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Oh. And +1 for a TRS rage quit
TRS votes that all bots be banned, TGFT included.
I'd support banning all bots, except IRC is rather convenient. Taking IRC out of the equation is a subject for another thread, though.
While I like most of the people on irc, it's often more annoying than any other bot. It should be the first to go. They can implement a web based chat if they want out of game chatter.
Savet, there are two ways of dealing with annoyance of the IRC relay. You can ignore the entire relay, or you can use the IgnoreIRC plugin to ignore individuals.
Some bots DO serve a good purpose. The IRC just mentioned. The PhoenixVoice bot which not only manages an IRC link for PA but runs the casino. Those 2 never even move and are fully subscribed. (I should know in the case of PV - I pay that one myself in addition to my own sub)
This isn't about people not wanting space to be dangerous. It's about a guild gaining unfair information that the rest of us have to gain through means the devs intended. Where they persistent bots, a point might be made, but these aren't. I DO think some persistent bots can be useful for the game by providing functions for the guild as well as providing content and gameplay. However, this is more a case of someone saying "You didn't say I COULDN'T do that, so I must be able to." That kind of logic is what got those 2 idiots in Steubenville in trouble. (and rightly too) People have to believe a game is fair or they won't play it. Yes - gray space is dangerous, but it's normally fair, as each player is as handicapped as any others. You change that, and game balance changes whether it's a real change or merely perspective. As a person who's designed a number of board games over the years (all wargames BTW), I can tell you that if the game is perceived not to be balanced (which is not the same thing as saying 'safe' - as some in here have already claimed), people WILL STOP PLAYING. All you'll be left with in the end in game is the people doing this, a couple of buddies who come to PvP and chat, the spypoppers, and all those empty convoys coming from no where in station sectors.
This isn't about people not wanting space to be dangerous. It's about a guild gaining unfair information that the rest of us have to gain through means the devs intended. Where they persistent bots, a point might be made, but these aren't. I DO think some persistent bots can be useful for the game by providing functions for the guild as well as providing content and gameplay. However, this is more a case of someone saying "You didn't say I COULDN'T do that, so I must be able to." That kind of logic is what got those 2 idiots in Steubenville in trouble. (and rightly too) People have to believe a game is fair or they won't play it. Yes - gray space is dangerous, but it's normally fair, as each player is as handicapped as any others. You change that, and game balance changes whether it's a real change or merely perspective. As a person who's designed a number of board games over the years (all wargames BTW), I can tell you that if the game is perceived not to be balanced (which is not the same thing as saying 'safe' - as some in here have already claimed), people WILL STOP PLAYING. All you'll be left with in the end in game is the people doing this, a couple of buddies who come to PvP and chat, the spypoppers, and all those empty convoys coming from no where in station sectors.
Unless they're doing something that an organized group of individual players could not do, there is no unfairness.
Keller also forgot to mention that PV is a Lieutenant in PA as well.
At this point I am simply asking the bot net owner to remove the bots voluntarily - If they choose to refuse then the Devs are likely to be forced to act on the matter which I doubt anyone will like the results.
one bot per guild is one thing - 30 plus bots per guild would create a rather serious problem.
If the owner wants to figure out a way to fly thier bot around then they are welcome to scan whatever it sees.
At this point I am simply asking the bot net owner to remove the bots voluntarily - If they choose to refuse then the Devs are likely to be forced to act on the matter which I doubt anyone will like the results.
one bot per guild is one thing - 30 plus bots per guild would create a rather serious problem.
If the owner wants to figure out a way to fly thier bot around then they are welcome to scan whatever it sees.
I propose that GS rule that bots must be fully subscribed (not light) and station bound. Or they could mandate that anyone wishing to use a bot must clear it with them first. That would ensure that bots that benefit the game are enabled (IRC bot, gambling bot, etc.) and exploitive bots are eliminated.
As they are now employed, the SCIN bots are a potential detriment to gameplay since they provide mass information to one or two individuals that exploit it to their advantage. If it were a single bot or even two, watching a station or a WH sector like Verasi O-7, that would be one thing. But 20-30 rolling bots that log on/off every few seconds/minutes potentially feed entire flight plans to RED/BR1, allowing them to grief TGFT, ORE, ITAN, and unguilded players they deem to shoot.
It has the potential to drive players away.
And as much as TRS has been (pretending to?) voicing the need for improved gameplay to keep/attract players, I'm surprised at this exploit. Oh. Wait. It isn't him.
As they are now employed, the SCIN bots are a potential detriment to gameplay since they provide mass information to one or two individuals that exploit it to their advantage. If it were a single bot or even two, watching a station or a WH sector like Verasi O-7, that would be one thing. But 20-30 rolling bots that log on/off every few seconds/minutes potentially feed entire flight plans to RED/BR1, allowing them to grief TGFT, ORE, ITAN, and unguilded players they deem to shoot.
It has the potential to drive players away.
And as much as TRS has been (pretending to?) voicing the need for improved gameplay to keep/attract players, I'm surprised at this exploit. Oh. Wait. It isn't him.
I propose that GS rule that bots must be fully subscribed (not light) and station bound.
Yeah? and how do you propose they enforce that? The distinction between a bot and a player is virtually non existent. Sure, this dude has conveniently named them SCIN-XX, but if we wanted to he could have guilded them and named them even after players that have deleted their accounts.
And so what if they have to be station bound and fully subbed? Are you going to stop them from being able to log in and out too?
If we follow you down the garden path where this is supposedly all my fault - I can very easily afford to run at least two subs and I can damn sure convince everybody else in RED that it's worthwhile to buy a second sub for the purposes of a bot network.. so all that leaves you with is exactly the same scenario as you have now.
It has the potential to drive players away.
Player encounters have the ability to drive people away? No way! </biggest sarcasm tag ever>
Honestly, it's the same carebear crap you people come up with all the time. When you don't get your way in-game you raise support tickets or start forum posts about this is exploiting or that is exploiting when what it actually is half the time is just game-play.
Someone has paid for a bunch of extra accounts (irrespective of lite sub or not) purportedly to make it easier for them to get into combat with other people (god forbid there's ever any combat!) and all you can do is complain about how this is unfair?
It's preposterous.
And don't feed me this rubbish about it's an unfair advantage to one group of players, because no fricken duh! Guilds have unfair advantages all the time, more money, better plugins, better allies, more buying power, more tridents. The whole challenge of starting a guild from scratch is that you have to compete with established guilds that have all these toys and advantages, and that's what makes a story like RED's such a cool one is that we started with 3 people and now we are the largest Serco Nationalist guild around.
Don't even get me started on the hypocrisy of complaining all the time that there is nobody online in the verse and then when somebody actually does something to promote a little bit of player interactive activity, you all act as if it's some great crime. It's pathetic.
Yeah? and how do you propose they enforce that? The distinction between a bot and a player is virtually non existent. Sure, this dude has conveniently named them SCIN-XX, but if we wanted to he could have guilded them and named them even after players that have deleted their accounts.
And so what if they have to be station bound and fully subbed? Are you going to stop them from being able to log in and out too?
If we follow you down the garden path where this is supposedly all my fault - I can very easily afford to run at least two subs and I can damn sure convince everybody else in RED that it's worthwhile to buy a second sub for the purposes of a bot network.. so all that leaves you with is exactly the same scenario as you have now.
It has the potential to drive players away.
Player encounters have the ability to drive people away? No way! </biggest sarcasm tag ever>
Honestly, it's the same carebear crap you people come up with all the time. When you don't get your way in-game you raise support tickets or start forum posts about this is exploiting or that is exploiting when what it actually is half the time is just game-play.
Someone has paid for a bunch of extra accounts (irrespective of lite sub or not) purportedly to make it easier for them to get into combat with other people (god forbid there's ever any combat!) and all you can do is complain about how this is unfair?
It's preposterous.
And don't feed me this rubbish about it's an unfair advantage to one group of players, because no fricken duh! Guilds have unfair advantages all the time, more money, better plugins, better allies, more buying power, more tridents. The whole challenge of starting a guild from scratch is that you have to compete with established guilds that have all these toys and advantages, and that's what makes a story like RED's such a cool one is that we started with 3 people and now we are the largest Serco Nationalist guild around.
Don't even get me started on the hypocrisy of complaining all the time that there is nobody online in the verse and then when somebody actually does something to promote a little bit of player interactive activity, you all act as if it's some great crime. It's pathetic.
I understand that I am new around these parts and don't really have as strong of a say in matters such as this, but I am also strongly opposed to these types of bots. Having playing characters that run an addon to share location information with other players of the same guild/nation is genius and great RP. Having dozens of bots automate this for you is plain abuse. If there is not a player physically controlling the VO client, then it's straight and simple automation, which should not be allowed.
Forcing the bots to get a full subscription is also iffy. It sets the awful precedent that 1) having more money lets your guild get away with shit, 2) botting is okay, but only if you're a full subscriber, and worst of all, 3) that GS is willing to go lax on the rules so long as they are making considerable profit from it.
FWIW, I have a long experience with MMOs and botting. I've written some incredibly complex bots for some of the most popular games. It still astounds me just how powerful and permissive the VO plugin API is. The fact that these bots can even be written purely using plugins goes to show that. Maybe it is time to start restricting the API a bit?
Edit: also, I can't believe banning the IRC bot is even in consideration. It really is an invaluable resource to everyone. I can't be online 24/7, but it is great to know that I can keep updated on current happenings, respond to any mentions of me, etc. It is an entirely different class from spy bots.
Forcing the bots to get a full subscription is also iffy. It sets the awful precedent that 1) having more money lets your guild get away with shit, 2) botting is okay, but only if you're a full subscriber, and worst of all, 3) that GS is willing to go lax on the rules so long as they are making considerable profit from it.
FWIW, I have a long experience with MMOs and botting. I've written some incredibly complex bots for some of the most popular games. It still astounds me just how powerful and permissive the VO plugin API is. The fact that these bots can even be written purely using plugins goes to show that. Maybe it is time to start restricting the API a bit?
Edit: also, I can't believe banning the IRC bot is even in consideration. It really is an invaluable resource to everyone. I can't be online 24/7, but it is great to know that I can keep updated on current happenings, respond to any mentions of me, etc. It is an entirely different class from spy bots.
Why not just force player to log on through the graphic interface only?
It is an entirely different class from spy bots.
No, it isn't. Itan use that bot to store purified xith to give them an advantage in ctc every week. It stays on 24/7 holding their xith and then they use a trident to transport it to score. They hide the bot way out in an empty sector so it's impossible to find.
Tgft's IRC bot in nyrius f6 is also a spy bot feeding them your location when you are there.
Family galactic travel in dau is also a spy bot that doubles as a role play device in dau.
There isn't really a bot in the verse that doesn't double as some sort of spy bot or distinct advantage and I'm pretty sure that's the idea. The logging in and out is very clever but unless you want to delete alts or make people who pay fill in captcha a simple macro achieves the same thing. I did the same thing with afk mining when I was a newb because I didn't know plugins could do it for you.
No, it isn't. Itan use that bot to store purified xith to give them an advantage in ctc every week. It stays on 24/7 holding their xith and then they use a trident to transport it to score. They hide the bot way out in an empty sector so it's impossible to find.
Tgft's IRC bot in nyrius f6 is also a spy bot feeding them your location when you are there.
Family galactic travel in dau is also a spy bot that doubles as a role play device in dau.
There isn't really a bot in the verse that doesn't double as some sort of spy bot or distinct advantage and I'm pretty sure that's the idea. The logging in and out is very clever but unless you want to delete alts or make people who pay fill in captcha a simple macro achieves the same thing. I did the same thing with afk mining when I was a newb because I didn't know plugins could do it for you.
I'm obviously against all of those things, TRS. I was specifically referring to draug's bot "IRC_", which afaik is pretty neutral and provides a great service to all of VO. I suppose one must also consider the scale of things, but some would argue that irrelevant (one IRC bot that doubles as a single spy bot, vs dozens of bots whose only purpose is spying).
You don't need a CAPTCHA to fix it -- just break plugins ability to login/logout. Bots would then have to rely on third party programs to do so, which would result in a ban.
You don't need a CAPTCHA to fix it -- just break plugins ability to login/logout. Bots would then have to rely on third party programs to do so, which would result in a ban.
So am I Alexandria, but when I became a nationalist and discovered that itan was using the bot to gain an advantage in ctc, I called it cheating and said they better remove it. They all laughed and told me I was being ridiculous and that if I had a problem with it I could go and make my own bot.
It's the same with these bots, every solution proposed to get rid of them has some sort of adverse effect on the normal usability of the game by regular players. The problem with it all is neither PaK nor anybody else has actually managed to provide a reason that they should be removed except the fact that somebody might come and shoot them as a result and they don't like that. If you don't want people to shoot at you why are ya even here? There are plenty of space games you can play where people can't shoot at ya or that don't have a beautiful sandbox plugin API for people to make bots with.
Putting silly limits on bot networks, aside from being a practical nightmare to enforce completely limits the sandboxosity (that's right, sandboxosity) of the game which is a big part of the whole point of VO.
So someone has made a big honking spybot network, either start writing a bot finder bot or start hiring escorts to protect your convoys or make your own spybot network and start fighting back.
It's the same with these bots, every solution proposed to get rid of them has some sort of adverse effect on the normal usability of the game by regular players. The problem with it all is neither PaK nor anybody else has actually managed to provide a reason that they should be removed except the fact that somebody might come and shoot them as a result and they don't like that. If you don't want people to shoot at you why are ya even here? There are plenty of space games you can play where people can't shoot at ya or that don't have a beautiful sandbox plugin API for people to make bots with.
Putting silly limits on bot networks, aside from being a practical nightmare to enforce completely limits the sandboxosity (that's right, sandboxosity) of the game which is a big part of the whole point of VO.
So someone has made a big honking spybot network, either start writing a bot finder bot or start hiring escorts to protect your convoys or make your own spybot network and start fighting back.
Except, as I said, it gives huge benefits to the guilds that can afford to run expensive bot networks. Someone shouldn't have that big of an advantage over other players because they can afford to pay for 20 accounts. On top of that, it's automation -- pure and simple. If I made a tradebot that automated every part of trading, should I be banned? Of course I should. Automation on that scale cannot be allowed in an MMO.
There are combat plugins that automate your firing for you, toggle aa really fast for you, mining plugins that automate jettison so you can afk mine, there are plugins that automatically track and distribute the latest trade data across a vast network, all of these things seem wrong for an mmo, but I think of VO as something unique, not just another mmo. Automation is not new here it's a feature that the devs have successfully embraced.
We are better than just banning things that one group of players doesn't like. And if I may offer some advice, you are best leaving your other mmo preconceptions at the door, because they tend to do a disservice to the experience you get here.
We are better than just banning things that one group of players doesn't like. And if I may offer some advice, you are best leaving your other mmo preconceptions at the door, because they tend to do a disservice to the experience you get here.
I'd be fine with these bots except they are logging in and out to abuse the 6 characters and therefore extend their reach considerably.
Keep them to one character, and PAY for them. You don't get to monitor points of space for free.
Otherwise, I don't care. But don't you dare create free bots, abuse the system and then complain that we're at fault. Because we pay for the bots. Shut up and do the same.
Keep them to one character, and PAY for them. You don't get to monitor points of space for free.
Otherwise, I don't care. But don't you dare create free bots, abuse the system and then complain that we're at fault. Because we pay for the bots. Shut up and do the same.
I wouldn't have as much issue with it if they were limited to 1 bot per account, yeah. I still strongly oppose it, but not as bad.
TRS: practically all automation in VO still requires at least some kind of human interaction. I guess you can AFK mine for hours on end, sure, but the roid will get so hot that it's basically pointless (not to mention you are opening yourself up to an attack, which will kill your bot entirely without TRUE automation).
The spybots require absolutely no human interaction whatsoever. They are true dedicated bots, the purest form of automation. AFAIK nothing else in VO comes close to that.
TRS: practically all automation in VO still requires at least some kind of human interaction. I guess you can AFK mine for hours on end, sure, but the roid will get so hot that it's basically pointless (not to mention you are opening yourself up to an attack, which will kill your bot entirely without TRUE automation).
The spybots require absolutely no human interaction whatsoever. They are true dedicated bots, the purest form of automation. AFAIK nothing else in VO comes close to that.
So Alexandria? NPCs are purely automaton. Should we ban them too?