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Well, i made a little experiment today. I took a few bulk missions with the new moth, in solo.First, its hard to survive more than 3-4 storms. Well, we always can repair.
Whats more annoying is that we can't survive a skilled pirate.It's now just impossible.
I have been trading for a long time now, and what i liked was trading solo in grey, *because* grey is filled with pirates, who make the trip worth it, game wise. You had to find the best ways to escape them, explore for shortcuts, learn how to use mines with efficiency, how to take advantage of occuring fights... When encountering skilled people, you could die or survive. Now, its gone.
I've been told, with more or less tact, to take escorts.
Well, I have absolutely nothing against escorts,and often take someone with me, but I am a bit disapointed of beeing dependant on those now.Why should trader players depend on other people, while fighters can play solo ? I like to be able to play by myself sometimes, and have the succes of a mission due to me, which I think is a standard gamer point of view. What's more, it seems to me that even with two or three escorts, you have no chance against a determinate team of pirates.
I've been told to trade with a centaur or a maud then.
Well, I think those are good ships at certain levels, but really lack capacity at higher ones. I wish I could do a 132 cu bulk in less than 3 runs when having reached trade 14. I am not sure to want to cross 6 systems for a 60 cu load. By the pirates side, it means less cargo taken for a kill, too.
I've been told to trade in deep nation space too.
Well, i also could trade on the morning, when everybody is asleep, but, i don't see any interest in just flying a ship from a point to another without meeting anyone. I presume pirates would quickly get bored by only meeting npcs traders in grey, I have the feeling its not what one can expect from a multiplayer game.
I have no anger against pirates, as I said, they are what make trading funny to my eyes.
Trying to be constructive, I have nothing against some tweaking of the moth's stats, but I think it should be thought again.
I think less armor, or less speed, so that you don't always survive sounds ok. But both in the same time lead to that you always die.
If speed/armor should remain unchanged, then we would need some way to defend, such as back launching missles, or 360° AGT, or whatever lets you a chance to fight despite your ships unmanoeuvrability.
I've read the moth post, and found there the idea of variants.
The moth as it is now, or with very few changes, could be a good trade 8 ship, that allows you to trade if you have escorts.
A moth MKII and MKIII could be available at higher trade, combat and weapons levels, and could allow you to trade by yourself in dangerous places, making higher profit. This could be achieved by other new ships, too.
I know its a pure trader point of view, and that most people focus on fight. What I found in VO is not only a fast fight space game, I also found great scifi immersion,and awesome RP basis. Sorry for the long post, but i'd like to cite the introduction page :
"As pilots in the Vendetta universe, the progression of the player's character will be up to each individual. The starting Nation affiliation gives the player certain benefits and liabilities that fit the particular culture of that Nation, but this merely serves as a starting point for the character. If the user wishes to be a peaceful trader, military pilot, guard for hire, dastardly pirate, or whatever the player imagines, this is all up to the behaviour and play style of the user."
This paragraph must have been one of the major reasons that made me try this game, and what it says *has* been why I've been playing for so long now. Today I have the feeling the high level solo trader way of play has been broken a leg. I hope its just a momentary problem of tweaking, and am glad to be given the possibily to express that point of view.
Thanks for all ^_^
edit : oh, there is that too :
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/13299#167450
Whats more annoying is that we can't survive a skilled pirate.It's now just impossible.
I have been trading for a long time now, and what i liked was trading solo in grey, *because* grey is filled with pirates, who make the trip worth it, game wise. You had to find the best ways to escape them, explore for shortcuts, learn how to use mines with efficiency, how to take advantage of occuring fights... When encountering skilled people, you could die or survive. Now, its gone.
I've been told, with more or less tact, to take escorts.
Well, I have absolutely nothing against escorts,and often take someone with me, but I am a bit disapointed of beeing dependant on those now.Why should trader players depend on other people, while fighters can play solo ? I like to be able to play by myself sometimes, and have the succes of a mission due to me, which I think is a standard gamer point of view. What's more, it seems to me that even with two or three escorts, you have no chance against a determinate team of pirates.
I've been told to trade with a centaur or a maud then.
Well, I think those are good ships at certain levels, but really lack capacity at higher ones. I wish I could do a 132 cu bulk in less than 3 runs when having reached trade 14. I am not sure to want to cross 6 systems for a 60 cu load. By the pirates side, it means less cargo taken for a kill, too.
I've been told to trade in deep nation space too.
Well, i also could trade on the morning, when everybody is asleep, but, i don't see any interest in just flying a ship from a point to another without meeting anyone. I presume pirates would quickly get bored by only meeting npcs traders in grey, I have the feeling its not what one can expect from a multiplayer game.
I have no anger against pirates, as I said, they are what make trading funny to my eyes.
Trying to be constructive, I have nothing against some tweaking of the moth's stats, but I think it should be thought again.
I think less armor, or less speed, so that you don't always survive sounds ok. But both in the same time lead to that you always die.
If speed/armor should remain unchanged, then we would need some way to defend, such as back launching missles, or 360° AGT, or whatever lets you a chance to fight despite your ships unmanoeuvrability.
I've read the moth post, and found there the idea of variants.
The moth as it is now, or with very few changes, could be a good trade 8 ship, that allows you to trade if you have escorts.
A moth MKII and MKIII could be available at higher trade, combat and weapons levels, and could allow you to trade by yourself in dangerous places, making higher profit. This could be achieved by other new ships, too.
I know its a pure trader point of view, and that most people focus on fight. What I found in VO is not only a fast fight space game, I also found great scifi immersion,and awesome RP basis. Sorry for the long post, but i'd like to cite the introduction page :
"As pilots in the Vendetta universe, the progression of the player's character will be up to each individual. The starting Nation affiliation gives the player certain benefits and liabilities that fit the particular culture of that Nation, but this merely serves as a starting point for the character. If the user wishes to be a peaceful trader, military pilot, guard for hire, dastardly pirate, or whatever the player imagines, this is all up to the behaviour and play style of the user."
This paragraph must have been one of the major reasons that made me try this game, and what it says *has* been why I've been playing for so long now. Today I have the feeling the high level solo trader way of play has been broken a leg. I hope its just a momentary problem of tweaking, and am glad to be given the possibily to express that point of view.
Thanks for all ^_^
edit : oh, there is that too :
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/13299#167450
nioubi, this was a well thought out, coherent post with constructive criticism. Just the kind I like to see. In other words, don't sweat the length.
I have not run the gauntlet with a new moth yet but if this is true...
"Trying to be constructive, I have nothing against some tweaking of the moth's stats, but I think it should be thought again.
I think less armor, or less speed, so that you don't always survive sounds ok. But both lead to that you always die."
...then your suggestions are sound.
[edit] I'd like to give this a day or two exposure here before moving it to Suggestions.
I have not run the gauntlet with a new moth yet but if this is true...
"Trying to be constructive, I have nothing against some tweaking of the moth's stats, but I think it should be thought again.
I think less armor, or less speed, so that you don't always survive sounds ok. But both lead to that you always die."
...then your suggestions are sound.
[edit] I'd like to give this a day or two exposure here before moving it to Suggestions.
Well, with the moth as it was, I was never successfully pirated by less than 3 pirates. I frankly think it should be impossible to trade solo in grey space. If you want to trade in "safe" space, that's fine. But grey space is SUPPOSED to be scary and dangerous. Now it is.
I would say that sounds about right. Not much more else I can say that wasn't already said.
@ nioubi's post
@ nioubi's post
mhh, i'd say, now it is forbidden, not dangerous. In short, I think it should be dangerous, not impossible. If no one trades in grey, pirates will enjoy npcs traders, thats all.
Trading in "safe" space doesn't give you any more chances if you meet an original pirate there, too.
Trading in "safe" space doesn't give you any more chances if you meet an original pirate there, too.
I'd like to add the pirate point of view...
The moth was always an incredibly frustrating prey. The very high armor and rediculous speed made it impossible to solo pirate, and extremely difficult to group pirate. I remember one night where 6 of us, all very good pirates, spent 3 hours chasing a moth over the exact same route. Despite the numbers and skilled pilots, we were unable to destroy it once. The problem with the old moth was that unless the trader made a serious error (extremely serious, like, turned to fight) they were uncatchable. Even against skilled pirates the moth will survive 98% of the time.
Enter the 1.5.5 update. The moths top speed is reduced to 160 and armor was dropped to 20k. It initial tests, Shape was able to run me down in an EC 107 and cut my moth down to 50% in under 5 seconds. As a pirate, I love it! The moth is the big fat target that, in my opinion, it is supposed to be. But is it too much? I can see your perspective on the issue. I too agree that the armor reduction was unnecessary, but not for the same reason.
Any ship that is catchable is killable. From a pirates point of view, the only problem with the moth was that it could never be caught up to. It was way too fast for what it was. If the armor was returned to the 45k it was, you would still die under pirate attack, because we could still catch you.
From a gameplay point of view, I think the changes are perfect. When the moth was introduced it superceded the use of other dedicated trade vessels. They were obsolete, never used for trade, and rarely used for anything else, besides some players dedicated to the ships themselves (mystic mostly flies Mauds, I love the Atlas, for example). One of your complaints is having to make a 132cu procurement mission in more than 3 trips. I'm not sure how long you've been playing, but if you've been in the game since the pre moth days, you'll know that these missions were never adjusted to account for the new, larger capacity Moth. Flying large, long distance procurement missions in a Maud used to be the norm before the Moth was introduced.
In my opinion, as cargo capacity goes up, vulnerability should as well. That is what we're seeing, and I think it's for the better. Trading in grey space is not impossible. It's only impossible to do solo in a behemoth.
The moth was always an incredibly frustrating prey. The very high armor and rediculous speed made it impossible to solo pirate, and extremely difficult to group pirate. I remember one night where 6 of us, all very good pirates, spent 3 hours chasing a moth over the exact same route. Despite the numbers and skilled pilots, we were unable to destroy it once. The problem with the old moth was that unless the trader made a serious error (extremely serious, like, turned to fight) they were uncatchable. Even against skilled pirates the moth will survive 98% of the time.
Enter the 1.5.5 update. The moths top speed is reduced to 160 and armor was dropped to 20k. It initial tests, Shape was able to run me down in an EC 107 and cut my moth down to 50% in under 5 seconds. As a pirate, I love it! The moth is the big fat target that, in my opinion, it is supposed to be. But is it too much? I can see your perspective on the issue. I too agree that the armor reduction was unnecessary, but not for the same reason.
Any ship that is catchable is killable. From a pirates point of view, the only problem with the moth was that it could never be caught up to. It was way too fast for what it was. If the armor was returned to the 45k it was, you would still die under pirate attack, because we could still catch you.
From a gameplay point of view, I think the changes are perfect. When the moth was introduced it superceded the use of other dedicated trade vessels. They were obsolete, never used for trade, and rarely used for anything else, besides some players dedicated to the ships themselves (mystic mostly flies Mauds, I love the Atlas, for example). One of your complaints is having to make a 132cu procurement mission in more than 3 trips. I'm not sure how long you've been playing, but if you've been in the game since the pre moth days, you'll know that these missions were never adjusted to account for the new, larger capacity Moth. Flying large, long distance procurement missions in a Maud used to be the norm before the Moth was introduced.
In my opinion, as cargo capacity goes up, vulnerability should as well. That is what we're seeing, and I think it's for the better. Trading in grey space is not impossible. It's only impossible to do solo in a behemoth.
It's not impossible to trade in Grey.
It's simply not possible to make the kind of profit you were making before.
The moth is now a group ship.
If you want to trade safely get an Atlas.
That's like 34 some Cu right?
You were using it before the moth but now players have a hard time reverting back to the old ways.
It's simply not possible to make the kind of profit you were making before.
The moth is now a group ship.
If you want to trade safely get an Atlas.
That's like 34 some Cu right?
You were using it before the moth but now players have a hard time reverting back to the old ways.
Another pirate point of view... I cant speak for all the brethren in grey, but in most cases, if you pay a pirate, they will pretty much leave you be, and sometimes offer their protection during your run(s). With the moth changes this has become a viable option for the trader and a possible chance of monetary gain for the pirate.
I'm in two minds about the new moth, maybe cos I could kill the old ones 7 times out of 10 if they didnt have mines. Now anyone can kill em (the mines will still come in handy though...), and because they die so damn fast, I dont think escorts are going to be much help (maybe they can chase me down after, but I doubt they could stop me killing a moth), again, because it dies too fast.
Like Inc said, the games gunna be in a fluidic state for a while, as stats are played about with again to try find that *balance*, I'd agree with the general tone that cutting the moths speed was sufficient enough in making it a *valid* target, and its armour should be increased again, not only does this give a moth a small chance of getting away (changing course n running for a station, ect), its also giving any escorts time to react.
Anyways, time will tell I guess.
Like Inc said, the games gunna be in a fluidic state for a while, as stats are played about with again to try find that *balance*, I'd agree with the general tone that cutting the moths speed was sufficient enough in making it a *valid* target, and its armour should be increased again, not only does this give a moth a small chance of getting away (changing course n running for a station, ect), its also giving any escorts time to react.
Anyways, time will tell I guess.
As a trader I can tell you that you should take the time to plot a course around the asteriods as a SOP. If you hit more than 1 storm, you're not a very good navigator. Therefore the arguement that moths can't last more than 3 or 4 ion storms shouldn't apply to the individual trader.
NPC Convoys on the other hand are encouraged by their companies to take the shortest route (a straight line) to save on fuel costs. Unfortunately this shortsightedness means that the convoys encounter a greater number of storms and assume an unnecessary risk. However management refuses to acknowledge any link between asteroids and ion storms and instead places the blame for any damaged or lost cargo on the pilots' lack of skills. Local 824 has started organizing pilots for picketing. I fully support the Union and I hope that this matter can be peacefully resolved.
NPC Convoys on the other hand are encouraged by their companies to take the shortest route (a straight line) to save on fuel costs. Unfortunately this shortsightedness means that the convoys encounter a greater number of storms and assume an unnecessary risk. However management refuses to acknowledge any link between asteroids and ion storms and instead places the blame for any damaged or lost cargo on the pilots' lack of skills. Local 824 has started organizing pilots for picketing. I fully support the Union and I hope that this matter can be peacefully resolved.
The moth definately needs more armor.
30-35k should be plenty with its horrendously slow speed.
30-35k should be plenty with its horrendously slow speed.
I'm all about the cut speed but give the armor back.
All of us before the update have seen the AI voys get chewed apart at WH's by the corvus AI at that speed and they had the original specs armor!
If the AI could kill bots with full armor at 160...well lets just say you dont have a chance against a human pilot.
I'd suggest you carry 2 full loads of mines if you even want the slightest chance.
All of us before the update have seen the AI voys get chewed apart at WH's by the corvus AI at that speed and they had the original specs armor!
If the AI could kill bots with full armor at 160...well lets just say you dont have a chance against a human pilot.
I'd suggest you carry 2 full loads of mines if you even want the slightest chance.
Cutting speed = necessity for escorts
Cutting armor = moth is dead before escorts intervene
The moth should probably have around 30k armor, so that it isn't popped quickly, but cutting the speed will make it practically defenseless by itself. That's how it shoud be, agreed?
-Calder
Cutting armor = moth is dead before escorts intervene
The moth should probably have around 30k armor, so that it isn't popped quickly, but cutting the speed will make it practically defenseless by itself. That's how it shoud be, agreed?
-Calder
I've changed....i'm acctually paying piraties now :O
Insted of running away like i usaly do :p
Insted of running away like i usaly do :p
The best solution would be the introduction of more effective defensive weapons, as Nioubi originally suggested. Nothing too amazing, but something that would actually give skilled traders the ability to make runs in grey, and hold off pirates (sometimes!). Any ideas?
What about backward mounted weapons on larger trading vessels, and some sort of interface (even just a toggle) that would switch the view and allow traders to fire flares or energy shots behind them?. Still one of the main problems here is the 'straight line turbo' that this game has...
What about backward mounted weapons on larger trading vessels, and some sort of interface (even just a toggle) that would switch the view and allow traders to fire flares or energy shots behind them?. Still one of the main problems here is the 'straight line turbo' that this game has...
I agree completely with the main post.
I will be the first to say that the moth was in need of nerfing, but with what's been done to it now, it's downright defenseless.
I am strongly for either the reduction of armor OR speed. In fact, I'd like to see both: A heavily armored version with about the same speed as the moth now has (perhaps slightly less thrust as well) and slightly more cargo space, and a lighter version that is vulnerable to fire, but can travel quickly (the benefit of sheding its heavy armor)
This would give traders the choice of which to use based on the situation and the risks involved.
A trader needs to be independant to be profitable in the current universe - high-risk jobs for which an escort would be beneficial don't pay out enough to make hiring one feasable. Therefore, rather than escorts, what happens, is you discourage trading in pirate-occupied areas. To be quite frank, the only thing that made trading fun or exciting before was running through those areas and trying to outsmart or outfly the pirates. Now that you can't do that, there's just no reason to trade there anymore, and when there's no reason to trade with pirates, there's no will to trade at all.
I will be the first to say that the moth was in need of nerfing, but with what's been done to it now, it's downright defenseless.
I am strongly for either the reduction of armor OR speed. In fact, I'd like to see both: A heavily armored version with about the same speed as the moth now has (perhaps slightly less thrust as well) and slightly more cargo space, and a lighter version that is vulnerable to fire, but can travel quickly (the benefit of sheding its heavy armor)
This would give traders the choice of which to use based on the situation and the risks involved.
A trader needs to be independant to be profitable in the current universe - high-risk jobs for which an escort would be beneficial don't pay out enough to make hiring one feasable. Therefore, rather than escorts, what happens, is you discourage trading in pirate-occupied areas. To be quite frank, the only thing that made trading fun or exciting before was running through those areas and trying to outsmart or outfly the pirates. Now that you can't do that, there's just no reason to trade there anymore, and when there's no reason to trade with pirates, there's no will to trade at all.
>> The problem with the old moth was that unless the trader made a serious error (extremely serious, like, turned to fight) they were uncatchable. Even against skilled pirates the moth will survive 98% of the time.
I do agree, I've been keeping the same moth for several monthes without beeing killed. It really needs nerfing.
>> Enter the 1.5.5 update. The moths top speed is reduced to 160 and armor was dropped to 20k. It initial tests, Shape was able to run me down in an EC 107 and cut my moth down to 50% in under 5 seconds.
Now, even against crappy pirates the moth will die 98% of the time. It needs tweaking.
>> As a pirate, I love it! The moth is the big fat target that, in my opinion, it is supposed to be.
I am not sure many traders will want to shoulder this role :)
>> I'm not sure how long you've been playing, but if you've been in the game since the pre moth days, you'll know that these missions were never adjusted to account for the new, larger capacity Moth. Flying large, long distance procurement missions in a Maud used to be the norm before the Moth was introduced.
Yes, I have been trading in 34 cu atlases MKIII when I reached trade 4, then have been building tungunska to get the 60 cu tung Maud when having reached trade 8. Now I have reached 14, and just don't see any perspetcive for the future. Those ships are excellent at their respective levels, but why would trading levels have to end at 8 ? I know the maud revB is lvl 13, but its 56 cargo hold doesn't make it a valuable alternative to the tung maud to my eyes.
>>Trading in grey space is not impossible. It's only impossible to do solo in a behemoth.
Here we are. We now need a better Behemoth or a better new ship if we want to solo trade in grey, when having reached higher levels than those required for mauds.
>>Now that you can't do that, there's just no reason to trade there anymore, and when there's no reason to trade with pirates, there's no will to trade at all.
and there's then no reason for pirates to pirate...
Thanks all for feeding this thread :)
I do agree, I've been keeping the same moth for several monthes without beeing killed. It really needs nerfing.
>> Enter the 1.5.5 update. The moths top speed is reduced to 160 and armor was dropped to 20k. It initial tests, Shape was able to run me down in an EC 107 and cut my moth down to 50% in under 5 seconds.
Now, even against crappy pirates the moth will die 98% of the time. It needs tweaking.
>> As a pirate, I love it! The moth is the big fat target that, in my opinion, it is supposed to be.
I am not sure many traders will want to shoulder this role :)
>> I'm not sure how long you've been playing, but if you've been in the game since the pre moth days, you'll know that these missions were never adjusted to account for the new, larger capacity Moth. Flying large, long distance procurement missions in a Maud used to be the norm before the Moth was introduced.
Yes, I have been trading in 34 cu atlases MKIII when I reached trade 4, then have been building tungunska to get the 60 cu tung Maud when having reached trade 8. Now I have reached 14, and just don't see any perspetcive for the future. Those ships are excellent at their respective levels, but why would trading levels have to end at 8 ? I know the maud revB is lvl 13, but its 56 cargo hold doesn't make it a valuable alternative to the tung maud to my eyes.
>>Trading in grey space is not impossible. It's only impossible to do solo in a behemoth.
Here we are. We now need a better Behemoth or a better new ship if we want to solo trade in grey, when having reached higher levels than those required for mauds.
>>Now that you can't do that, there's just no reason to trade there anymore, and when there's no reason to trade with pirates, there's no will to trade at all.
and there's then no reason for pirates to pirate...
Thanks all for feeding this thread :)
Hrm. I'll need to step into a Moth sometime to see what it's like now. If indeed it's severely weakened, then I'll add my 2 cents.
I've got some pretty low ping, so I can transit wormholes pretty fast and come out the other side with a usual +/- 3 sec advantage. I'll try making a few runs tonight while inviting a few folks to try to kill me. (THAT shouldn't be hard...) If I can't escape from pirates, then NO one will be able to.
I've got some pretty low ping, so I can transit wormholes pretty fast and come out the other side with a usual +/- 3 sec advantage. I'll try making a few runs tonight while inviting a few folks to try to kill me. (THAT shouldn't be hard...) If I can't escape from pirates, then NO one will be able to.
nioubi:
In response to you asking why you should have to group up to trade in grey:
the game is a MORPG (we dont deserve the first m for massive yet) In my opinion traders in a dangerous area should have to have escorts to even have a chance at living.
-of course imo cargo should also time out fast enough that unless the pirates are working in a group and have someone in a larger cargo hauler around to pick up the cargo they wont make any money.
Encouraging group play should be a major part of any designed element in a MMORPG (or a MORPG).
That all said and done, I agree that cutting the speed and the armor was too much, now if the ship does have escorts they can watch it die to the pirates because it has no armor.
My personal preference would have been to cut the speed of the moth back to about 120, reduce the thrust a bit more to make it accelerate slowly, and boost the armor to around 160,000. Make it a ship that can take the punishment its going to get while the escorts have time to take out the pirates. This would encourage grouping on both sides of the fight.
In response to you asking why you should have to group up to trade in grey:
the game is a MORPG (we dont deserve the first m for massive yet) In my opinion traders in a dangerous area should have to have escorts to even have a chance at living.
-of course imo cargo should also time out fast enough that unless the pirates are working in a group and have someone in a larger cargo hauler around to pick up the cargo they wont make any money.
Encouraging group play should be a major part of any designed element in a MMORPG (or a MORPG).
That all said and done, I agree that cutting the speed and the armor was too much, now if the ship does have escorts they can watch it die to the pirates because it has no armor.
My personal preference would have been to cut the speed of the moth back to about 120, reduce the thrust a bit more to make it accelerate slowly, and boost the armor to around 160,000. Make it a ship that can take the punishment its going to get while the escorts have time to take out the pirates. This would encourage grouping on both sides of the fight.
Yea, I agree spell.