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I totally agree with your views on mmorpgs Spell, its good to encourage people teaming up, and as I said I have absolutely nothing against taking escorts, its just that I wish there would also be some other way for high levels players.
Your speed/armor suggestion sounds as a good variant, too. High armor lets you time to try do do something when with escort or without.
Your speed/armor suggestion sounds as a good variant, too. High armor lets you time to try do do something when with escort or without.
I see both perspectives here, but
if people are capable of doing moth runs solo, then there's no incentive to group up. You will ALWAYS make more money with the least number of ships in the voy, and the least number of other players to pay.
I think your survivability odds will greatly improve if you use something like an Aggresso centaur to do runs instead.
you'll have to do roughly 3 times as many runs (giving us pirates more air time), but you'll be in better control.
if people are capable of doing moth runs solo, then there's no incentive to group up. You will ALWAYS make more money with the least number of ships in the voy, and the least number of other players to pay.
I think your survivability odds will greatly improve if you use something like an Aggresso centaur to do runs instead.
you'll have to do roughly 3 times as many runs (giving us pirates more air time), but you'll be in better control.
Awesome - I agree with most of what is being said here.
Speed reduction = good
Team play = really good
Armor nerf = bad
I would be fine with it if the moth's armor was increased back up to what it used to be. 1 pirate vs 1 moth = moth dead, but 1 pirate vs 1 moth + 1 escort = pirate would have a much more difficult time.
Traders are probably going to complain for a while about the moth. They're forced to either cut back profits by hiring escorts or ACTUALLY PAYING PIRATES, complete boring trade routes in protected space, or use another smaller ship to run around in grey space. I think almost any of these ways will produce less money - which I think is a good thing. People generally make too much money anyways. The best part I see about it is that people are forced to make a choice now instead of always being in a moth.
Speed reduction = good
Team play = really good
Armor nerf = bad
I would be fine with it if the moth's armor was increased back up to what it used to be. 1 pirate vs 1 moth = moth dead, but 1 pirate vs 1 moth + 1 escort = pirate would have a much more difficult time.
Traders are probably going to complain for a while about the moth. They're forced to either cut back profits by hiring escorts or ACTUALLY PAYING PIRATES, complete boring trade routes in protected space, or use another smaller ship to run around in grey space. I think almost any of these ways will produce less money - which I think is a good thing. People generally make too much money anyways. The best part I see about it is that people are forced to make a choice now instead of always being in a moth.
I've often thought that what was needed for the "leader/employer" was a way to put the wages into an escrow account, until certain conditions are met, and release the money to the payee's....
This would allow certain unsavory people with reputations of untrustworthyness to hire escorts, run contracts, etc....
as well as allowing untrusting people to hire into a group run....just thought to mention it after reading all this...
This would allow certain unsavory people with reputations of untrustworthyness to hire escorts, run contracts, etc....
as well as allowing untrusting people to hire into a group run....just thought to mention it after reading all this...
I still wonder why incarnate did an armourreduction... he had the information of how easilly the damned tradervoys/ctcvoys die even if protected by a couple escorts. Heck on occasion some ctc-ers could kill the ctccarrier, grab the ctccargo and get out with 2 people defending/escorting them...
However the reduction to 120 and the increase to 160k hull might be a tad over the top.
Maybe more something along the lines of present moth raising armour to aroundish 30 - 35k decreasing cu's to around 80 - 90. Then add another version of the moth at around 13 - 16 trade with 120 -130 speed and aroundish 120k hull (as a way to encourage teamtrading) and 130 - 150 cu.
However the reduction to 120 and the increase to 160k hull might be a tad over the top.
Maybe more something along the lines of present moth raising armour to aroundish 30 - 35k decreasing cu's to around 80 - 90. Then add another version of the moth at around 13 - 16 trade with 120 -130 speed and aroundish 120k hull (as a way to encourage teamtrading) and 130 - 150 cu.
I just completed a little experiment on my own with the moth. Both times I announced my planned route and the times I was leaving.
The first run I took had a moth with 2 proxy mines and a fc batt. For this run I did direct route planning (wh to wh no deviations) and I was attacked in the first sector out of Odia M-14. I took off running and was able to slightly injure my attacker, but after constant attack the pirate finally took me down while i was warping through the Edras wh.
The second attempt I flew from Edras to Odia only this time i had 120 cu of consumer electronics. Again I flew using direct route planning but if in an emergency I would change my route and sector hop to avoid my attackers. Around Bractus I was attacked by two pirates. One in a valk and the other in a corvus maud. Upon the first ship being within 1000m I started to plan my escape route, 4 jumps (only 3 would be needed but I was being overly cautious). The first ship had flares and the second I saw the telltale yellow blip of the flare I adjusted my flight path by no more than 10 degrees and began to turbo. Due to the weight of the moth this produces a rather erratic new flight path and the flares cruised right by me, not a one exploding. A few laser bursts did hit me but a few proxy mines killed the attacker as he had to get rather close to use his lasers. One pirate down one to go. I was now at 3000m and jumped out. I warped around my 4 jumps and planned to arrive on the opposite side of the wh as compared to my attacker whom I assume took a direct route. When I was 1000m away from the wh my attacker was 2500~m away from my ship, no way he could hit me even if he flew directly towards me. I was now in Odia space and my attacker right behind me again, and through dropping prox mines and dodging rockets I was able to not be killed. I was brought down to 31% though (62% after the first attack, also notice a theme here with the jumping and getting massively injured?). I again jumped a few extra jumps to make sure that the pirate would not be directly behind me when I warped out to the station and made it back alive with all my cargo 3 pairs of proxy mines left and 31%.
In neither of the trials did I ever attempt to repair my ship, even though NO time limit is worth the loss of a ship and its cargo.
The moral of the story is this, fly smart. You are being stalked by very smart predators, plan ahead and don't just start running like a spooked animal. You have the ability and skill to avoid any enemy, you just have to make use of that.
The first run I took had a moth with 2 proxy mines and a fc batt. For this run I did direct route planning (wh to wh no deviations) and I was attacked in the first sector out of Odia M-14. I took off running and was able to slightly injure my attacker, but after constant attack the pirate finally took me down while i was warping through the Edras wh.
The second attempt I flew from Edras to Odia only this time i had 120 cu of consumer electronics. Again I flew using direct route planning but if in an emergency I would change my route and sector hop to avoid my attackers. Around Bractus I was attacked by two pirates. One in a valk and the other in a corvus maud. Upon the first ship being within 1000m I started to plan my escape route, 4 jumps (only 3 would be needed but I was being overly cautious). The first ship had flares and the second I saw the telltale yellow blip of the flare I adjusted my flight path by no more than 10 degrees and began to turbo. Due to the weight of the moth this produces a rather erratic new flight path and the flares cruised right by me, not a one exploding. A few laser bursts did hit me but a few proxy mines killed the attacker as he had to get rather close to use his lasers. One pirate down one to go. I was now at 3000m and jumped out. I warped around my 4 jumps and planned to arrive on the opposite side of the wh as compared to my attacker whom I assume took a direct route. When I was 1000m away from the wh my attacker was 2500~m away from my ship, no way he could hit me even if he flew directly towards me. I was now in Odia space and my attacker right behind me again, and through dropping prox mines and dodging rockets I was able to not be killed. I was brought down to 31% though (62% after the first attack, also notice a theme here with the jumping and getting massively injured?). I again jumped a few extra jumps to make sure that the pirate would not be directly behind me when I warped out to the station and made it back alive with all my cargo 3 pairs of proxy mines left and 31%.
In neither of the trials did I ever attempt to repair my ship, even though NO time limit is worth the loss of a ship and its cargo.
The moral of the story is this, fly smart. You are being stalked by very smart predators, plan ahead and don't just start running like a spooked animal. You have the ability and skill to avoid any enemy, you just have to make use of that.
glad to see you did it Silent. It sounds we are going in the right direction, with nice variants propositions, and the proof that with skill one can still survive. I'd love to reiter the experiment and hear more feedback, though, and see if we just have 2% chances or a bit more. On the first case, moth still needs tweaking. On the second case, its up to me to make my levels meaningful.
This doesn't remove that I just can't wait to see those other new ships that still remain in the cardboards, with the big hope of a high lvl freighter.
This doesn't remove that I just can't wait to see those other new ships that still remain in the cardboards, with the big hope of a high lvl freighter.
the real question is "what is the moth supposed to be?" now, i'm against making it slow and hevily armored because i don't think it caries enough cargo to warent that role.
as such i support a lightly armored moth with a low (but not too low) top speed. The moth has always been catchable, so it doesn't need to be slower.
personaly i think a good pirat shold have about a 50% chance of killing a good and well armed moth. grey space should be dangerous, but if traders should have to hire escorts to be assured of saftey then pirats should have to work together to be assured of victory as well.
and silentsuicide,
flairs probably aren't the best choice for moth hunting. as i recall when pirats started using a positron-hog of some sort they had better results even with the old moth. so i wouldn't call your experament proof of a 50% success rate against pirats of similar skill to your own.
as such i support a lightly armored moth with a low (but not too low) top speed. The moth has always been catchable, so it doesn't need to be slower.
personaly i think a good pirat shold have about a 50% chance of killing a good and well armed moth. grey space should be dangerous, but if traders should have to hire escorts to be assured of saftey then pirats should have to work together to be assured of victory as well.
and silentsuicide,
flairs probably aren't the best choice for moth hunting. as i recall when pirats started using a positron-hog of some sort they had better results even with the old moth. so i wouldn't call your experament proof of a 50% success rate against pirats of similar skill to your own.
Yeh... it doesn't sound like the pirates chasing you really knew what they were doing...
Again (quote: Cunjo, from http://tinyurl.com/g5phd ):
>>>>>
Ideally, we would have different varients - a heavy, slow, well-armored one with a larger hold (say, 130u?) which would need escorts in grey, and perhaps a lighter, faster, less-armored, less efficient one with only 1 L-port and 100u of cargo, which would be able to hold its own and escape in grey, but wouldn't be rewarding in bulk missions.
Consider:
Behemoth MKI
Basic
Level: -/-/-/8/4
Armor: 35000
Cargo: 120cu
Weapons: 2 large ports
Mass: 30000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 500 N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 18.0 Nm
Turbo Speed: 180 m/s
Turbo Energy: 50/sec
Behemoth MK II
Light Varient
Level: -/-/-/9/4
Armor: 25000
Cargo: 100cu
Weapons: 1 large port
Mass: 27000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 500 N
Max Speed: 70 m/s
Spin Torque: 18.5 Nm
Turbo Speed: 190 m/s
Turbo Energy: 50/sec
Behemoth MK III
Heavy Hauler
Level: -/-/-/11/4
Armor: 60000
Cargo: 140cu
Weapons: 2 large ports
Mass: 32000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 550 N
Max Speed: 60 m/s
Spin Torque: 17.5 Nm
Turbo Speed: 150 m/s
Turbo Energy: 50/sec
Tunguska Mining Behemoth
Mining Varient
Faction: +700 Tunguska
Level: 4/-/4/9/6
Armor: 40000
Cargo: 120cu
Weapons: 2 large ports, 1 small port
Mass: 32000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 550 N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 19.0 Nm
Turbo Speed: 170 m/s
Turbo Energy: 55/sec
I realize that there is a *lot* of variation there, but that should be a good thing, not bad. Each would have a distinct role, and each would be less overall-uber than the current moth; while the variations in cost/benefit areas are great, the overall balance should be about the same.
For reference against the current moth, see:
http://www.vo-wiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Behemoth
<<<<<
This way you would have versions that need an escort, yet can deliver lots of cargo (the MK III Heavy) or a lighter version you can fly and escape in yourself, but won't be useful for bulk runs because of the more limited cargo. (for reference, the thrust, rather than the top speed, was nerfed on the basic and most subsequent varients here, in addition to nerfs of Armor - all of them are less uber than the pre-nerf moth, but more practical than the current one)
and this is relatively old quote, yet it's still essentially the best reply to what many people are still suggesting... I've only made a few very minor modifications to the stats and list since the original posting.
>>>>>
Ideally, we would have different varients - a heavy, slow, well-armored one with a larger hold (say, 130u?) which would need escorts in grey, and perhaps a lighter, faster, less-armored, less efficient one with only 1 L-port and 100u of cargo, which would be able to hold its own and escape in grey, but wouldn't be rewarding in bulk missions.
Consider:
Behemoth MKI
Basic
Level: -/-/-/8/4
Armor: 35000
Cargo: 120cu
Weapons: 2 large ports
Mass: 30000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 500 N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 18.0 Nm
Turbo Speed: 180 m/s
Turbo Energy: 50/sec
Behemoth MK II
Light Varient
Level: -/-/-/9/4
Armor: 25000
Cargo: 100cu
Weapons: 1 large port
Mass: 27000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 500 N
Max Speed: 70 m/s
Spin Torque: 18.5 Nm
Turbo Speed: 190 m/s
Turbo Energy: 50/sec
Behemoth MK III
Heavy Hauler
Level: -/-/-/11/4
Armor: 60000
Cargo: 140cu
Weapons: 2 large ports
Mass: 32000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 550 N
Max Speed: 60 m/s
Spin Torque: 17.5 Nm
Turbo Speed: 150 m/s
Turbo Energy: 50/sec
Tunguska Mining Behemoth
Mining Varient
Faction: +700 Tunguska
Level: 4/-/4/9/6
Armor: 40000
Cargo: 120cu
Weapons: 2 large ports, 1 small port
Mass: 32000kg
Length: 34 m
Thrust: 550 N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 19.0 Nm
Turbo Speed: 170 m/s
Turbo Energy: 55/sec
I realize that there is a *lot* of variation there, but that should be a good thing, not bad. Each would have a distinct role, and each would be less overall-uber than the current moth; while the variations in cost/benefit areas are great, the overall balance should be about the same.
For reference against the current moth, see:
http://www.vo-wiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Behemoth
<<<<<
This way you would have versions that need an escort, yet can deliver lots of cargo (the MK III Heavy) or a lighter version you can fly and escape in yourself, but won't be useful for bulk runs because of the more limited cargo. (for reference, the thrust, rather than the top speed, was nerfed on the basic and most subsequent varients here, in addition to nerfs of Armor - all of them are less uber than the pre-nerf moth, but more practical than the current one)
and this is relatively old quote, yet it's still essentially the best reply to what many people are still suggesting... I've only made a few very minor modifications to the stats and list since the original posting.
>> Trading in grey space is not impossible. It's only impossible to do solo in a behemoth.
>> if traders should have to hire escorts to be assured of saftey then pirats should have to work together to be assured of victory as well.
This could be the best synthesis of what I originally thought.
>> if traders should have to hire escorts to be assured of saftey then pirats should have to work together to be assured of victory as well.
This could be the best synthesis of what I originally thought.
I have always depended on the kindness of strangers (and a little cash distribution) to travel solo in grey. I decided to see how this would work in the nerfed moth. Having warped into Sedina from Odia, I was immediately hailed by a familiar member of SYN. I slowed, as is my practice, to negotiate passage. With no warning, however, I was attacked and destroyed by member of CLM.
I'm not complaining, as pirates are pirates. However, this kind of conduct does tempt me to rethink my practice of greasing palms. Obviously, I have little incentive to pay CLM.
Perhaps the pirate guilds should give some thought to tactics before cutting off a potential source of income...
Broma-Ba Slick
I'm not complaining, as pirates are pirates. However, this kind of conduct does tempt me to rethink my practice of greasing palms. Obviously, I have little incentive to pay CLM.
Perhaps the pirate guilds should give some thought to tactics before cutting off a potential source of income...
Broma-Ba Slick
Broma, errm, you havent payed me once _ever_ and not to get into a CLM v TGFT bitchfight here, but hell, you guys want hails and chances to pay, even after totally ganking the snot out of us (with no hails) during one of your *trade escort runs* ? So its ok for you guys to attack stuff without hails why? Get off yer high horse my friend...
Well, anyways, back on topic, every time I kill a player flown moth recently, I almost feel bad for them... ... that isnt right!
Well, anyways, back on topic, every time I kill a player flown moth recently, I almost feel bad for them... ... that isnt right!
Now we moth pilots just need to dock and repair more often. No big whoop.
Yoda, I have no horse at all, let alone a high one. I don't recall you hailing me while I was solo in grey. I apologize for the slight.
I do understand now that my guild is KOS with yours, and for that reason I should expect to be Killed On Sight with no hail and no chance to pay. I'm not demanding a hail from anyone. It just seemed short-sighted to me.
From time to time, TGFT has announced escorted convoy runs to attract pirates as a kind of spontaneous event for VO members. I had no idea that this had caused offense to CLM. Perhaps our guilds could declare each other IOS (ignore on sight). That way, your guild won't have to worry about attacks from dangerous traders.
Broma-Ba Slick
I do understand now that my guild is KOS with yours, and for that reason I should expect to be Killed On Sight with no hail and no chance to pay. I'm not demanding a hail from anyone. It just seemed short-sighted to me.
From time to time, TGFT has announced escorted convoy runs to attract pirates as a kind of spontaneous event for VO members. I had no idea that this had caused offense to CLM. Perhaps our guilds could declare each other IOS (ignore on sight). That way, your guild won't have to worry about attacks from dangerous traders.
Broma-Ba Slick
Hows about we keep the KOS thing, and let obs worry about it? Which she wont, so ehum... :P and I dont just pirate gray! I pirate UiT and Serco and sometimes even Tani space too! I'm hard I am :)
Worry about what?? If we traders have to worry, no problem. I've sworn off of the moths anayways cuz "I'm too sexy for my moth" and I never liked how tight a fit the docking bays were.
Fear my 'tuar o'doom
Fear my 'tuar o'doom
oh Obs.. I could SOOO go there.. but I won't *struggles with self-restraint*
In other news, old moth = any fool and his brother can hit turbo, go, and if he DOES get a few hits taken, reroute to a station.
new moth = better drive that rig a little smarter... but can still get away with a little luck and/or skill..
i like the new one myself.. whats wrong with playing a twitch-based game that requires skill?
break19
In other news, old moth = any fool and his brother can hit turbo, go, and if he DOES get a few hits taken, reroute to a station.
new moth = better drive that rig a little smarter... but can still get away with a little luck and/or skill..
i like the new one myself.. whats wrong with playing a twitch-based game that requires skill?
break19
You know... this is going to make fattening the cows a *lot* more difficult... but also a *lot* more interesting.
I've flown pigs before (litterally)... I can do it again. :)~
I've flown pigs before (litterally)... I can do it again. :)~