Omfg no one gets it don't they. Even Ecka got it and ITAN/TGFT are still whining...

And no, my answers are purely informational with probably only a HINT of RP. Ryan Reign is exactly right in this case. Everyone else is using bots. Then when we start using them, everyone starts whining about it.

And we do shoot TGFT because they decided to align with ITAN. They're both just butthurt that we can shoot them a bit easier now.

Not quite accurate. Some of us are only complaining because of the exploitation of /logout. That is the only non-RP issue I have with it (assuming they really aren't hiding in asteroids anymore).

And for the record, Keller is inaccurate when he says it can take hours to find and kill these guys. I didn't time how long it took me to locate and kill SCIN-32 the other day, but it was closer to 20 minutes. Which is still too long. When they don't abuse /logout, you can find and kill them in three our four minutes if you know what you're doing.

Even if they do logout, you can still find them and when they log out, wait until they log back in and kill them. They are only logged off for a matter of minutes.

It turns a four minute process into a twenty minute process composed primarily of waiting.

Keller wrote: "I guess that means we should all define what constitutes a legal (i.e. within the game) use of a monitoring bot, then agree to abide by those rules. Just saying a player could do something doesn't make it a legal use either. No one likes what DE was doing with the trial accounts, but a player COULD play that way. There's nothing in game stopping him from playing the way he does, but it still constitutes an abuse of the game.

From my perspective, this would suggest:
1) A monitoring bot should be static with a paying subscription (I am willing to accept these could be Lite subbies, but no alts)
2) Should remain logged into a single location (i.e. be a persistent entity)
3) Should be restricted to behaviors that could be done by a player who remained logged in at all times. e.g. monitoring that sector, recording chat in buffers (which is what Spence's pet does; I've experimented with data mining of the chat buffers to discern locations of players with some success, although none of this implemented in game), banking, gambling, chat bots who sell information, PR bots for boasting its guild's prowess."

Again, this seems to me to be "what we do with bots is OK, but what RED does is cheating". The only cogent argument I've seen here is Pizzasgood's issue with the logout/login deal, and there are other threads discussing possible ways of dealing with that particular issue.

Keller, why do you (and others listing "acceptable use of bots") feel you get to decide what's OK and whats not? Isn't that up to the devs? Inc may have been away last week, but the SCIN bots have been around for much longer than a week. Hell, I think this thread has been here longer than a week, and even if Inc is away, I'd bet he's still in contact with the rest of the dev team, and I doubt he's stopped monitoring the forums. Therefore, I think it's safe to assume Inc is more than capable of responding here if he see's the SCIN network as a mis-use of bots, lite subs, trial accounts or friend keys, even if it was just to say "Hey guys, we don't like this, but don't have time to do much about it yet... please remove the bots for now..."

This entire thread has a remarkable lack of dev input. If the devs had an issue with the SCIN network, or any other bots currently in game for that matter, I believe we'd have heard something from the devs by now.

Dent.

Wow, this is way cool !

I had no idea we could create bot networks. I hope the Devs don't nerf this because I plan to start building my own bot network.

I'll employ all the tricks shared in this thread and put bots in all of the station sectors and WH. The bots will capture information on other players, and upload it to a database.

I'll create a web site, available to all, showing the current location of players, except I'll limit the display to pirates and griefers. In addition to current location, I'll perform analysis of the data to show what sectors pirates visit, travel patterns, grouping analysis (what players show up in a sector together), and other analysis. The data will also eventually lead to clues about identifying alts.

The site will allow visitors to register to get alerts on player movements. The alerts may be e-mail messages, text messages, and/or posting to IRC chat boards.

I'll be able to develop targeting capabilities that identify vulnerable pirates, a pirate alone in a sector in an XC, or a pirate alone with no help nearby. Once a good target is identified, messaging can be sent to those interested to coordinate an attack. The goal will be to turn the predators into prey.

Yes, this is way cool stuff !

Perhaps the devs, like myself, think this thread is completely amusing, and wouldn't dare end the wild speculation and carebear rantings for its fantastic entertainment value.

Spiff, I personally hope you do, since there's nothing pirates and players of this game thrive on more than action. Whether they are prepared to admit it or not. It's a love-to-hate kind of thing, so I invite you, no I *urge* you to go ahead and do that.

Quit using the "only anti-Serco players hate this!" excuse, as it is bullshit. I am entirely neutral in terms of all guilds and factions. I remain completely undecided on all such matters. That said, I *still* think this is an awful idea and needs to be shut down.

But Alex, only anti-serco players do hate this, and although you may be faction neutral, you've already admitted that you're full of other MMO preconceptions where things like this would be obviously banned. VO is supposed to be different in that regard.

I've provided plenty of reasons why this is a Bad Idea other than that it wouldn't fly in other games. My preconceptions aren't guiding me to this stance -- the fact that it's an awful idea is.

Then why wasn't it awful when TGFT, PA or ITAN do it?

^ The fact remains that there is nothing particularly new about people having bots in sectors to monitor your activities. Whoever orchestrated this one obviously wanted it to look like there was a coherent attempt to monitor you, but TGFT and other guilds have done this before more subtly and nobody has even bothered to discuss it.

The cause of this discussion is purely because PaK doesn't like RED or FAMY who in his mind are working together on this project to use monitoring to attack him and that's plainly apparent from his post.

I don't recall a time when TGFT, PA, or Itan ever used more than three (3) bots at once, per guild. How many SCIN bots are there?

They have more than three right now!

one at each conquerable station, one at ukari l2 and one in nyrius f6, that's five

I am the only one likely to weigh in on this topic, and I am currently:

- 2000 miles from home.
- very, very busy with work stuff.
- sick, fever, etc (posting this from bed, with phone).

I will comment when I can.

OK, I stand corrected on Inc's ability to have commented by now.

Lets wait and see what he has to say on the issue.

Dent.

They have more than three right now!

one at each conquerable station, one at ukari l2 and one in nyrius f6, that's five

I'm against those as well, then, or just leave them with one. I wasn't aware they were there (it's been a little while since I was able to log in.)

Anyone find it odd that the one pushing against "spies" in the game is the one known for having at least 3 alts in other guilds for the purpose of subversive intentions? Even though that's against section 1.1 part 4 (working toward part 2) of the Rules of Conduct. Someone should be hugging Savet every day for being cool about it.

The SCIN bots were violating section 1 part 12 of the rules of conduct for exploitation of the asteroid hack.

Logout is not intensive to the server. Login, however, takes quite a bit of processing power on the account of the new hashing algorithms implemented in November 2012. Guild had to make sure that on the Android tablets there wasn't a noticeable lag while the hashing operation ran (cited as ~500ms in one case). This is of course no big deal to single usage, but if the average user is only logging in once per a short 1 hour session, then the SCIN bots were using 640 times (6 accounts, logging in every 45 seconds or so, according to log files) the same resources.

I couldn't find a scripted way to login to the game, so I must assume the SCIN bots are doing that through an external daemon and simulating a set of key strokes to login.

Wait, why am I being hugged?

Denro, I was going to call you an idiot, but then I realized it was me that was going through the "community projects" cesspool in search of some plugin I could have sworn I had seen somewhere at some point.