...the marauder is extremely unbalanced. I flew one yesterday with a heavy engine, and it felt like a vulture with a med. A cargo ship should not be this agile... I wondered how all those traders could turn round and fight back with such vehemence, and now I know. Because they have 16 cargo in their hold and good agility, whilst having an extra 4000 hull points over the ship intended to take them down. Ie, its the rocket rammer's dream ship.
If you think the marauder is completely fine as it is, say so. But at the moment, I dont think its right.

...station nuking is still happening. What needs to be done is to remove the avalon torpedo from the game entirely until it has a use outside fireworks and exploits... I mean when we actually have larger ships they can be used on. But right now, all they are doing is providing an easy way out for people who dont want to tackle opponents head-on.

The Maud is fine just the way it is....maybe rocket-ramming needs to be addressed, not the Maud....

Avalons need to go....either that or make a SIMPLE fix to get rid of the possibility of exploiting...wouldnt be that hard...

I suppose the point of the Marauder being such a capable ship is down to the fact it's a special. What I would like to see is a greater reward for those who fly the Centaur, at the moment I see the ship as nothing but a flying coffin - practically everyone is in an Atlas or Marauder which are far less risky prospects - so why not reward the player willing to take those risks by giving the Centaur a greater cargo capacity.

As I see it the Maud is the low risk trading option, like Dave points out it is more than capable of looking after itself in a fight, but then if I see someone in a Maud looking for a fight I more often than not would choose to keep out of their way simply because of the facts Dave pointed out. I think Alien got it right on the head when he said it was more a Sunflare problem than one with the Maud itself.

Definately agree about the Avalons, they are entirely redundant at the moment and only lead to exploitation and grief for everyone at this state of the test. They do, however, look very pretty :q

- and, and_but_red!, and_only_gold!

Whoa whoa whoa...if we are going to knock down the maud's agility lets just make the valk agility slow so that the traders can get away.

The maud is a big ship and easy to hit, I think it's great that pirates in valks have to take some caution when chasing down a maud because yes it can turn around and blow you out of the water.

You also said "heavy engine" who uses a heavy engine to trade?

Station nuking blah blah blah...for the last and FINAL time...it is a VAILD tactic. UncleDave it is your stupidity for hanging around the dock waiting for someone to comeout. The nukes can only really hurt you if your within 250m so that means your basicly sitting or trying to dock. If someone is nuking then shoot some stuff like ENERGY weapons instead of sunflares they will dock and u will have a good 5-10 seconds where you can dock.

I've been killed many times by nukers and when it happens I say to my self DUH...of course he's gonna nuke stupidy on my part for not looking if the dock is clear.

But SF i'm all out of sunflares and he's still nuking what should I do? Unload those sunflares and select a weapon that requires some SKILL...what makes me sick is all you complain about station nuking and station mining...Ohh the mines we can't stop him because we only have rockets on board...well then your stupid...if you can't demine because of that well then too bad.

SF, I seem to recall you and others complaining when Red was using Avalons in the Promy (back when they had an 80m range)...why are you now defending station nuking? It's essentially the same thing - you have no chance to get away because you don't even know they're nearby with intent to nuke [they could be docking just like you]. At least with Red Promy-nuking, you could see the Promy fly up and know it was probably hostile.

I agree the Marauder needs to be affected some...I think it's the only special that hasn't really been affected (and, IMNSHO, that's because of the fact that most of Gold is just a bunch of whiny @$$h0les out to take over the game - but that's just my opinion). Drop the hull or the agility - NOW.

Yes, the Maud is unbalanced. Yes, the Valk is also. No, I don't like it and never have. No, it is not just the rockets that are a problem. Valks and Mauds are plenty dangerous with dual and tri gauss as well, but you don't see alot of tri guass on Mauds mostly I think because most people are mounting the fast recharge on them and the fast recharge doesn't have good synergy with multiple energy weapons.

With the exception of one point, I basically agree with Starfreeze and that might be a first. If your weapon load out causes you to run out of ammo continually and forces you therefore to go dock with the station regularly, then well you should expect to get ambushed when going to the station.

"...select a weapon that requires some SKILL"

Oh please. That's really lame and I'm getting tired of hearing it. There is no correllation between use of rockets and skill. There isn't a whole lot of skill involved in using energy weapons unless you've turned autoaim off and never use it, and how many people have actually done that? Energy weapons are comparitively simple to use compared with rockets - they go fast enough that you can shoot them at the target no matter how you are moving and still expect to threaten the target, they never blow up in your face, the game automatically aims them for you, you don't have to lead the target nearly as much, and there is no consequence for missing because you never run out of ammo. And now that the energy usage on them is comparitively low you don't even have to be that efficient with your shot selection.

Note that I'm not saying that 'rocket jocks are more skilled than people using energy weapons', either. I'm just get sick and tired of hearing everyone's responce to everyone else being these stupid ad hominem attacks.

Can we possibly accept that even if they aren't playing the game just like we do that maybe they are still playing it 'right'?

Well if any of you remember the engine stats then it makes sense that a Marauder would be turning that fast with a heavy engine.

And leave it alone. limit the number of rocket ports if you have to, but don't nerf the Marauder.

Cargo ships are SUPPOSED to have more HP than fighters, at least in any normal universe. All of you who want the Maud changed are trying to ENCOURAGE and SUSTAIN pirating as it is.

Think about what you're saying.

Celkan: yes, I agree - leave the mararauder alone, valks and marauders are nearly equal.

On the other hand, though the prometheus needs to be beefed up again - right now, gold and blues have very good special ships whereas the prometheus is good for nothing - and it's barely used. The balance of valk vs. prom or marauder vs. prom is just not right - right now the prom is an easy target.

Regards,
Mark (Commander Jameson)

"But SF i'm all out of sunflares and he's still nuking what should I do? Unload those sunflares and select a weapon that requires some SKILL...what makes me sick is all you complain about station nuking and station mining...Ohh the mines we can't stop him because we only have rockets on board...well then your stupid...if you can't demine because of that well then too bad."
---------------------

i've hit mines dead on with sunflares. all that's required is careful aim. as for rockets not requiring skill, that's a load of bulls**t. as another user pointed out, there are some energy weapons that autoaim. you also have to lead the target more with rockets. and, if they're too close, they kill you too. seems to me the "skilled pilots" don't want to dodge rockets anymore. learned to dodge rockets. it's not all that hard at medium to long range. i've done it in my centaur. and if you're stupid enough to let a "rocket rammer" get too close then you've only got yourself to blame. dammit, when the hell did people's IQs drop to the point that they can't even adapt anymore? all i hear anymore is whining, moaning, and bitching. if you don't like something, you have two choices: do something about it, or leave.

ummm..... There is auto aim? That explains way too much.

marauder is just fine, Its used to deliver cargo and escape pirates and npc's.

as for rocket ramming. I get teh wrong end of that all the time... who cares... all above is a legit tactic. Thats why I have the marauder, Its great for getting me out of such situations.

My only complaint about the avilon torps is that it has no tracking. Somthing that powerful/expensive/big should have somthing else besides fire and forget.... but I keep hearing this autoaim thing... all i know is I will who*e it when and if I find out how to turn it on, heck I might just be a challange to defete.

sorry I hit refresh. =8^P

ShortTermParking: Autoaim is always on. I'm assuming that its already on for you. Turning it off involves a rather obscure console command that you probably wouldn't have stumbled upon by accident.

For the record 'fire and forget' means that the weapon continues to track the target using its own onboard sensors and intelligence packages. 'Fire and forget' weapons are smart. This is as opposed to guided weapons which are radar guided, wire guided, camera guided, laser guided, or otherwise require the firing vehical to assist the weapon to its target. For a weapon to be 'fire and forget' it has to be guided. An unguided weapon like the Avalon is 'fire and hope'. And no, I don't think it should be guided however realistic that that might be. Realisticly it should accelerate at 50-60 m/s^2 with no top speed _and_ be guided, but that wouldn't make for a good game IMO.

Finally, I'm getting tired of hearing about 'cargo ships should have more hit points than fighters'. Only because they do in other video games you play? I'm sorry, but realitively speaking a 727 or a C-130 is just as easy to bring down as a F-16 or a F-22. Neither plane is armored. 30mm shells will just as likely peirce hydualics, engines, fuel tanks, avionics, and the cabin in one as in the other. Fires and explosions are probably equally likely. The ammount of damage done by a single SAM rocket is more than capable of rendering either non-functional. An AAM will tear the wing off a C-130 and fill the immediate vicinity with an aerosole of exploding jet fuel just as easily as it will a F-15. Realistically speaking, the weapons should be basically one shot = one kill, not the least of which being that in space any weapon less than a nuclear one is pointlessly small.

Perhaps if we were talking about a A-10, then we could talk about enhanced durability, but that would be another military craft wouldn't it?

Ships are given more hit points than some others because this is a game.

Isn't the Prom more like an A-10?

Balancing specials,
Ok at the moment the 3 specials are not balanced with the other ships. A fair number of people would like to see that happen (including myself), but I'm going to post assuming that it is not happening.

The valk has been brought down such that it's reasonable to fight against with a non-special ship. It only has 1.25x the vults hull and is much easier to hit (with energy). It is still better than the vult but not amazingly so.

The marauder on the other hand does not have another trade ship anywhere near it. The centaur is too easy for any other ship to take down for it to be an effective trader. I'm not sure about the atlas... but I've found it is also easy to kill and it has low agility. Which leaves you with the bus as the only other ship that can hold more than 4 cargo with med agility. There really isn't any comparison between the marauder and any other trader.

So there are two things that can be done. A) make the marauder worse, and/or B) make other trade ships better. I personally think both should be done.

Suggested changes (after change)

Marauder:
1 less small. (total 2)

Centaur:
2 less large, 1 more small. (2s)
up the agility to med
reduce the mass (same as marauder)
reduce the hull by 4000 (10000)

Atlas:
1 less large (1s)
up the agility to high
reduce the mass (a little worse than the vult)
reduce the hull by 2000 (6000)
[possibly] reduce cargo by 2 (10)

This would balance the trade ships, and give them all uses. The atlas could be used as a blockade runner, with the ability to run from most ships, but with the draw back of having the same hull as a bus. The centaur would be a reasonable trader with a good chance of excaping fights. The marauder would be the more expecive version of the centaur, 2 more cargo and 40% more hull for a little over twice the price. It also would no longer be as effective a fighting ship.

I suggested the "pizza cutter" have 2 small ports and 1 prox mine built in... no more tri rockets or tri gauss.

Ok, in my opinion, i think EVERY nation will be able to buy EVERY type of ship in there home sector(s). But, instead of them being the same for each nation, they will be different, for instance, a gold nation ship will have less weapon slots on there ships for more cargo space, red nation ships could give up agility for more health or weapons, blue ships could give up a weapon space for more agility.

Note i said type, type doesn't mean they will look the same...

Do you think every nation is going to design its ships the same way? Some frigates might have many weapon slots but steer like a cow, some might have not too many weapon slots but be able to go faster, some might sacrifice speed for health. etc.

The avalon has it's place, to take down (a) large groups of ships and (b) to take down large ships, like the frigate in s16.

The maud is the ubership... But no one cares...

Now, on to Eldrad's post...

Maurauder:
1 less small
reduce hull by 2000

Centaur: NO! The large is the only thng that lets it live. Make it like this:
1s + 1L
Agility Medium-Low
Mass halfway between current and that of maurauder
keep hull same

Atlas:
2s
Medium-High Agility
Mass between current and vult
Hull same
Cargo to 10


Your changes are too drastic and result in no large weapons. If you'd ever flown a centaur, you'd know that the only thing that makes it usable with such a physically large hull is its large port[s]. Don't take them away. And dropping the Atlas in hull is a no-no. The maurauder, however, does require to lose hullpoints.

[EDIT TO SL]
Don't like the everything-in-homesector-idea. Actually, I think only the bus and the nation special should be available in homesector, with more and more ships becoming available the farther from homesectors you go. So it looks like this to a blue:

1. Bus, Valk
4. Bus, Valk, Centurion, Atlas
7 + 8. Bus, Centurion, Vult, Atlas, Warthog
14. Bus, Centurion,Vult,Atlas, Warthog,Raganorak,Centaur
5+10.Bus,Centurion,Vult,Atlas,Warthog,Raganorak,Centaur
15. Bus, Centurion,Vult,Atlas,Warthog,Raganorak,Centaur,Furie
11. Bus, Centurion,Vult,Atlas,Warthog,Raganorak,Centaur
13. Bus, Centurion,Vult,Atlas,Warthog,Raganorak,Centaur
17. Bus, Centurion,Vult,Atlas,Warthog,Raganorak,Centaur, Furie, Prometheus (63kc), Maurauder(63kc), Valk(21kc)
Bus, Centurion,Vult,Atlas,Warthog,Raganorak,Centaur, Furie, Prometheus(21kc), Maurauder(21kc),Valk(21kc)

Flip that as you will for the other nations.

while we're alternately bitching about the maud and the valk....

did we forget about how gimpified the prom is right now? whats goin on with that? IMO its now a useless ship and is driving reds away in droves.
Before we start tweaking the other specials, how about paying some attention to the serco's needs. We seem to be getting the long hard shaft. We're far away from any half decent trade route (14/18 is NOT) and might as well not have a special ship. Whats the deal?

it's too late and I'm falling asleep but something caught my eye:
>Centaur:
>2 less large, 1 more small. (2s)
>up the agility to med
>reduce the mass (same as marauder)
>reduce the hull by 4000 (10000)

>The centaur would be a reasonable trader with a good chance of excaping fights.

you must be drunk. how long will this ship live in current universe? no way. NO BLOODY WAY!

I know randomize, it's useless in that state. Worse than the current Atlas by FAR.