Forums » General

Would Vendetta exist if it had not implemented Mac and UNIX support?

1234»
Jan 31, 2006 LeberMac link
Well, Vendetta was way to laggy for me to play last night, so I strayed. I admit it!

I was curious last night about some of these other space-sim games out there like X2OL, Homeworld, and EVE. From a marketing standpoint, Guild Software & Vendetta are in an interesting position.

X2OL is not out yet, looks like they are in the initial stages of development (e.g. getting financing) But X2 and X3 are PC-only.

EVE is PC-Only. (But looks totally kickass, and recently won a buncha awards.)

Homeworld2 has a Mac version and internet play, but is not MMORPG. (yet?)

None of these has a UNIX version.

However, from what I can tell, each one of these three games has graphics that are superior to Vendetta. All (it appeears to me) have superior gameplay, storyline, content, and plot elements which Vendetta almost lacks completely. All are published by larger companies with resources that are orders of magnitude greater than Guild software. Playerbase for these games is orders of magnitude larger as well.

I (as a Mac user) am unable to play these games, so I cannot judge whether the twitch/skill-based combat engine is as fun as Vendetta's. I'd like to hear some compare/contrast stories from other V-O players who own PC's and have experienced these games. For me, Vendetta-Online draws many surprising parallels to martial arts, and indeed it has been described as "space kung-fu" in the past. That's why I play. Believe me, I don't stick around because of the super-fun mining prospecting missions.

From a "fanboy" standpoint of Vendetta, I truly believe that if Vendetta offered only PC support, this development effort would be going nowhere. Because it would have to compete in the "big ocean" of other PC games like the above three I mentioned.

But, since it is the only thing going for space MMORPG (and in some cases, MMORPG in general) in the "small sea" of Mac and UNIX users, it has survived and built what I would call an extremely dedicated group of fans.

Now, I am NOT saying this in order to start a platform war. It's readily accepted that if you want to play games on the computer, the Windows x86 architecture is the way to go. I AM saying this in order to plant the seeds of a targeted marketing campaign for Vendetta-Online. When it's ready.

Hopefully it will be ready-for-prime-time soon. Vendetta has two big advantages that will help it sell: twitch combat and Mac/UNIX support. I believe that it can be readied again for 2nd release, but I also believe that other games are beginning to crowd the category.

Thoughts? (Please no platform wars)
Jan 31, 2006 Starfisher link
"Homeworld2 has a Mac version and internet play, but is not MMORPG. (yet?)"

Homeworld2 is an RTS. It's IP rights are locked up somewhere, and Relic is off doing other things.

It's not a competitor to Vendetta in any way ;)

EVE is essentially non-comparable to Vendetta in terms of combat gameplay - its dice roll combat with no real piloting to speak of. The universe is much larger, more developed and prettier, and gameplay outside of combat is waaay more in-depth. Personally, though, it's too involved, requiring lots of boring stuff to be done, and too political for me.

Anyway, as you point out, Vendetta largely appeals to the poor fools who want to play games yet have Macs. I think that trend will continue until Vendetta has enough content and gameplay to present itself as a new option in the PC market instead of a curiousity. I don't think it will ever compete with EVE, because the game is so fundamentally different... this is barebones MMO Privateer, basically. Once it gets fleshed out to Privateer levels, it will appeal to that niche of the market.

So yeah. Multi-platform was and is the way to go. You can exploit the vast uncharted market of Mac and Linux games while you build the game up to something that can actually compete in the PC market.
Jan 31, 2006 mgl_mouser link
Most definitely, I wouldn't use VO if it weren't from a Mac version. The only non Apple hardware I have at home are NeXT Computers and two SGI Indigos. Macs totally outnumber any other hardware I have at home.

Though, it's availability on Mac isn't the one thing that has led me to my current VO addiction problem.

Other games our there have fantastic graphics, scenery and are available for Macs. America's Army being one I looked at for a while (but if you thought there was a ganker issue in VO, you've never played AA). Halo2, Doom & the like also have interesting graphics.

But in Doom3, for example, you can't just decide to go Out Thereª and grow fields of potatoes.

In VO, I like not being told what to do all the time. If I want to be a lazy bum, I can very well be. If I want to RP, turn murderous, become a gentle tutor, go roid humping, I'm all free to do that.

Would Vo exist if it didn't have a Mac version? Probably. I dont have the %age of Mac users in VO but the relative WinTel pool is so large that it probably wouldn't affect the bottom line too much.

Would VO survive if it didn't have a Linux version? Yes. I do not know any Linux users wich doesn't multiboot a (typically pirated) copy of Winblows, if not only for game play (there are even fewer Linux games than Mac games).

One thing for sure. Having a Mac and Linux version, readily available in simultaneous updates as with the Windows one, certainly generates a buzz. There are few quality MMORPG games ou there for Mac & Linux and the fandom generated by the few certainly helps maintain visibility in an otherwise flooded WinTel market, where VO would probably have a hard time surfacing otherwise.

There's probably a higher-than-expected Linux and Mac user base in VO simply because fewer alternatives exist for the genre.
Jan 31, 2006 Renegade xxRIPxx link
still the marketadvantage of the MAC will dry down in a couple years as well seeing that apple has went intel processor inside so that it could run windows as easilly as any other pc could and with that appeal to a wider customersbase.

But like people said, homeworld is an rts so completely different thing. Eve, is not my cup of tea, just to many details before you are playing... seems more like a sim then a game.

X2 blows... i installed it, tried it and deinstalled it 2 hours later... the story wasn't that bad, it was just that the controls were utter bunk and the fighting was so non entertaining. Still it might hav ebeen because i was used to the fighting in VO.
Jan 31, 2006 moldyman link
Leber pretty much summed it up for me as a Mac user. But there are two other things to consider:

1) Low cost. There are a lot of MMORPGs out there for $10 (WoW is $50 initial and then $15 a month). Not only is it cheap for everyone, it's especially cheap or Mac users. I've noticed while browsing around online and in stores that actually *gasp* sell Mac games, that the prices stay perpetually at $50ish, high due to low demand I guess. It's nice to see a game where I have 30 days to scrape up $10.

2) Low system requirement. VO has low system requirements, even lower than those listed. I'm not the only one "below the playability line" as it were. I'm surprised my computer can run anything of this caliber without dying or even glitching (damn router....) While not a big factor, it's one that keeps me in the game.
Jan 31, 2006 ghostieboy link
I belive X2 is for a Mac. I played a demo and it was...so so although it took ages to load in my 700Mhz G4
Jan 31, 2006 yodaofborg link
Well, without a Linux version, I would have probably not seen Vendetta as early - if at all, but saying that I reckon if I would have seen it in the doze enviro only, I prolly would have still given it a shot - since Elite (not frontier, that was MEH) I have played about 4 space sims/shooters that I have liked for more than the GFX - and I have been looking for a online version of that 8 bit classic since! So yeah, if i would have managed to wade through the sea of Doze titles and found Vendetta, i'd still be here, but I found it a lot easier due to the Linux stuffs.
Jan 31, 2006 sissoko link
Well you can compare Vendetta Online and EvE like this:

VO = going out with friends for a few rounds of paintball
Eve = building model trains and environnements in the basement.

and i agree with leber, althou it remains to see what happens when windblows can be run on a Mactel, how the impact will be on the gaming communities and industry.

VOs multiplatform policy have been still is and will be a great asset to this game so if the devs can find ways to improve other elements of the game, atleast on the visual side, it will be able to attract alot more mainstream players. many have tried eve and found it to be too complicated. its strenght is its depth on crafting, RP and ingame politics. VO has its strenght in the twitch combat system, it omgwtfbbqpwns eve, its what keep players and will attract new ones, Vo needs content on the rest of the RPG aspects to keep them from beeing bored too fast.

But i have confidence in the Devs and this community to create something absolufrikking amazing!!
Jan 31, 2006 wylfing link
I do not know any Linux users wich doesn't multiboot a (typically pirated) copy of Winblows, if not only for game play (there are even fewer Linux games than Mac games).

I am a Linux user, and I do not multiboot, so now you know of one. Also, Cedega runs many Windows games quite well, although I do tend to play only native ones like Vendetta (and NWN and of course nethack).
Jan 31, 2006 stranger link
"Would VO survive if it didn't have a Linux version? Yes. I do not know any Linux users wich doesn't multiboot a (typically pirated) copy of Winblows, if not only for game play (there are even fewer Linux games than Mac games)."

Well, mgl_mouser, you now know one. I do have a second harddrive for my laptop that has Windows but I haven't used it in at least 5 months and my amd64 tower only has linux.

I do have to agree with you though. Most Linux users that I know are not as crazy as I am and do dual boot for games. I would have to say that the Mac users are probably a much larger influence then us linux users. Maybe I should combine the two. Oh! Linux on a dual G5! Anyone doing that?
Jan 31, 2006 ananzi link
1. linux 'users' (as in drugs) are cheap bastards, and will never pay for anything. marketing software to them is like trying to sell employee health insurance to wal-mart.

2. macintosh 'users' (as in drugs, but not plain old boring drugs, thatll be a vente grande shot with organic soy latte 8ball, as we are not commoners) are not cheap bastards. they will pay 500 dollars for a box that is white instead of off white, even though it will show more dirt and goes slower than something cheaper and black and that came off the same assembly line.

so while i would say that the linux support in the game is a complete waste of time, the mac support is very important.

------------

i must also mention that developing for linux is much more problematic because of the spittle spewing slobbering table pounding hatred of anything resembling a graphics and sound API standard in linux; this is not a 'temporary situation' because it has been a 'temporary situation' since i first encountered linux in 1996. during this same time frame, from 1996 to 2006, let me mention that microsoft has gone through at least half a dozen versions of directX and is soon going to move on to something else; sony released not 2 but 3 playstation game consoles, macintosh moved from dilapidated funk machine to megapowerhouse and is pulling the cloth out from beneath a table layed out with a 10 course dinner by changing their CPU. entire sectors of the computer industry have undergone birth, growth, scandal, death, rebirth, new scandals, and so forth and so on, time has been wiped clean and built back up again, cities have been razed, fallen, risen, and been razed again, three wars have started, millions have starved, millions others have been raised from poverty, the human genome has been decoded, tsunamis, earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, and global warming have rewritten the face of the planet,

and linux still has no standard audio and graphics API.

---------

linux people still resent the GUI and they think anything graphical is not worthy of their infinite intellect.

to illustrate this fact i have pasted here an excerpt from the inner dialog of the standard unix programmer.

'here i am brain the size of a planet, and the lame ass users want me to standardize a graphics API. oh bother, i think ill go implement httpd in the kernel and make 8-way SMP work on a dead CPU platform instead. oh yeah, 3 months have passed, time to change the entire interface to the network stack as well.

graphics API. ill show you a graphics API you clueless n00b lus3r. hows about i make 10 graphics APIs all incompatible! not only will i fork X, i will fork the drivers its based on, and then ill fork the kernel interfaces too! see how you like that you lumpy misshapen tards! how do your games play now, loser!

learn troff you worthless kids! learn latex! thats all the graphics you need! when i was your age all we had were oscilloscopes and weird terminals! printers for chrissakes!
printers!

we had a glorified typewriter and we were happy with it. we had punch cards and lights that we had to replace by hand. we got requests from 'users' in a little box through a window and when we were good and well ready to give them the results we dumped paper in a tray for them.

ill teach you little bastards what real computer programming is all about.
'

in short, i think vendetta should seriously measure the amount of time they spend working around the 'fun' inconsistencies in the various platforms. then ask what are the benefits ?

they certainly arent financial as the linux users are a small fraction and most of them would just buy the windows version anyways. so we are left with a few who are 'linux only'.

the only linux users who have no windows dual boot are hypocritical psuedo revolutionaries; they feel microsoft is an evil corporation and refuse to buy product, but they have no problem supporting stock scammers like the many 'linux companies' circa 2000, or buying intel, AMD, and the barrels full of motherboards and chipsets pouring out of factories in asia that have no environmental or labor protections (wait for it... those workers have good jobs!)

so what are you supporting there? a false sense of morality; fake hopes and fake dreams, castles built of sand on the edge of an ideological ocean whose tide is coming in.

the last benefit of multiplatform is 'keeping your edge' as a programmer. by viewing the machine from different perspectives of different operating systems you gain insight into what is possible and waht is not worth spending 80 hours working on.

so in conclusion...

mac support: perhaps the base of the game, financially

windows support: a nice addendum to the mac money, but cant be counted on, as there are too many other games out there

linux support: helps the programmers keep an edge

unix support: what the @#$@#$? macintosh and linux not good enough for you? you wont be satisified until there is a freebsd verison, will you? no wait, netbsd. Openbsd! yes, the revolution of the number 1 porn serving OS; freebsd. to suport the porn server gaming customers vendetta must be ported to freebsd immediately; otherwise you are supporting immoral things like microsoft!

remember, youre either with stallman or youre against him.

------

now i know what some of you are gonna say. 'but ananzi, you have no statistical evidence whatsoever to back up your wild assertions. you havent looked at the guild numbers, and, in fact, you cant, because they are private. you really have no idea of the ratio of linux, mac, and windows players, their spending habits, income levels, dual boot status, or willingness to pay for software'.

you could say that. and youd be wrong. because what you east cost intellectual liberals dont understand is that truth is not something you learn in school or by studying a bunch of boring facts and figures. math is for nerds and losers.

the truth is something you feel in your gut. or, as with president bush, something that god tells you.

these are things you would know if you watched the Colbert Report, with Stephen Colbert. Comedy Central weeknights at 10:30 pm central.

----

the end.

Jan 31, 2006 SPACERANGER link
Moldy's right. In the maybe dozens of stores I've gone to, I really haven't seen a single mac game. Crappy pcs. Meh.
Jan 31, 2006 Lord Q link
>2. macintosh 'users' (as in too sophisticated to admit they are drug users even
>though they are)

hey! we mac users aren't too sophisticated to admit to doing drugs.
Jan 31, 2006 LeberMac link
On-Topic please. Do you think targeting the eventual tentative marketing push primarily towards Mac and linux/unix users would be beneficial or not? Or should the game be aimed at a mass-market audience consisting of ALL computer users?
Jan 31, 2006 damicatz link
Anazi wrote :
1. linux 'users' (as in drugs) are cheap bastards, and will never pay for anything. marketing software to them is like trying to sell employee health insurance to wal-mart.
------------------------
First off Windows != PC. If you say a game is for a PC, I expect it to work on a PC. And I'm running Linux on my PC.

Second, Anazi, lay off the drugs and shut up while you're ahead. I could say that Windows users are cheap bastards because 90% of them pirate software, whereas all my software is legal.
Jan 31, 2006 stranger link
Yes LeberMac, on topic is a good thing.

And in answer to your questions, yes VO should be marketed to all OS's and yes it would be benificial. I have yet to see a MMOG that is this good for linux and as other mac players have said there aren't that many games for mac.
Jan 31, 2006 johnhawl218 link
If you want to make the money, invest in getting the masses to play, which means the windows users. Mac users will come to the game because there is really nothing better for the platform, as is the same for linux/unix.
Jan 31, 2006 Chikira link
I would really like to see the devs gett into contact with apple and try to get a kinda bundle deal going. I know this is a long shot, but currently people my age really view the PC as the only type of computer on the market, You can appeal to apple by showing a fully functional and grand MMORPG like vendetta will be I think after the next 6 months.

Apple would love to recapture the gamers market, and if Incarnate could smooze his way into the open spot vendetta could really take off, and fast. Honestly there independent on the IPOD craze and with there deal with Intel you know getting gamers back is a part of their strategy to reclaim some market room. I know its worth a shot at it, even if rejected several times it could boost Vendetta way beyond anything the future marketing push would do. Can you inmagine 9,000 active vendetta users, all online? I can.

Vendetta would exist, however it would still be in development, and from a logical prespective, it still is. Theres a reason for all of us sticking around for so long, and supporting the devs, its that most if not all of us see great potential for Vendetta. Something about Vendetta makes you wanna play, especially when its active time *45 to 60 players* even at that number its a great experience.

If I were in charge of this project, I would probably drop linux support. Now I know this seems harsh however the linux market for games is so small theres really no point in making a game for it. I run a linux PC and I do love it however from a developers prespective, i'd be dumbstruck if someone was to develop exclusively for Linux or even partially. I would also approach an actual publisher to put some money into vendetta, however retaining rights to the games direction would either make or brake the deal. In no way do I want some larger company taking over and then calling all the shots.

Now for an opinion on EvE-Online

Its a fairly decent game however it just doesnt hold value nor interest for that long, after the 14 week trial I lost all interest in actually playing EVE. Graphics are well done but I dont want a twenty dollar a month screensaver.

Vendetta-Online will be a succesful game, and I like the current direction the devs are taking Vendetta in. One problem, they need to make up for a small team, If there not already working basically 14 hour days they need to be. I love the new UI, the promising new ships soon to come, and even the overall feel of Vendetta, but if the devs really want to get the ball rolling and make Vendetta a real MMORPG They need to shift into high gear and get things done at least twice as fast. I may be expecting alot, but if Incarnate and gang want to get into the top ranked games and be making money off of Vendetta-Online they need to really start firing out updates.

Summary: Drop linux support, Bundle with Mac OS, focus on increasing output.

PS. Tell MMORPG.com to start watching vendetta news as they havent done a damn thing, the last one they posted was on december of last year.
Jan 31, 2006 momerath42 link
Chikira says:
"Summary: Drop linux support, Bundle with Mac OS, focus on increasing output."

Dropping linux support is completely pointless and harmful. The hard work is already done, and a lot of it is shared with the MacOS X port by the way. We currently have AMD64/Linux and MacOSX/Intel ports that a few and no players (so far) respectively, use. Hell, this game used to run on BeOS and IRIX; if it were so time consuming, do you honestly think the guys would have done that? The time spent on client updates is *not* 1/3 each for win, mac and linux. We'd have to ask Ray, but I expect even the time spent making the new client run well in Linux, was hours and not days, and that has been in development on windows for 6+ months. Then, of course, there is the fact that the servers run Linux, so we'd have to maintain most of the port for ourselves anyway. Oh and how about 2 of the 4 of us have nothing but Linux installed on our workstations.

As John explained to me just the other day, Apple will *never* bundle our game because it is too violent. He knows people at Apple, and this is the final answer. Yes, I know it is quite tame compared with most, but both the fact that it *does* center around violent conflict, and that it is online (that whole online-predator thing), absolutely preclude a bundling deal with Apple. We would do better to talk to the Ubuntu folks who are working to get their distros on mass market boxes, and/or Lindows/Linspire who sell their own line of ultra-cheap consumer machines.

And I'm not even going to touch that last one.
Feb 01, 2006 Harry Seldon link
Heeeeey....Nanosaur was violent!

In any case, it's actually harder to get something working on OSX than it is on Linux, because Linux runs on PC hardware, while (almost all) macs are still using the PPC chips, which interpereits how intergers work differently...and it just turns into a big mess if you don't do things very nicely. Soooo...kudos to Guild for that.