1. linux 'users' (as in drugs) are cheap bastards, and will never pay for anything. marketing software to them is like trying to sell employee health insurance to wal-mart.

What a funny comment! Personally, I pay for lots of software, quite a few of the *ports* done by http://www.linuxgamepublishing.com/ - I bought every UT title since UT (1999) due to native Linux support, i've even payed for a copy of a distro, just to support the makers...

...As already stated in this thread, most software piracy is done on doze, go figure...

[on topic]

Errm, I dunno, I reckon if guild would have aimed for just doze, they would have had less exposure - but saying that, quite a lot of testers were doze only folk - so would it still exist? Prolly. Would it have such a dedicated community? Prolly not.

The other issue with marketing towards windows users is because windows gamers tend to have shorter game attention spans than mac or linux users. This is simply because the windows game market is so large, and pirated games are so easy to come by, that they don't need to be patient with their games. If there's something they don't like, or if they get bored, they just move on to Warcraft MCXXXVIII Online or whatever.

Look at the EnB gamers. They played in large droves for only a couple months at most, decided that VO just wasn't EnB redux and moved on.

Am I saying that all windows users are like this? No. Just that a very large percentage of the population is.

Har, you're absolutely right about that, CrippledPidgeon.

Personally, I simply got bored with other MMOs 'cause of the ****** elvish **** everywhere. You know what I mean: these lousy spells, magic armors, swords, ARR!!! I simply HATE fantasy, so 'twas damn hard for me to find a good MMO.
EVE is a screensaver, yes, too expensive to have. :)

I suppose there are some people that may think like me.

------
Mike-L, SCAR

CrippledPidgeon: You really need to account for the fact that Windows gaming is a hand-over-fist marketing scheme of more-of-the-same sequals that are more resource intensive and require a full hardware upgrade to play. It's not attention span, it's marketing and peer pressure. You *do want to play Überl33t Maxmium Pwnage 4 Directors Cut Special Gold DVD Edition including the 37 level Deth2N00bs Expansion Pack like all your friends, right?

There are many players out there who dispise this, which is why companies like http://www.dreamcatchergames.com/ come in an make a living. Many of thier games play like the King's Quest series, and will run on all but the most vernerable hardware.

As for your other statement, as one of "the EnB gamers", not everyone was looking for another EnB. It had it's merits, and it's flaws. With the exception of Tashazar who demanded the devs to remove PvP, many simply got hooked into the WoW-factor like every other MMO out there.

There was also a point of hostility, and there still is, anytime someone mentioned a feature that was in EnB that was liked and thought would be complementary here (explorable stations for example). This drove many off.

Even to this day if a feature appears in *any* other game, alot of the current player base gang up on the poster to shame him for suggesting it, before returning to thier threads about the lack of features in Vendetta.

And to address another side topic. Someone mentioned that "PC" != Windoze. This is so very true. At the same time, Linux != x86.

As far as the question of the OP, Vendetta would probably not exsist today had it not been for Linux or Mac. Windows users have to many other options that Mac and Linux don't.

Vendetta is not 100% what I want, but unlike Eve which is mind numbingly dull, and WoW which is not a sci fi game, it's as close as it has gotten since EnB.

By the way, I am a Windoze gamer (who doesn't like Windows, but finds Linux and Mac to be even *worse* options) and I play Vendetta by choice. I left (not by choice), but came back because I missed it. VO is a niche game as is, it does not have the features to sustain broader appeal at this time. But it keeps me happy.

Zyl said:
"I am a Windoze gamer (who doesn't like Windows, but finds Linux and Mac to be even *worse* options) and I play Vendetta by choice. VO is a niche game as is, it does not have the features to sustain broader appeal at this time. But it keeps me happy."

That sums it up for me.

Windows gamers don't have shorter attention spans. I don't know anyone who frenetically changes games left and right. They simply have a choice of what game they want to buy. So people buy their shiny, feature filled, populated game (MMO or just traditional multiplayer) and are happy with it because there's a lot to do. Don't mistake the ability to have discerning taste for ADD.

Also, saying that most piracy is done by windows users is kind of dumb - what, 90% of the earth uses windows? There are more windows pirates than there are users of non-microsoft software, but I bet if you compared the percentages of users, they'd be roughly the same. You might as well say all police pursuits are of criminals in cars! Duh! But if we all rode bikes everywhere, then the police would be chasing people on bikes.

nah, they'd use segways.

Hahahaha!

Chase scenes would be 900% better with segways.

Zyl and Jex hit it: I think that's what is bugging me about Vendetta - it has the feel of a niche game that's just not-quite-ready-for-prime-time. I desperately want it to have tons more features and ultracool graphics and giant space goliath cannons and deserted stations and all of that cool stuff. I know the devs want this about 100x more than I do.

I know that they're working hard. It's apparent. However, what is stopping Guild from hiring on more artists and developers. Just money? SURELY there is an investment group that could help out? Or has this idea been discussed and rejected already?

I'm thinking long-term. If Vendetta continues to be a "niche" game with the same 4 devs, then I think it should continue to develop cross-platform, and in fact perhaps concentrate advertising efforts in niche markets, not in mass-media.

Starfisher, sorry, but I must be the only person I know IRL that has payed for a copy of windows xp... ...There really isnt much point pirating a copy of Linux, now is there?

I guess its a bit like saying *if everyone used Linux, there would be as many viruses as on windows!* which is true, to an extent, but facts are most people DONT use Linux, and probably never will.

personaly i'd bet we will all be flored when the devs start adding content again (after the various infrastructure reconstruction is finished). i mean look how quickely client fixes started comming after the first version was released. and we've seen some of leaks regarding development of new ship models. not to mention that most of the work for generating new content can be completed quickely once the proper development tools are in place.

anyway, back on topic:

personaly i think dropping any of the 3 platforms would be a very bad idea. right now the majority of the playebase is mac users, and in the future it would be foolish to drop windos support (for obvious reasons) and even stupider to pull the rug out from under the curent playerbase. as for linix support, well it's not hurting anything so even the tinyest gain is worthwile IMO so i say keep it.

as far as how VO should be marketed, i'd say focus primarily on the windos market. unless something changes signifigently between now and then Mac and Linix users will hear about it through the samge chanels as windows users and be more likely to be won over because of the lack of competition.

See, I think the opposite, Lord Q.

I think that in order to get the most for their marketing dollar, Guild SW should virtually IGNORE the Windows market, which is overhyped and oversaturated.

Make a big initial push in Mac & Linux/Unix websites, chatrooms, forums, blogs, whatever & wherever. Get a solid core of users and see how that works for 6 months. Then, once you have a steady income stream to pay for all the new servers & crap that the Windows users will require, THEN go advertise for Windows users and on all the gamesites/TV shows/magazines/conventions/etc.

This way, you walk before you run. The additional income allows for infrastructure (server & connection) improvements, and once those are paid for, it will allow for things like paid guides/monitors, additional artists and programmers, etc. See, you let things "snowball" with the Mac and Unix crowd, and in 6 months you'll be able to put the word out (and easily PAY for) all of the Windows advertising.

Then Guild SW can pretty much retire, because they'll be bazillionaires. Think of the income that even a measly 10,000 subscribers would generate. WoW claims to have 5 million+ paying subscribers. How many does EvE have? I'd wager that, with enough spit & polish, V-O could capture half the marketshare of EvE without even blinking.

Linux support is one of the reasons that this game is still around today. The Windows MMO market is saturated and has no room for startups anymore. People have World of Warcrap to thank for the staturation.

Zyl: "As for your other statement, as one of "the EnB gamers", not everyone was looking for another EnB. It had it's merits, and it's flaws. With the exception of Tashazar who demanded the devs to remove PvP, many simply got hooked into the WoW-factor like every other MMO out there."

I never said that all EnB players felt that way, but you can't ignore the fact that the number of EnB players currently active pale in comparison to the numbers of EnB players immediately after release.

Starfisher: "Windows gamers don't have shorter attention spans. I don't know anyone who frenetically changes games left and right."

Well, that's you. In my experience, my friends would play a game for a month or less, and move on to the next one. They started playing "Guild Wars" in September, and to my knowledge, stopped before Thanksgiving.

"Don't mistake the ability to have discerning taste for ADD."

As a guy with ADD, I'll try to not take offense, or get distracted.

"Also, saying that most piracy is done by windows users is kind of dumb - what, 90% of the earth uses windows? There are more windows pirates than there are users of non-microsoft software, but I bet if you compared the percentages of users, they'd be roughly the same."

Duh... I never said that more windows users pirate software than any other platform. I just said that pirated windows software is a lot easier to come by than for other platforms.

But as I said, the windows market is saturated with games, and frankly, if Guild restricted themselves to Windows and MacOS, then they'd encounter a lot of competition in the Windows market, and would end up relying on game-starved Mac users. So really, guild has nothing to lose for also producing linux builds of the game. As Momerath says, they don't require a lot of extra work to create the Linux and MacOS builds, so it really allows them to expand their market further without much effort. And to cut out windows support means that they also lose a very large (albeit highly competitive) market.

I know that they're working hard. It's apparent. However, what is stopping Guild from hiring on more artists and developers. Just money? SURELY there is an investment group that could help out? Or has this idea been discussed and rejected already?

there is no money for games development startups like guildsoftware. The majority of the alpha test was one long hunt for an investor/publisher, with no luck. As to hiring more artists/developers you have obviously never done any major programming.

Once you get over a few tens of thoulsands of lines of code bringing a new developer up to speed is a multi-MONTH process. I seriously doubt that momerath did very much at all his first month except look over shoulders and say "whats that do?" For that matter I dont think he would feel very comfortable trying to touch any part of the code other than things he has specifically done at this point in time.

Graphic artists are the same way, Incarnate explained a while back (a month at most) that all the new art luis does still has to be worked on by one of the devs (usually incarnate) to make it compatible with the game engine. it has to be mapped for collision, thrust, to display properly etc etc.

As for marketing.. market it to everyone.

Crippled: Apologies. I tend to free-form respond to what different people say without pointing at them, and sometimes someone will latch on to my response to their statements and think the whole post is about them. Not so. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm responding to something else.

Anyway, to address the relevant bit of your post, the difference in our perspective shows just how poor personal experience is to draw on for sweeping generalizations like "Windows users tend to do X" - you can't possibly know a statistically significant number of windows users, and so can't speak for them any more than I can. In any event, they must be exceedingly well off or devoted pirates to be able to switch games once a month.

Sorry if I offended you Momerath42 . ^^ deepest apoligizes. Just a personal standpoint thats all.

Spellcast said: As to hiring more artists/developers you have obviously never done any major programming.
Nope. I'm a n00b when it comes to running a game development company, very astute of you to point that out, Spellcast.

Spellcast also said:As for marketing.. market it to everyone.
You have obviously never done any major marketing. You don't throw limited marketing dollars into mass-marketing efforts. That would be like the corner hardware store buying superbowl ads.

Lol, that was great Leber. ^.^

You don't throw limited marketing dollars into mass-marketing efforts. That would be like the corner hardware store buying superbowl ads.

did I say MASS MARKETING? no.

you can market to everyone (meaning all types of computer users) on a very limited budget via ads placed on some general computing pages and game sites. By market to everyone I was not implying an ad on the superbowl, I was suggesting that targeting ads to one specific segment of the computer users on the internet (just mac users or just linux users) would not be the way I would go.

as to the comment about you not doing any major programming, You dont have to run a game development company to do so, lots of people work on large projects for intranet servers and company tech departments and would understand perfectly what i mentioned about bringing new people up to speed on a large piece of code.

For that matter about a month ago incarnate posted almost exactly the same thing I posted regarding new people and getting them up to speed.