However, at this point we have no Cap ships that play a large enough role to justify having a bomber in the game. Sure, it's coming someday, but that's at some undefinable point in the future. Until then, however long that may be, the Itani with their Valks and the Neutrals with their fast Maurauder cargo ships will continue to get a free ride whilst we Serco have a bomber with nothing to bomb and no bombs to do it with. What I'm saying is that until we have something worth bombing, make the Prometheus a heavy fighter.

Ok, this thread is getting Off-topic....
if you want to open a thread about ships, be my guest....

i accept you arguments...but no need to keep this thread on...

cheers

<<Replace b-52 with 'beefed Prom', f-15 with 'Valk' and ground target with 'capital ship' and you should see the anology.>>

Starfisher, once again you have a good analogy, except that the ships we have now are not powerful enough to be a bomber in the true sense of the word, they are more like a F15-E strike eagle or a F-18. they compare better to a ground attack fighter then a true bomber. lets do a payload comparison, a B1 or B2 has a weapons payload of approx 40,000 pounds B52 carries over 65,000 pounds of ordanance, a F-15 or F-16 carries 6 to 10 air to air missiles, weighing at most 500 pounds each. so a total of maybe 5,000 pounds of weapons. The ground attack versions sactifice some aerodynamics and performance and pick up about another 5,000 pounds of ground attack weapons on external hardpoints.

That is the difference between a fighter and a bomber. none of our ships carry that much ordinance, so none of them could be reasonably called bombers. Ground attack fighters, yes, but a ground attack fighter still has a chance in a fight with an air superiority fighter.

now, I'm not trying to say that there wont BE bombers at some point (maybe not with quite so much of a payload difference, like i said, a bomber in this game to me would have 4-5 large ports and a single small port, half the rangaroks agility and be about 35-60 M in length, with a nice broad profile), however your arguments are based on the prometheous being a bomber. I dont see it that way, I see it as something a little more multi-role, able to do a lot, (bomb the cap ships, defend itself from some fighters) but not do any of them as well as a specialized ship.

Starfisher, you're the one making appeals towards reality. I'm making appeals towards common sense. Did I say heavy ships should be able to go toe to toe with fighters? No. I said heavy ships shouldn't be easy pickings for fighters. That means if you want to kill my prom, you have to take a risk in attacking it. As it stands, the fighters take no risks, and the heavy ships bear all of it. The art of balance doesn't mean you have a heirarchy of ships. Balance means each ship is useful in its own way.

Proms are not B-52's and Valks are not F-22's. A prom is a prom and a valk is a valk. Stop making these analogies. You're operating based on a preconception that bombers should be easy pickings and fighters should reign supreme. Preconceptions like this prove very limiting in game and ship design and prove to be a detriment to balance. The style of combat we play by in Vendetta does not lend itself to the types of combat we used in WWII.
These ships are flown by independant fighters, pirates, and traders. We don't have combined arms, military commanders, or military discipline nor will it be possible for us to establish an infrastructure for those things. WWII anaologies do not apply.
Therefore, these ships should be able to hold their own. Not in the interest of realism, but in the interest of making the game fun and ensuring that the heavies are not rendered useless.

UncleDave can take on most valks in a prom because of two things.
A.) UncleDave is really good.
B.) Most valk fighters really suck.

I can take out most valk fighters in a vult (or at least I could,) and have held my own in hornets, hogs, mauds, and wraiths before. That doesn't mean they're balanced.

My main problem, however, is the fact that there is a single, best fighter in the game. The options for combat and different types of strategies just die. We get reduced to
A.) Waltzing around each other taking potshots until someone gets lucky. (If both ships have comparable agility.)
B.) Boosting straight into our target unleashing flare after flare indiscriminantly until either one or both are dead. (If your ship is faster than the target.)

It's a real lack of tactics involved mainly because agile fighters (valks, vults) get disproportionate advantages over slower ones with more firepower (hornets, hogs.) Combat as it is now is pretty fun, but it could be a lot more fun if we had a bigger variety of tactics and ships being employed that just the standard two above. The only way I can think of to create this would be to beef up the slower ships. Make it so that armor and firepower are comparable advantages to agility. I would like to make a choice about whether I choose to be a big, heavy, and slow brawler, or a lithe, agile, and weak fighter. Right now, that choice is usually made for me.

I've just realised that everybody forgets about the "Attack ship" class! The warthog and the hornet! The warthog gets used fairly often but I've rarely seen a hornet flying around. Maybe the hornet needs some tweaking so it can be the counter to the valk? Maybe the hornet could have two large ports and one small port? Or maybe two large and two small?

the primary problem isn't that the prom gets owned by the valk, it's that everything gets owned by the valk.

I can take down valks with my prom. the problem is i can only do it if the valk chooses to stay and die. I usually die because the valk goes, rearms and repairs and comes back before i get anywhere near a station. I don't think we need to boost hull on everything else. the difficulty seems to lie in the valk. lets try cutting it's HP to 7500, then to 5000 if it is still a problem. since it is so fast it can get away in a hurry if it comes under fire, lets make it VEUNERABLE to the fire it does take.

The other problem I have is that there are a lot of pilots out there who are not learning how to fly. the valk gives them so much of an advantage over the other ships that they never learn basic dogfighting, just fly, rocketspam, run tactics. We are depriving them of knowledge, and that isn't fair to them. :)

Give me an unreal engine and a beam cannon and I'll teach them how to fly ;-)

Um... 7500 will make the Vulture a superior ship. Yes, the valk will have -slightly- more agility (not noticable to me, but what do I know) and an extra weapons slot. But will the valk be worth it's extra 20k just for one more weapons slot? I think not!

I'm against giving the vult anymore hull. It's already really good. The only reason people want it to be stronger is because they're trying to fight valks with it.

I think those two are pretty well balanced. Despite what people say, a vult can kill a valk and a valk can kill a vult. We need to work on other ships, though. The hornet still needs a maneuverability boost or a hull boost, since I haven't seen a single player using it. It's just not good enough for its size. My bus can dodge gauss, my hornet can't (yes, I learned how to dodge gauss). The Centurion also needs a -slight- maneuverability boost. The warthog is good, the wraith is good (although we can't be sure since there's nothign to bomb). The atlas is quite possibly the best "beginner" trading ship possible. Because of its ease of entering sector 10, I even use it to trade sometimes. The Rag and Centaur are great, although I reccommend giving the Centaur yet another two cargo. The Maud is perfect, best tradeship. The Prom needs 2k health. The valk, needs for nothing!

valk > vulture in equal skill hands. More agility and firepower for no negatives.
But vulture is better than almost any other ship, so why don't we just lower valk (some) and vulture (tiny bit)?