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Ah, it’s been such a long time since we discussed the valks overwhelming abilities. Surprise surprise, its because someone got killed/chased/pirated by someone flying one when they were in an inferior ship or due to their inferior combat skills.
The valk is almost perfectly balanced: Sure it is slightly faster and better armed than its nearest competitor (the vulture), but it does cost 3x as much and can only be bought in three locations. I seriously believe that most of you (valk bashers) would rather see everyone in the standard three ships again, better that than to give someone a slight advantage.
Defeating a valk in a vulture takes skill and a slight change of tactics, just like trying to kill a prom in a valk does. My valk has been nailed by vultures plenty, usually because I was stupid and forgot how to beat it, or I picked a fight with a better pilot. The converse is true. I’ve tried to run down a vulture and they have gotten away due to clever dodging or smart play. Think for a change. Play to your advantages. Do you really expect to be able to beat two slightly better ships in a 2v1 situation? No, not unless you bank on your ability to outfly the two other ships. You obviously did the smart thing: you ran and lived.
:)
By all means, boost the promy a little. It is still a very tough ship tho. It takes a licking and still keeps on tiking. Its good to see some flying again, more of it I say!
The valk is almost perfectly balanced: Sure it is slightly faster and better armed than its nearest competitor (the vulture), but it does cost 3x as much and can only be bought in three locations. I seriously believe that most of you (valk bashers) would rather see everyone in the standard three ships again, better that than to give someone a slight advantage.
Defeating a valk in a vulture takes skill and a slight change of tactics, just like trying to kill a prom in a valk does. My valk has been nailed by vultures plenty, usually because I was stupid and forgot how to beat it, or I picked a fight with a better pilot. The converse is true. I’ve tried to run down a vulture and they have gotten away due to clever dodging or smart play. Think for a change. Play to your advantages. Do you really expect to be able to beat two slightly better ships in a 2v1 situation? No, not unless you bank on your ability to outfly the two other ships. You obviously did the smart thing: you ran and lived.
:)
By all means, boost the promy a little. It is still a very tough ship tho. It takes a licking and still keeps on tiking. Its good to see some flying again, more of it I say!
The valk is almost perfectly balanced: Sure it is slightly faster and better armed than its nearest competitor (the vulture), but it does cost 3x as much and can only be bought in three locations. I seriously believe that most of you (valk bashers) would rather see everyone in the standard three ships again, better that than to give someone a slight advantage.
I really have to take exception to this. not only is it faster and better armed then the vult, but it has 1500 extra HP as well. the progression is wrong. faster/ more agile should = less armor, not more.
the prommy has a major disadvantage in the way it flys, it is a brick. It's meant to be a brick, it has the ability to mount an advanced gat. The maurauder is a tad more maneuverable than the prom, and has less armor and a smaller weapons loadout, it's disadvantaged in most combat situations compared to a prom or a valk. Please tell me the Valk's weakness, because for the life of me I cant think of one. I dont think it needs to be totally redone, just lower its hull, maybe down to 7500 for a start.
as to people wanting to nerf the valk because they want everyone in the regular ships.. that is not the case, I would like to see a disadvantage to offset it's advantage. (and don't quote price at me, we've allready shown that a fully loaded prom costs way more than a valk. besides price is a bad way to achieve balance)
I personally feel that the prom is just about perfect, against anything but the valk a smart pilot in a prom should pretty much clean up in a straight up fight by using tactics that take advantage of the proms armor and weapons load. Backpedal and make your enemies fly into the fire from your adv gat. swarms and gemini's make life interesting for the prom, but thats just part of it's charm and one of its major weaknesses, which provides a significant measure of balance. :)
anyhow, my above comment still stands, leave it all alone for now. no need to band-aid something that is scheduled for major surgery. When the missions and such come into being or the devs impose other limits on the purchase of equipment we can begin to take a better look at balancing the ships and weapons. right now the availibility is just too open to try to determine what will provide final balance. It would be a shame to balance all the ships only to have to re-do it because certain parts suddenly became rare. :)
I agree with Spellcast. However, if the three special ships became hard to get then the prom would need an upgrade. As it is it wouldn't be worth the trouble of going through missions and what not.
It would probably be best to wait and see though.
It would probably be best to wait and see though.
The Prom is a BOMBER. Not an ADVANCED FIGHTER. Why is there a problem with it losing to a Valkyrie?
People seem to lose sight of the fact that frigate size ships are eventually meant to be in the game, and that bombers are the traditional space sim counter to capital ships. Bombers are NOT meant to counter fighters, and I don't understand why everyone expects this to be so. I'm sure that when bigger-than-fighter size ships enter the game, the Prom will be given an extra l-port and become the premier anti-frigate/corvette/cap ship vessel, while the valk will become the premier escort fighter.
The vulture is ridiculously hard to hit edge on with anything but gauss and sunflare. It makes perfect sense that it have less health when compared to a valk, which is a much bigger target. I could see increasing the vulture's health if the centurion and vulture models were switched.
People seem to lose sight of the fact that frigate size ships are eventually meant to be in the game, and that bombers are the traditional space sim counter to capital ships. Bombers are NOT meant to counter fighters, and I don't understand why everyone expects this to be so. I'm sure that when bigger-than-fighter size ships enter the game, the Prom will be given an extra l-port and become the premier anti-frigate/corvette/cap ship vessel, while the valk will become the premier escort fighter.
The vulture is ridiculously hard to hit edge on with anything but gauss and sunflare. It makes perfect sense that it have less health when compared to a valk, which is a much bigger target. I could see increasing the vulture's health if the centurion and vulture models were switched.
Fisher, its not even a particularly effective bomber. Instead of trotting out the same argument most valkyrie jockeys use when someone comments on the prom, try and back yours up. The prom is supposed to be an uber-armored heavy bomber. It was brutally beaten by the nerf stick some months ago, and now only has 2k more than the ragnarok. Lets compare this for a second: the vulture, 8500HP, 2 ports, high agility against the valkyrie-20% more hull (ish), an extra weapon port, and even higher agility. The ragnarok, 16000HP, 2L, 3S against the prom- higher agility but only around 12% more hull and LESS weaponry. On top of which, the prom costs more than the valkyrie.
Balanced? No. The prom needs its old hull back, but lower agility and higher mass, possibly an extra L port. Anything. But the prom isnt special enough as it stands, its simply around as good as the other regular ships.
Balanced? No. The prom needs its old hull back, but lower agility and higher mass, possibly an extra L port. Anything. But the prom isnt special enough as it stands, its simply around as good as the other regular ships.
After thinking for a couple of minutes, I tought up this:
-remove the blackmarket
-increase valk price to 50,000 (it's advanced, it uses state-of-the-art stuff, it is built by a team of 500 researchers and engineers; so it should be expensive)
-prom price decreased to 15,000 (it's big, bulky, but it's made by a bunch of ale drinking fanatical serco's; prolly made out of scrap metal, it shouldn't really be expensive)
-prom gets the same ammount of weapons as the rag
-maud price decreased to 20,000 (it's a freighter, mass produced, it should have the advantage that it's cheap)
-maud should carry 20 cargo
-maud: one small port gone, one large port added (mines! mines! mines! what is a trader without mines?)
-remove the blackmarket
-increase valk price to 50,000 (it's advanced, it uses state-of-the-art stuff, it is built by a team of 500 researchers and engineers; so it should be expensive)
-prom price decreased to 15,000 (it's big, bulky, but it's made by a bunch of ale drinking fanatical serco's; prolly made out of scrap metal, it shouldn't really be expensive)
-prom gets the same ammount of weapons as the rag
-maud price decreased to 20,000 (it's a freighter, mass produced, it should have the advantage that it's cheap)
-maud should carry 20 cargo
-maud: one small port gone, one large port added (mines! mines! mines! what is a trader without mines?)
mmmhh how about no sheean :D
If you do want to do something with the blackmarket, then I propose this:
Blackmarket stays, prices are 10 -15x more expensive then if bought by a nations user "dynamic prices, if they get bought a lot, prices shift to 15 if they dont get bought a lot, they shift to 10".
--> this will limit specials in a certain way, considering that missions will be put in later, and a blackmarket isnt just accessible and always seriously overpriced for contraband goods.
valk: 100k --> you can outrun everybody in one
prom: 40k --> you get shot down pretty easy in one, so replacement cost shouldnt be as uber
marauder: 70k --> between prom and valk. Is also a good moneymaker.
prom: same amount of weapons as rag
no increase in cargo for maud, it already has a keen edge in that. And no big port on the marauder, /me starts to shiver. It is a trader not a small attack ship like the hog. Just make the proxmines small port and add a couple amount to the lightning mines to beef that largport variant a bit :D
cheers
If you do want to do something with the blackmarket, then I propose this:
Blackmarket stays, prices are 10 -15x more expensive then if bought by a nations user "dynamic prices, if they get bought a lot, prices shift to 15 if they dont get bought a lot, they shift to 10".
--> this will limit specials in a certain way, considering that missions will be put in later, and a blackmarket isnt just accessible and always seriously overpriced for contraband goods.
valk: 100k --> you can outrun everybody in one
prom: 40k --> you get shot down pretty easy in one, so replacement cost shouldnt be as uber
marauder: 70k --> between prom and valk. Is also a good moneymaker.
prom: same amount of weapons as rag
no increase in cargo for maud, it already has a keen edge in that. And no big port on the marauder, /me starts to shiver. It is a trader not a small attack ship like the hog. Just make the proxmines small port and add a couple amount to the lightning mines to beef that largport variant a bit :D
cheers
Either that, or make weapon facing dependent upon the port rather than the weapon. Give each weapon an initial heading, and angle range for autotracking (if it has one). Thus, the Maud has three small ports, two of which face the rear.
<<<The Prom is a BOMBER. Not an ADVANCED FIGHTER. Why is there a problem with it losing to a Valkyrie?>>>
I never said that there was a problem with the prom loosing to a valk, in case you missed the sentence before the part about the prom loosing to a valk, here it is
I personally feel that the prom is just about perfect.
In thinking about it however, the win disparity is just too large.
In 95% of fights a prom will loose to a valk, regardless of the skill of the pilots.
Please specify for me which ship will beat the valk in 95% of fights even if the pilots are equal, for that matter which ship can gain a 50/50 win ratio. The prommy and the maurauder need to be balanced against the valkarie. The valk should beat a prommy if the valk pilot is better, and have about a 65-75% chance if the pilots are equal. As you said it is an advanced fighter, it should have the advantage. However, even against people who have been playing for a week and are flying their first valk, the prom has a good chance of loosing even when it's flown by a good pilot. I've backpedaled across several sectors fending off attacks by noobs who didn't even know not to boost at a prom when he's hitting them with rails, yet i cant kill them because they just run away and rearm/repair.
These are supposed to be 2 nations (Itani and Serco) that are just about equal in strength, achieving parity because each has a strength that plays upon the other nations weakness. the strength of the prommy is it's decent weapons loadout and respecytable agility combined with it's (relatively)heavy armor. it's weakness is is inability to react quickly to a threat from the side. it should chew through a valkarie that is making head on suicide charges at it, but it can't, because the valk has enough HP to soak up 7 direct railgun hits. Obviously the high speed, excelent agility and good weapons loadout are the valks advantages,
WHATS THE DISADVANTAGE???!?!?!?!.
I asked that earlier and did not recieve an answer. I wait with bated breath.
The argument about cap ships is a fine one, except that to me the prommy is not even close to being a bomber, for that matter neither is the rangarok. a bomber should be at least twice the size of the ships we have now. (think B2 vs F15, or B52 vs F16)
What we have now as bombers are more closely related to a ground attack fighter. something that has a multiple jobs, so it does none of them overly well. hence a valk being easily able to outmaneuver a prom or a rangarok and kill it. A true "Bomber" would have half the agility of the rangarok, maybe 28k HP and about 4 Large weapons slots. maybe 1 small weapon slot. It would be extremely large and slow to react, hence very easy to hit and destroy, but it would pack a terrific punch. (imagine 4 screamers or even 4 avalons hitting at once) It would be completely useless against a fighter and NEED fighter protection to remain alive anywhere near a battle.
I never said that there was a problem with the prom loosing to a valk, in case you missed the sentence before the part about the prom loosing to a valk, here it is
I personally feel that the prom is just about perfect.
In thinking about it however, the win disparity is just too large.
In 95% of fights a prom will loose to a valk, regardless of the skill of the pilots.
Please specify for me which ship will beat the valk in 95% of fights even if the pilots are equal, for that matter which ship can gain a 50/50 win ratio. The prommy and the maurauder need to be balanced against the valkarie. The valk should beat a prommy if the valk pilot is better, and have about a 65-75% chance if the pilots are equal. As you said it is an advanced fighter, it should have the advantage. However, even against people who have been playing for a week and are flying their first valk, the prom has a good chance of loosing even when it's flown by a good pilot. I've backpedaled across several sectors fending off attacks by noobs who didn't even know not to boost at a prom when he's hitting them with rails, yet i cant kill them because they just run away and rearm/repair.
These are supposed to be 2 nations (Itani and Serco) that are just about equal in strength, achieving parity because each has a strength that plays upon the other nations weakness. the strength of the prommy is it's decent weapons loadout and respecytable agility combined with it's (relatively)heavy armor. it's weakness is is inability to react quickly to a threat from the side. it should chew through a valkarie that is making head on suicide charges at it, but it can't, because the valk has enough HP to soak up 7 direct railgun hits. Obviously the high speed, excelent agility and good weapons loadout are the valks advantages,
WHATS THE DISADVANTAGE???!?!?!?!.
I asked that earlier and did not recieve an answer. I wait with bated breath.
The argument about cap ships is a fine one, except that to me the prommy is not even close to being a bomber, for that matter neither is the rangarok. a bomber should be at least twice the size of the ships we have now. (think B2 vs F15, or B52 vs F16)
What we have now as bombers are more closely related to a ground attack fighter. something that has a multiple jobs, so it does none of them overly well. hence a valk being easily able to outmaneuver a prom or a rangarok and kill it. A true "Bomber" would have half the agility of the rangarok, maybe 28k HP and about 4 Large weapons slots. maybe 1 small weapon slot. It would be extremely large and slow to react, hence very easy to hit and destroy, but it would pack a terrific punch. (imagine 4 screamers or even 4 avalons hitting at once) It would be completely useless against a fighter and NEED fighter protection to remain alive anywhere near a battle.
>WHATS THE DISADVANTAGE???!?!?!?!
Simple, it should be A) expensive B) the advantages of the other ships should be upped
But for now.. yeah, the valk is way too good.
[Edit] thinking about it:
Centaur - Maud [should carry more cargo]
Ragnarok - Prom [should have more weaponslots]
??? [vult with a bit higher HP and 3 weaponslots] - Valkerie
Basicly, the special should be beter than the non-special, but the non-special version will still be able to compete with the special.
Also the ??? should be replaced by something, maybe a modified version of the vulture or something with higher agility...
Simple, it should be A) expensive B) the advantages of the other ships should be upped
But for now.. yeah, the valk is way too good.
[Edit] thinking about it:
Centaur - Maud [should carry more cargo]
Ragnarok - Prom [should have more weaponslots]
??? [vult with a bit higher HP and 3 weaponslots] - Valkerie
Basicly, the special should be beter than the non-special, but the non-special version will still be able to compete with the special.
Also the ??? should be replaced by something, maybe a modified version of the vulture or something with higher agility...
I misunderstood the pro-prom arguments. I thought you were trying to balance the prom with the valk as if the prom was simply another fighter - which its not.
It definately does need another L-Port or two and a boost in armor before it can be considered a bomber - but the Valk should still own it. If every ship can stand on its own against every other ship why buy a more expensive ship? Or why form groups? This is supposedly an RPG - yet the only real 'roles' are defined by which weapon you are good at. If bombers are set apart from advanced fighters are set apart from tradeships, you all the suddenly have three distinct 'classes' without the idiocy of skill points. AND you have a major incentive to create groups or 'parties', as you're valk isn't going to do well against that frigate, but the bomber a friend is flying will.
It definately does need another L-Port or two and a boost in armor before it can be considered a bomber - but the Valk should still own it. If every ship can stand on its own against every other ship why buy a more expensive ship? Or why form groups? This is supposedly an RPG - yet the only real 'roles' are defined by which weapon you are good at. If bombers are set apart from advanced fighters are set apart from tradeships, you all the suddenly have three distinct 'classes' without the idiocy of skill points. AND you have a major incentive to create groups or 'parties', as you're valk isn't going to do well against that frigate, but the bomber a friend is flying will.
<quote>
WHATS THE DISADVANTAGE???!?!?!?!
Simple, it should be A) expensive B) the advantages of the other ships should be upped
But for now.. yeah, the valk is way too good.
[Edit] thinking about it:
Centaur - Maud [should carry more cargo]
Ragnarok - Prom [should have more weaponslots]
??? [vult with a bit higher HP and 3 weaponslots] - Valkerie
</quote>
Valk is already more expensive. And once the missions come in play, it will be completely fixed. Just make them rare as hell. So please no halfbaked solutions that take time away from the devs.
now about the rest:
centaur - maud : maud has same cargo, same hull but a lot more agility. If the devs shifted the proxmines towards a small port then the problem would be solved. Youll be able to load up on 30 prox mines in that case. I think you can run quite a while with it.
Prom - ragnorok: prom has more hull, a lot more agility, but has as a disadvantage that it is insanely big and that it has less armament. An increase with 1 big weaponport would be nice.
valk - vult: valk has more hull, more firepower, more agility but is a bigger target.
increase the prices prior mentioned and all the pure fighterships will be weakened considerably. then imagine making them very rare because of missions and you will understand that no patchwork is needed yet.
Also dont forget that the prom has 12 cargo that it can trade, what could be considered to be an advantage to.
cheers
WHATS THE DISADVANTAGE???!?!?!?!
Simple, it should be A) expensive B) the advantages of the other ships should be upped
But for now.. yeah, the valk is way too good.
[Edit] thinking about it:
Centaur - Maud [should carry more cargo]
Ragnarok - Prom [should have more weaponslots]
??? [vult with a bit higher HP and 3 weaponslots] - Valkerie
</quote>
Valk is already more expensive. And once the missions come in play, it will be completely fixed. Just make them rare as hell. So please no halfbaked solutions that take time away from the devs.
now about the rest:
centaur - maud : maud has same cargo, same hull but a lot more agility. If the devs shifted the proxmines towards a small port then the problem would be solved. Youll be able to load up on 30 prox mines in that case. I think you can run quite a while with it.
Prom - ragnorok: prom has more hull, a lot more agility, but has as a disadvantage that it is insanely big and that it has less armament. An increase with 1 big weaponport would be nice.
valk - vult: valk has more hull, more firepower, more agility but is a bigger target.
increase the prices prior mentioned and all the pure fighterships will be weakened considerably. then imagine making them very rare because of missions and you will understand that no patchwork is needed yet.
Also dont forget that the prom has 12 cargo that it can trade, what could be considered to be an advantage to.
cheers
Considering that most pirates fly valkyries that can outrun proms with ease, not really.
Uncle,
in a prom you can or should be able to withstand 5 tripple flare direct hits, I would prefer if it is 8 - 9 though. So outrunning them is not a prob considering that you have the same top speed, and about the same acceleration as a bus. A gauss valk hasnt got the chance of keeping up with you as long as you are intent on running. If you have the intent on fighting him, then that is your choice, but normally freighters dont fight pirates, they deter them by leaving them nice packages like mines and all.
Dont head for the nearest station, make a jump and head towards your homesector if needed, and if he is really after you. At least the defense bots will make him a little bit more carefully and you should be able to dock more easilly.
So you have the advantage of being able to take a couple hits while you are running. This advantage counts for something, doesnt it. You dont need to slow down to really avoid all the suns.
cheers
in a prom you can or should be able to withstand 5 tripple flare direct hits, I would prefer if it is 8 - 9 though. So outrunning them is not a prob considering that you have the same top speed, and about the same acceleration as a bus. A gauss valk hasnt got the chance of keeping up with you as long as you are intent on running. If you have the intent on fighting him, then that is your choice, but normally freighters dont fight pirates, they deter them by leaving them nice packages like mines and all.
Dont head for the nearest station, make a jump and head towards your homesector if needed, and if he is really after you. At least the defense bots will make him a little bit more carefully and you should be able to dock more easilly.
So you have the advantage of being able to take a couple hits while you are running. This advantage counts for something, doesnt it. You dont need to slow down to really avoid all the suns.
cheers
This idea that heavy ships shouls always be easy pickings for fighters really has to go. There is no such thing as "normally" when we're talking about space combat unless you have some sort of time machine I don't know about. All I know is, if I commanded a freighter in this galaxy, I would make sure it was well armored and well armed enough to put a pounding on any fighters that got near me. Currently, none of the special ships have that capability.
Additionally, these preconceptions towards how ships are supposed to behave based on what you see in Star Wars is really proving to be a detriment to balance.
Additionally, these preconceptions towards how ships are supposed to behave based on what you see in Star Wars is really proving to be a detriment to balance.
This has nothing to do with star wars. Nor reality. If this were 'realistic', we wouldn't be flying fighters and combat would be fought at ranges of 100,000km with lasers and missles. Is that a fun game? No.
If all ships are great against all other ships, WHY on earth would I buy a different ship? 'cause it looks good? Come now. Bombers should be bombers, not fighters. A b-52 is going to get womped by an f-15, almost every time. Unless it has a fighter escort. And a target on the ground is going to get womped, almost every time, by a b-52.
Replace b-52 with 'beefed Prom', f-15 with 'Valk' and ground target with 'capital ship' and you should see the anology.
If all ships are great against all other ships, WHY on earth would I buy a different ship? 'cause it looks good? Come now. Bombers should be bombers, not fighters. A b-52 is going to get womped by an f-15, almost every time. Unless it has a fighter escort. And a target on the ground is going to get womped, almost every time, by a b-52.
Replace b-52 with 'beefed Prom', f-15 with 'Valk' and ground target with 'capital ship' and you should see the anology.
So you should be able to withstand 5 triple flare hits. Let me put forth that there's no way in HELL you can survive four triflare hits, much less five. Despite armor ratings, I've found that three triflare hits takes me down way below where I'm comfortable being hull-wise, station close or no. The fact that the average Valk carries sixteen such volleys, and can launch enough off to kill a fleeing Prometheus in under six seconds also speaks to the imbalance. As to outrunning a Valk, have you ever tried to outrun a Valk in a Prom? There's just no way you can do it. The Valk has far superior acceleration and sustained speed. Sure, I can theoretically outrun it with a heavy engine... but it takes me three times as long to reach that speed, and it can be maintained for less than three seconds before I'm out of battery charge and must release my boost key. In the short term, acceleration is all that matters.
"If all ships are great against all other ships, WHY on earth would I buy a different ship?"
Different tactics? Different things to practice at? Not knowing what enemies you're going to face? Advantages and disadvantes for each config?
At the moment we have one ship thats great against all ships and all the other ships are less than average so why would you buy anything other than a valk at the moment? (except trading)
Different tactics? Different things to practice at? Not knowing what enemies you're going to face? Advantages and disadvantes for each config?
At the moment we have one ship thats great against all ships and all the other ships are less than average so why would you buy anything other than a valk at the moment? (except trading)
Well, since you can steal the cargo of any passing trader in a Valk, there's no impetus to trade, either.
Hunter that's exactly my point. Right now there's only one situation you need to look out for: fighter-fighter combat. The final game will hopefully feature fighters, corvettes and cap ships, which would give those bombers a reason to exist. And a reason to buy them.
What I'm saying is don't balance the bombers/heavy ships as if they are designed to take out fighters. They aren't. Fighters are designed to take out small craft, bombers large craft. Otherwise, why have different ships at all?
What I'm saying is don't balance the bombers/heavy ships as if they are designed to take out fighters. They aren't. Fighters are designed to take out small craft, bombers large craft. Otherwise, why have different ships at all?