement or admission of guilt despite very obvious evidence, which ultimately proved to be 100% correct. From what I can tell, despite you labelling the act "shitty", all you did was give Estrian a light slap on his shoulder; missing was the lengthy admonishment towards Bojan AND Estrian you should have delivered if you wanted to maintain an image of fairness.
Further, you don't call out Bojan's hypocrisy when it comes to complaining about multiple accounts, when it comes to using AnyX, a plugin used (in part) by unsuspecting individuals to spy unknowingly on others, when it comes to supporting encouragement of continuing /vote mute abuse, and when it comes to hiding bots inside of asteroids to cheat detection by station guards in conquerable stations. Why? The answer is clear: you are heavily biased towards anyone anti-TGFT.
Am I biased towards TGFT? Maybe somewhat. But I have no problem saying that a lot of stuff kbireta did was shitty and not in line with TGFT principles. Sieger PK farming was shitty, despite it having a desirable outcome. I have no problem saying that the TGFT utility plugin was a risky play, and can definitely see the concerns (even if they were blown WAY out of proportion). TGFT isn't perfect, but overall they are far from the evil corporate overlords that people like to paint them as. And overall, they are a huge newb-helping guild, who are overwhelmingly non-confrontational.
Ultimately, I don't give a shit if people want to paint TGFT as evil corporate overlords. RP is fine. It's when that RP pushes past the game and into unfounded, and/or overreactive, and/or hypocritical accusations of cheating, real life insults, and unprovoked alt-revealing, which inevitably result in both sucking up Dev time (causing game development to slow dramatically) and good long-term players preferring to leave the game out of complete distaste in the resulting effect on their in game experience.
^THAT is shameful. You prefer a smaller player base and a VO that more or less remains the same, Rin, so I can understand how you aren't really that bothered. I take this position not for TGFT, but for the game itself, and how I want to see it flourish and progress.
Sieger cheated to inflate his stats in order to bring attention to Estrian's cheating. He was prepared for whatever resulting punishment and nobody expected him to escape unscathed. I don't hold that against him, especially since it's really not something that hurt anyone else's gameplay, and it ultimately had the intended effect; it shined a light on Estrian's deception and cast shade upon the entire SKV "ethical superiority". Apparently it didn't cast shade for you though.
TGFT abused the /vote mute because they reasonably came to the conclusion, via public chat exchanges by SKV and allies, that SKV had engineered a /vote mute abuse against THEM FIRST. Bojan insists that the devs "confirmed" that most of the votes were not from SKV, a claim I still doubt. But lets assume it's true -- there is no real way to tell if those other non SKV people were acting on their own accord, or if they were influenced by SKV encouragement, or if they were in fact alts of SKV. I don't fault TGFT for being reactionary in this regards given all the way SKV had been treating them (both publicly and privately) up to that point.
Finally, adding the disclaimer to their plugin was huge. They didn't remain obstinate about it until their allies decided to also criticize them, which is what Bojan does in regards to all of his questionable positions. And, as far as I remember, and as far as I can ascertain, Incarnate never suggested putting a disclaimer. In fact, all he did was say he didn't see a problem with the plugin. Perhaps you can provide a link to this "suggestion"? Or perhaps your memory is incorrect and you are relying upon your bias?
Nobody forced anyone to use TGFT utilities, and Lisa (who made it and who had all the control over what was to be done about it) never battled fiercely in support of no disclaimer. She simply decided, after reviewing the discussion that it wouldn't be a bad idea to add. She added it. Matter resolved for everyone but the TGFT haters who can't let go of anything ever.
Contrast this to SKV. Recently Bojan caved in his pursuit of using the devs to cheat regarding station key distribution history because two people who typically side with him, You (pizzas good) and Lecter, called him out. The only other person who called him out on it was kbireta. Those three people don't represent the "community by and large" by any stretch. 66% of them, however, do represent forum supporters whose toes Bojan didn't want to injure out of fear of losing future support.
I don't recall any instances of him doing something that I felt was cheating or extremely shady that we were unable to convince him he was in the wrong over.
All ^ that proves is that you don't think anything he's done or supported has been cheating. And you are, of course, witholding the whole Estrian Prosis PK farming situation. Where Bojan completely withheld any judgement or admission of guilt despite very obvious evidence, which ultimately proved to be 100% correct. From what I can tell, despite you labelling the act "shitty", all you did was give Estrian a light slap on his shoulder; missing was the lengthy admonishment towards Bojan AND Estrian you should have delivered if you wanted to maintain an image of fairness.
Further, you don't call out Bojan's hypocrisy when it comes to complaining about multiple accounts, when it comes to using AnyX, a plugin used (in part) by unsuspecting individuals to spy unknowingly on others, when it comes to supporting encouragement of continuing /vote mute abuse, and when it comes to hiding bots inside of asteroids to cheat detection by station guards in conquerable stations. Why? The answer is clear: you are heavily biased towards anyone anti-TGFT.
Am I biased towards TGFT? Maybe somewhat. But I have no problem saying that a lot of stuff kbireta did was shitty and not in line with TGFT principles. Sieger PK farming was shitty, despite it having a desirable outcome. I have no problem saying that the TGFT utility plugin was a risky play, and can definitely see the concerns (even if they were blown WAY out of proportion). TGFT isn't perfect, but overall they are far from the evil corporate overlords that people like to paint them as. And overall, they are a huge newb-helping guild, who are overwhelmingly non-confrontational.
Ultimately, I don't give a shit if people want to paint TGFT as evil corporate overlords. RP is fine. It's when that RP pushes past the game and into unfounded, and/or overreactive, and/or hypocritical accusations of cheating, real life insults, and unprovoked alt-revealing, which inevitably result in both sucking up Dev time (causing game development to slow dramatically) and good long-term players preferring to leave the game out of complete distaste in the resulting effect on their in game experience.
^THAT is shameful. You prefer a smaller player base and a VO that more or less remains the same, Rin, so I can understand how you aren't really that bothered. I take this position not for TGFT, but for the game itself, and how I want to see it flourish and progress.
oh god the drama is real
I can be reasoned with about anything I do or intend to do. If someone presents a valid argument that my actions or intentions are wrong, I will back down. It does not take 72 threads and 264 posts documenting I am a cheating scum that does all imaginable and unimaginable immoral and unethical stuff in VO, for me 1 valid argument is enough.
That cannot be said for TGFT inner circle. They will fight and oppose any and all valid arguments, undeniable facts and examples until the cows come home or... until devs make them change their behavior.
Even then, they will try to sneak in some other new cheat hoping they won't get caught again.
It's all summarized in this legendary statement from TGFT Commander Ecka Estenk:
We will use any trick the devs allow us to get one over on the rest of you. Shove your ethics.
That is TGFT today.
Just to refresh your memory I will quote what Savet posted some time ago:
________________________________________________
"Just for a running list of antics, we have:
1. Sieger exploiting the character nation change by the devs to bypass faction ship limitations, resulting in drastic limitation for nation changes for all payers.
2. TGFT mass spying debacle through a public plugin surreptitiously collecting private player data and transmitting it to TGFT for sector spying.
3. TGFT vote mute campaigns resulting in punitive actions for a large chunk of TGFT.
4. TGFT multi-account station bombing to offset their general lack of conquest ability.
5. Sieger's PK farming racking up about 3,000 PKs (edit: 4000+ by latest count), in what appears to be an effort to place him among the ranks of long-time PVP greats.
Can TGFT just stop being horrible VO citizens and try playing the game in the way the game is meant to be played?"
________________________________________________
Now for some plain and direct answers to Greenwalls accusations:
1. Estrian Prosis is not SKV. His pk stats were removed for entirely different reason then Siegers. If you want the truth ask EP or Incarnate.
2. I have first seen the word Anyx in some comment in RP thread. I have no idea what it is and none of SKV members use it.
3. [syn]noob and Niki have been playing hide in the roid game in B-8 for years. I had no idea that was not allowed. After Incarnate posted that this should not be exploited, I warned all SKV pilots not to do it.
4. SKV did not engineer kbireta vote mute. if in doubt, ask the devs.
[EDIT]
I forgot to add my comment to N. 4. on Savet's list of antics:
4. TGFT multi-account station bombing to offset their general lack of conquest ability.
Should be added - using automated multi accounts with auto-bombing plug in
That cannot be said for TGFT inner circle. They will fight and oppose any and all valid arguments, undeniable facts and examples until the cows come home or... until devs make them change their behavior.
Even then, they will try to sneak in some other new cheat hoping they won't get caught again.
It's all summarized in this legendary statement from TGFT Commander Ecka Estenk:
We will use any trick the devs allow us to get one over on the rest of you. Shove your ethics.
That is TGFT today.
Just to refresh your memory I will quote what Savet posted some time ago:
________________________________________________
"Just for a running list of antics, we have:
1. Sieger exploiting the character nation change by the devs to bypass faction ship limitations, resulting in drastic limitation for nation changes for all payers.
2. TGFT mass spying debacle through a public plugin surreptitiously collecting private player data and transmitting it to TGFT for sector spying.
3. TGFT vote mute campaigns resulting in punitive actions for a large chunk of TGFT.
4. TGFT multi-account station bombing to offset their general lack of conquest ability.
5. Sieger's PK farming racking up about 3,000 PKs (edit: 4000+ by latest count), in what appears to be an effort to place him among the ranks of long-time PVP greats.
Can TGFT just stop being horrible VO citizens and try playing the game in the way the game is meant to be played?"
________________________________________________
Now for some plain and direct answers to Greenwalls accusations:
1. Estrian Prosis is not SKV. His pk stats were removed for entirely different reason then Siegers. If you want the truth ask EP or Incarnate.
2. I have first seen the word Anyx in some comment in RP thread. I have no idea what it is and none of SKV members use it.
3. [syn]noob and Niki have been playing hide in the roid game in B-8 for years. I had no idea that was not allowed. After Incarnate posted that this should not be exploited, I warned all SKV pilots not to do it.
4. SKV did not engineer kbireta vote mute. if in doubt, ask the devs.
[EDIT]
I forgot to add my comment to N. 4. on Savet's list of antics:
4. TGFT multi-account station bombing to offset their general lack of conquest ability.
Should be added - using automated multi accounts with auto-bombing plug in
Also it should be pointed out that there is a HUGE difference between:
1. Muting a single player for being an asshat.
2. Muting the entire roster of a guild to prevent them from coordinating.
It is beyond moronic to compare the two above and insist that (2) is an appropriate reaction to (1).
1. Muting a single player for being an asshat.
2. Muting the entire roster of a guild to prevent them from coordinating.
It is beyond moronic to compare the two above and insist that (2) is an appropriate reaction to (1).
welcome back, joyless.
There was a difference in proportion, certainly. But you exaggerate the proportion in your attempt to paint it as moronic. The entire guild roster of SKV did not get muted. Further, it's not an unreasonable response given the ongoing harassment incurred by TGFT members on the part of SKV / Estrian / Westacular and friends. Prohibiting the coordination of people reasonably assumed to be involved in the reasonably perceived /vote mute abuse perpetrated upon their guild member via an "in kind" measure makes complete sense. A trade of blows. There is no doubt it would have gone the same way in reverse.
Estrian made no secret of muting people from IRC that he didn't agree with. He was also not coy about encouraging /vote mutes against people he disagreed with (rather than people who were actually being abusive in chat) in the time since then, including to this very day.
NEITHER should have happened in a perfectly mature VO, but cause and effect cannot be ignored either. SKV has it in it's mind that they and their allies can do whatever they want, whether it's harass, cheat, or abuse without any accountability, but don't afford the same to their enemies. SKV ethics in a nutshell.
There was a difference in proportion, certainly. But you exaggerate the proportion in your attempt to paint it as moronic. The entire guild roster of SKV did not get muted. Further, it's not an unreasonable response given the ongoing harassment incurred by TGFT members on the part of SKV / Estrian / Westacular and friends. Prohibiting the coordination of people reasonably assumed to be involved in the reasonably perceived /vote mute abuse perpetrated upon their guild member via an "in kind" measure makes complete sense. A trade of blows. There is no doubt it would have gone the same way in reverse.
Estrian made no secret of muting people from IRC that he didn't agree with. He was also not coy about encouraging /vote mutes against people he disagreed with (rather than people who were actually being abusive in chat) in the time since then, including to this very day.
NEITHER should have happened in a perfectly mature VO, but cause and effect cannot be ignored either. SKV has it in it's mind that they and their allies can do whatever they want, whether it's harass, cheat, or abuse without any accountability, but don't afford the same to their enemies. SKV ethics in a nutshell.
SKV has it in it's mind that they and their allies can do whatever they want, whether it's harass, cheat, or abuse without any accountability, but don't afford the same to their enemies. SKV ethics in a nutshell.
SKV is Itani military guild playing by their rules and our rules are public knowledge.
SKV does not harass, cheat or abuse.
SKV shoots Serco nationalist guilds.
SKV shoots pilots with Itani hate/KOS standing.
SKV is at war with TGFT.
SKV allows free access to all conq stations under our control to all neutral guilds or players.
SKV does not shoot neutral guilds or players unless provoked by hostile actions.
SKV does not shoot allied or friendly guilds.
SKV uses ships, guns and equipment provided by the game.
SKV does not use any guild specific or custom plug-ins or cheats.
In a nutshell, SKV is an open book, we have nothing to hide. Can TGFT say the same?
I cannot comment on anything about our allies (Itan) since, as of late, they are back in bed with TGFT so our alliance seems just like empty letters on a paper.
We do fight Serco forces together on occasion so I suppose that instance of what real 'alliance' is supposed to be is still valid.
SKV is Itani military guild playing by their rules and our rules are public knowledge.
SKV does not harass, cheat or abuse.
SKV shoots Serco nationalist guilds.
SKV shoots pilots with Itani hate/KOS standing.
SKV is at war with TGFT.
SKV allows free access to all conq stations under our control to all neutral guilds or players.
SKV does not shoot neutral guilds or players unless provoked by hostile actions.
SKV does not shoot allied or friendly guilds.
SKV uses ships, guns and equipment provided by the game.
SKV does not use any guild specific or custom plug-ins or cheats.
In a nutshell, SKV is an open book, we have nothing to hide. Can TGFT say the same?
I cannot comment on anything about our allies (Itan) since, as of late, they are back in bed with TGFT so our alliance seems just like empty letters on a paper.
We do fight Serco forces together on occasion so I suppose that instance of what real 'alliance' is supposed to be is still valid.
Further, it's not an unreasonable response given the ongoing harassment incurred by TGFT members on the part of SKV / Estrian / Westacular and friends.
The so called harassment consisted of normal VO game play such as shooting at ships, conquering stations, and bantering on 100. TGFT failed to win in those departments. Instead of going a normal route such as recruiting more combat-minded players, they stooped to abusing a game mechanic. Finally, devs got involved and slapped TGFT's hands. Mass-muting a guild was an appropriate and reasonable thing to do, you think?
The so called harassment consisted of normal VO game play such as shooting at ships, conquering stations, and bantering on 100. TGFT failed to win in those departments. Instead of going a normal route such as recruiting more combat-minded players, they stooped to abusing a game mechanic. Finally, devs got involved and slapped TGFT's hands. Mass-muting a guild was an appropriate and reasonable thing to do, you think?
I cannot comment on anything about our allies (Itan) since, as of late, they are back in bed with TGFT so our alliance seems just like empty letters on a paper.
Mainly it's just harpo with dollar signs in his eyes. He likes to build little thingies and sell them. To him green moolah is above everything, even honorability and principle. If Itan is to be back to its old self, harpo and zok need to go.
Mainly it's just harpo with dollar signs in his eyes. He likes to build little thingies and sell them. To him green moolah is above everything, even honorability and principle. If Itan is to be back to its old self, harpo and zok need to go.
Estrian Prosis is not SKV. His pk stats were removed for entirely different reason then Siegers.
lol. for what other reason would the devs reset Estys PKs? c'mon bojan...
lol. for what other reason would the devs reset Estys PKs? c'mon bojan...
Estrian made no secret of muting people from IRC that he didn't agree with. He was also not coy about encouraging /vote mutes against people he disagreed with (rather than people who were actually being abusive in chat) in the time since then, including to this very day.
IRC is not officially supported by the game, and is not part of the game. Is Estrian a [redacted] if he decides to mute people from IRC for no reason? Absolutely. But I'm of the opinion that IRC bots that directly tie in to game chat are a hindrance rather than a help to the game and should be eliminated for the good of the game.
IRC is not officially supported by the game, and is not part of the game. Is Estrian a [redacted] if he decides to mute people from IRC for no reason? Absolutely. But I'm of the opinion that IRC bots that directly tie in to game chat are a hindrance rather than a help to the game and should be eliminated for the good of the game.
@XeraX
Feel free to ask Estrian directly or send email to Incarnate.
Feel free to ask Estrian directly or send email to Incarnate.
@Bojan
1. Estrian Prosis is not SKV. His pk stats were removed for entirely different reason then Siegers. If you want the truth ask EP or Incarnate.
He was, and still has his alt Archeron on your council. Estrian both cheated and wasted the devs time. It's not the first instance of him cheating or being abusive, nor will it be the last. This is not to single him out as the "only" cheater, which he certainly is not. He and I actually were busted along with Westacular abusing a door opened by momerath42, for which we were punished. This is to point out your hypocrisy in regards to the condoning of cheating.
2. I have first seen the word Anyx in some comment in RP thread. I have no idea what it is and none of SKV members use it.
A flat out lie dressed up as naivete. Moving on.
3. [syn]noob and Niki have been playing hide in the roid game in B-8 for years. I had no idea that was not allowed. After Incarnate posted that this should not be exploited, I warned all SKV pilots not to do it.
A flat out lie dressed up as naivete. How would hiding in a roid ever not be cheating?
4. SKV did not engineer kbireta vote mute. if in doubt, ask the devs.
I already addressed this claim.
@Savet
I'm aware IRC is not officially supported. It's still relevant because it's tied directly to the game and speaks to Estrian's typical behavior. I'm of the opinion that IRC bots are net neutral -- as the help in fostering community and assistance is countered by their unfairly benefitting small groups of players, enabling spam and harrassment from outside the game, remote control of accounts and allowing unfair censoring.
1. Estrian Prosis is not SKV. His pk stats were removed for entirely different reason then Siegers. If you want the truth ask EP or Incarnate.
He was, and still has his alt Archeron on your council. Estrian both cheated and wasted the devs time. It's not the first instance of him cheating or being abusive, nor will it be the last. This is not to single him out as the "only" cheater, which he certainly is not. He and I actually were busted along with Westacular abusing a door opened by momerath42, for which we were punished. This is to point out your hypocrisy in regards to the condoning of cheating.
2. I have first seen the word Anyx in some comment in RP thread. I have no idea what it is and none of SKV members use it.
A flat out lie dressed up as naivete. Moving on.
3. [syn]noob and Niki have been playing hide in the roid game in B-8 for years. I had no idea that was not allowed. After Incarnate posted that this should not be exploited, I warned all SKV pilots not to do it.
A flat out lie dressed up as naivete. How would hiding in a roid ever not be cheating?
4. SKV did not engineer kbireta vote mute. if in doubt, ask the devs.
I already addressed this claim.
@Savet
I'm aware IRC is not officially supported. It's still relevant because it's tied directly to the game and speaks to Estrian's typical behavior. I'm of the opinion that IRC bots are net neutral -- as the help in fostering community and assistance is countered by their unfairly benefitting small groups of players, enabling spam and harrassment from outside the game, remote control of accounts and allowing unfair censoring.
Wait...did joyleenwall just say I typically side with Bojan?!
Lol, I missed that insult Lecter, hahaha.
FYI Greenwall, Dr. Lecter and I exchanged more insults during our VO active days then you will ever be able to come up with in your lifetime.
Now back to your bullshit:
1. Archeron plays by the SKV rules. We won't have it any other way. Maybe that is the reason he spent more time playing EP then Archeron.
I am not privy to your and EPs exploits prior to my return to VO, I was away from VO from fall 2009 till winter 2014.
2. As said above, I was away from VO from fall 2009 till winter 2014. My relations with Itan were never very good, some of them never liked me or SKV. Shortly after my return my access to Itan forum was revoked so yes - I found out about Anyx from a recent forum post.
3. Hiding in roids was exploited by everyone - I think I saw Greenwall with his dent inside a big roid in Levi sector (Sieger at one point too) shooting bots at some time after I returned to VO.
If everyone was doing it and nobody was getting fussed about it, I presumed (obviously wrong) that it was something devs tolerate.
[EDIT]
Since I feel you neglected to address TGFT commanders motto posted earlier I will be so free to offer a translation.
We will use any trick the devs allow us to get one over on the rest of you. Shove your ethics.
Translated: we will lie cheat and exploit everything the devs doesn't know it's exploitable or can be made into cheat. If they find out, we will cover our ears, play like we removed our cheats and exploits and find new ways to use those cheats and exploits or make new ones if that fails.
Rinse and repeat.
FYI Greenwall, Dr. Lecter and I exchanged more insults during our VO active days then you will ever be able to come up with in your lifetime.
Now back to your bullshit:
1. Archeron plays by the SKV rules. We won't have it any other way. Maybe that is the reason he spent more time playing EP then Archeron.
I am not privy to your and EPs exploits prior to my return to VO, I was away from VO from fall 2009 till winter 2014.
2. As said above, I was away from VO from fall 2009 till winter 2014. My relations with Itan were never very good, some of them never liked me or SKV. Shortly after my return my access to Itan forum was revoked so yes - I found out about Anyx from a recent forum post.
3. Hiding in roids was exploited by everyone - I think I saw Greenwall with his dent inside a big roid in Levi sector (Sieger at one point too) shooting bots at some time after I returned to VO.
If everyone was doing it and nobody was getting fussed about it, I presumed (obviously wrong) that it was something devs tolerate.
[EDIT]
Since I feel you neglected to address TGFT commanders motto posted earlier I will be so free to offer a translation.
We will use any trick the devs allow us to get one over on the rest of you. Shove your ethics.
Translated: we will lie cheat and exploit everything the devs doesn't know it's exploitable or can be made into cheat. If they find out, we will cover our ears, play like we removed our cheats and exploits and find new ways to use those cheats and exploits or make new ones if that fails.
Rinse and repeat.
Comparing Anyx to TGFT utils is absurd and dishonest.
The difference is that Anyx is NOT a public plugin. Only guild members have access to it. All of them were and are fully aware of its location logging capability. Its purpose is simple and legit, to reduce the physical labor of typing out location of enemies to each other.
TGFT utils, on the other hand, was released for public use. Users were often unaware that the plugin was reporting their and surrounding players' locations back to TGFT leadership. There was nothing notifying them of that until the disclaimer was posted. If the majority of users were aware of what it's doing, they would not have installed it in the first place.
The difference is that Anyx is NOT a public plugin. Only guild members have access to it. All of them were and are fully aware of its location logging capability. Its purpose is simple and legit, to reduce the physical labor of typing out location of enemies to each other.
TGFT utils, on the other hand, was released for public use. Users were often unaware that the plugin was reporting their and surrounding players' locations back to TGFT leadership. There was nothing notifying them of that until the disclaimer was posted. If the majority of users were aware of what it's doing, they would not have installed it in the first place.
I use mass hacks and modded ships. Sue me.
@bojan
I am not privy to your and EPs exploits prior to my return to VO, I was away from VO from fall 2009 till winter 2014.
Yes you are, I just told you. And of course that's not the only instance of cheating within your ranks of supporters. Anyway, good job missing the point.
I found out about Anyx from a recent forum post.
I'm willing to accept you didn't know about it (though it really does seem like a stretch - given your alliance with ITAN and the fact that I've mentioned it before several times in conversations here with you), but all of your members who have alts in ITAN knew about it and have used it.
I think I saw Greenwall with his dent inside a big roid in Levi sector (Sieger at one point too) shooting bots at some time after I returned to VO.
If everyone was doing it and nobody was getting fussed about it, I presumed (obviously wrong) that it was something devs tolerate.
Uh, maybe in your dreams I was in a trident inside of a roid. In fact, in my dreams I have been inside a trident inside a roid. But never actually in game. That's really quite funny, as I can't even think what purpose it would serve in a Levi sector.
Nobody fussed about hiding in a roid because nobody had hidden a bot in one in a conquerable station to monitor the sector regardless of key ownership...until MaryJaneCheatingpants. (*gasps* who would have thought they were a bot used explicitly for cheating??)
@joyless
It's not abusrd or dishonest. It's completely the opposite. As an LT of Itan I was privy to information that revealed AnyX had been given to select non-ITAN members, namely ninjr (god rest his soul), with specific purpose of using him to spy for us without his knowledge. Furthermore, if you are sharing your location with a buddy of yours who is running AnyX, that location is collected and shared with the entire userbase (not something anyone buddies with an ITAN member or alt thereof would be likely to know). Just think how many buddies Ninjr had across guilds for a second. That is exactly what anti-TGFT folks have been been accusing TGFT of with TGFT Utilities. Factual and relevant.
Also, it's clear you aren't familiar with AnyX from your description of it's purpose. Nice try though.
Your claim suggesting most people (non-TGFT anyway) would not have used TGFT Utilities had there been a disclaimer from the begining makes sense. As I said it was a risky play, and I'm not sure I would have done it the same way (despite it being a fantastic way to gather intel). One must remember that publicly available plugins are always installed at your own risk. I recall a storm forecasting plugin that utilized a central server to compile experienced storms into a report for all users of a plugin. It was a great idea but I stopped using it because I didn't 100% trust the person who wrote it (nor could I read the code to see exactly what it was accessing). Better safe than sorry.
For me, I can totally see justifying the data collection as a payment of sorts for the enhancements offered by the plugin. But I just don't think it was very well thought out before it's release (namely, what to do when people find out it collects your data, lol), otherwise this whole mess could have been avoided easily.
The point you seem to continue to miss is that I'm not excusing TGFT from the way they handled the initial release (without a disclaimer). I am criticizing Bojan and his itani friends for talking out of both sides of their mouth. Even if Bojan didn't know about AnyX, he certainly should have if he read any of my early rebuttals to his TGFT utility-cheating claims, since I explicitly spoke about it at that time. Go back and have a look. If he wants to keep his head in the sand, that's his choice.
I am not privy to your and EPs exploits prior to my return to VO, I was away from VO from fall 2009 till winter 2014.
Yes you are, I just told you. And of course that's not the only instance of cheating within your ranks of supporters. Anyway, good job missing the point.
I found out about Anyx from a recent forum post.
I'm willing to accept you didn't know about it (though it really does seem like a stretch - given your alliance with ITAN and the fact that I've mentioned it before several times in conversations here with you), but all of your members who have alts in ITAN knew about it and have used it.
I think I saw Greenwall with his dent inside a big roid in Levi sector (Sieger at one point too) shooting bots at some time after I returned to VO.
If everyone was doing it and nobody was getting fussed about it, I presumed (obviously wrong) that it was something devs tolerate.
Uh, maybe in your dreams I was in a trident inside of a roid. In fact, in my dreams I have been inside a trident inside a roid. But never actually in game. That's really quite funny, as I can't even think what purpose it would serve in a Levi sector.
Nobody fussed about hiding in a roid because nobody had hidden a bot in one in a conquerable station to monitor the sector regardless of key ownership...until MaryJaneCheatingpants. (*gasps* who would have thought they were a bot used explicitly for cheating??)
@joyless
It's not abusrd or dishonest. It's completely the opposite. As an LT of Itan I was privy to information that revealed AnyX had been given to select non-ITAN members, namely ninjr (god rest his soul), with specific purpose of using him to spy for us without his knowledge. Furthermore, if you are sharing your location with a buddy of yours who is running AnyX, that location is collected and shared with the entire userbase (not something anyone buddies with an ITAN member or alt thereof would be likely to know). Just think how many buddies Ninjr had across guilds for a second. That is exactly what anti-TGFT folks have been been accusing TGFT of with TGFT Utilities. Factual and relevant.
Also, it's clear you aren't familiar with AnyX from your description of it's purpose. Nice try though.
Your claim suggesting most people (non-TGFT anyway) would not have used TGFT Utilities had there been a disclaimer from the begining makes sense. As I said it was a risky play, and I'm not sure I would have done it the same way (despite it being a fantastic way to gather intel). One must remember that publicly available plugins are always installed at your own risk. I recall a storm forecasting plugin that utilized a central server to compile experienced storms into a report for all users of a plugin. It was a great idea but I stopped using it because I didn't 100% trust the person who wrote it (nor could I read the code to see exactly what it was accessing). Better safe than sorry.
For me, I can totally see justifying the data collection as a payment of sorts for the enhancements offered by the plugin. But I just don't think it was very well thought out before it's release (namely, what to do when people find out it collects your data, lol), otherwise this whole mess could have been avoided easily.
The point you seem to continue to miss is that I'm not excusing TGFT from the way they handled the initial release (without a disclaimer). I am criticizing Bojan and his itani friends for talking out of both sides of their mouth. Even if Bojan didn't know about AnyX, he certainly should have if he read any of my early rebuttals to his TGFT utility-cheating claims, since I explicitly spoke about it at that time. Go back and have a look. If he wants to keep his head in the sand, that's his choice.
Yes Greenwall, you just told me so now I know you did something. What you exactly did I have no idea.
Same with Anyx, I first heard about it when you mentioned it in your post in one of the previous TGFT threads. So yes, I know about it's existence but I don't know what it's really for. I never used anything except TCS and draughats bare bones targetlist and I am sure 99% of SKV never used it too.
MaryJaneCheatingpants. (*gasps* who would have thought they were a bot used explicitly for cheating??)
Lol, it was not a bot. It was a player that logged from time to time to check if the station was under attack. The name was an obvious mockery of TGFT brigade of spy bots throughout the universe kept by tsreknor and his autobombing plug-in equipped automated bots used for conquering stations.
Same with Anyx, I first heard about it when you mentioned it in your post in one of the previous TGFT threads. So yes, I know about it's existence but I don't know what it's really for. I never used anything except TCS and draughats bare bones targetlist and I am sure 99% of SKV never used it too.
MaryJaneCheatingpants. (*gasps* who would have thought they were a bot used explicitly for cheating??)
Lol, it was not a bot. It was a player that logged from time to time to check if the station was under attack. The name was an obvious mockery of TGFT brigade of spy bots throughout the universe kept by tsreknor and his autobombing plug-in equipped automated bots used for conquering stations.
By bot I of course mean an character that is used for monitoring purposes and not actually playing the game. All accounts are controlled by players. Mockery or not, it was used to cheat, and you knew it and so did the person using it. And not only did you do nothing about it (as it still exists and is used in the same manner), but happily partook of the information it provided because they were a supporter of YOU and not TGFT.
SKV condones cheating. Just own it dude, you'll feel so much better.
Same with Anyx, I first heard about it when you mentioned it in your post in one of the previous TGFT threads.
Fine, but your silence about it's use as spyware is deafening.
SKV condones cheating. Just own it dude, you'll feel so much better.
Same with Anyx, I first heard about it when you mentioned it in your post in one of the previous TGFT threads.
Fine, but your silence about it's use as spyware is deafening.