[EDIT]
Blah Blah Blah. Let's see you do better. Blah Blah Blah.
[/EDIT]

/me throws down gauntlet and waits for "Otana Space" to pick it up.

Errrm, Solaris is a Unix, im sure that this website, and many others would work on it, hey, with enough effort on your own part, maybe even the game will run, i will not bother to respond further, except to say, if you think you can do better, DO SO, dont troll.

"/me throws down gauntlet and waits for "Otana Space" to pick it up."

No, what you really did is tha you just flamed me without any real interest and sadly, without any understanding what are you talking about (and by the way, you are even openly lying, the part of your sentence "but complain without suggesting alternatives" is in direct opposition with what I did, twice).

I don't know you, you may just having a bad day (or night), you may be just 14 years old and in real, you are a nice person, but don't know much about the world outside, there may be other reasons, why your post looks like written by the very last redneck I've ever seen. But in fact, it really doesn't matter, I don't work this way and I don't talk this way with people I'm supposed to work with. So sorry, I will not bend to pick your gauntlet, just to be fucked in my ass.

(by the way, I'm probably out of this thread, you all can freely continue in your usual way of thinking and please forget that there was ever someone who had some interest in explaining you, what you do wrong)

Saying, "Oh? Well let's see YOU do better!" is the equivalent of sticking your figners in your ears, screaming, "LAHLLALLALALALA" and chasing around the guy who criticized you trying to kick him in the balls. It's childish and stupid. If you put something out for public consumption, it obviously means you are looking for feedback. Ignoring it because it tells you you did poorly is really quite dumb. Learn from what you did wrong instead of killing the messenger.

That said, he was harsh, but then again this is the internet. Ya should be used to it by now. The design wasn't that great, and doesn't reflect the changing styles and standards of the internet. It's for a game so it should be snazzy and have some cool images, but it's a website so it shouldn't be a big mapped image. So far he's trolling you all pretty well with his couching of truth in inflammatory statements.

If I may offer my own criticism of the original, the bulging planet sort of eats up all your room for content. This is about getting information to the viewer - looks should compliment this aim, not hinder it by taking up too much space. Simple usually is best. Just peeking at eve-online (which doesn't seem to work in firefox. fools.), can give you an idea of what I mean. Blazing banners are cool the first time you see them but they get old and boring pretty fast with repeated viewing. You want something subdued that still sets the mood of the rest of the site.

I could go on in this vein for a while, but I think you get the idea. Think of the content first, eyecandy second.

Hey, how about this. We go back to the topic of a web design for the website, use polite and constructive criticism, and be nice to each-other and stuff! Yah!

/me sticks fingers in ears and runs around screaming "LALALALALALALALALALALALA" Hey it works!

Okay I apologize to Otana Space for the [now EDITED] flame. If he ever reads this thread again. After I hurt his feelings.

Now this is coming from a website designer: the visuals and the design should dictate the technology, not the other way around.

"Now this is coming from a website designer: the visuals and the design should dictate the technology, not the other way around."

Sir, I probably have no words to say how wrong you are (in this). What you wrote doesn't come from a website designer, it comes from a (painfully amateurish, but this is NOT an insult, trust me) graphics designer, maybe even artist. What you do not realize (and what you totally ignored in my first post, by the way) is that there is a lot more to the (world wide-)web than just IMAGES. As I wrote before, I don't know you, I don't know what you do, I dont' know if you ever heard of XML, XSL transformations, thin clients, DBMS, DBIS and millions of other things, that make the difference between world wide web and your "C:\My Documents" directory. But after reading your statement above, I really doubt. Sadly, I don't have the time and resources to explain this all to you, but I will still try at least something little:

Do you know, where we (all that web development companies and people around) make all the money? Today, we almost do not offer web development services to clients, that do not have any web page/presentation/portal/IS. There are just no such clients around, everyone has at least something. One can think that this is quite unhappy situation, but still, we have something better to do. We (most of current web-development industry) sell our services to clients, that already have their web pages, not mater how small or large. Because most of them have still the same problem - their pages suck, really badly. Not because of graphics, they all have plenty of great designs, tens of megabytes of graphics (really), their pages look great, but.. You know, they all have the same problem - their data access, their technologies, their information structures suck to unprecedent levels. And you know why? Because someone (someone like you, maybe?) just designed them a web page (you know, the graphics and visuals you talk about) and didn't bother to ask them, what that page should really do and how it should really work. Not even thinking, how will they update such page, how will that page look and work in one year, or five years, how the search engines will index them and bring them some clients, how wil they CHANGE their designs, but leaving their data untouched, and plenty of other things that web-design is really about. And, you know (probably not, but still), this is called the technology. That kind of technology, that you need to be developing for years, then quickly hire few gfx designers as contractors, give them EXACT specs, let them do their (mostly insignificant) part of job and (in most cases that I know) again fire them (not counting that few in-house designers you still want to have around, but no one of them I know should ever dare to say "visuals and the design should dictate the technology", it would be their immediate suicide. But of course they know it and they don't work this way either). The problem with (sorry, I already forgot his nickname) XXX's design proposals is that he obviously didn't bother (or probably isn't skilled) to think about the underlying technologies and concepts of any other website than a simple home page, he just bunched together some sci-fi images, added some quick buttons and a text area, and, ah, we are done, we have a new super-duper vendetta-online page! The problem is that the real word doesn't work that way, not today and as far as I can see, it will never go back again. The current Vendetta page (I'd like to say Vendetta-Online portal, what it really should be, but isn't) quite suck (which is not a subject of this thread so I was trying to avoid that in my previous posts) and right because of that - why would anyone want to do the same again with only different header, buttons and maybe page borders? No one in web-development industry today would start to design a page in %Photoshop% (insert the name of your favourite image editor there), if he ever wants to be taken seriously. There is a lot more to web design than just "Your new page will look somehow like this! Please, do not drool on my shoes, thank you.", as I somehow glanced in the beginning. And you can not design a "Quick 30 minute vendetta site layout" and call yourself a web designer, probably just "simple gfx drone without a clue". Because you can not on your own design a web page, if you know NOTHING about the technologies and concepts that the page needs and will/should run on. But as I said, this is just a quick reaction to your statement, to be able to explain to you everything that is wrong with the proposed desings, I would need a lot more of time and space that I have now and that this board can provide me and also, you would be required to pay me for that, quite a lot. Anyway, I will give you a friendly advice to your professional life - if you will ever be looking for a job as a web designer, never tell them that "the visuals and the design should dictate the technology" before you hold a signed contract in your hand, otherwise you will starve to death. Have a nice day, LeberMac.

Otana Space,
Please help by posting an improved version of the mockup in question. Don't waste your energy rebutting, just go ahead and put the "site design Shh-Mack down on da fools" I got your back ;-)

/muh-torcs

can you please get off your high horse and give us an example of how you would do it.

Lead by example I would say. not to mention that I need examples of the stuff you are preaching not just plain words that make in my eyes no sense at all. Not to mention that that is the easiest way to instruct somebody in the ways how such a problem should be tackled and rid the world of the gfx gunkies.

And yes I have heared of xml, xsl and DBMS. Althugh I admit I have never heared of the other ones (prolly since I have stopped actively following these trends for +- 2 years already). Since in my opinion for most businesses a webpage like you describe it is still a far from their bed show (meaning not yet mainstream) at least not for SMCs.

However internal websites are another regard completely.

As Starfisher pointed out, don't put things up on a forum and ask for feedback and then get pissy when some of it is negative.

For God's sake, you must know at minimum that genka will trash it, right? And you know you'll instantly aggravate Mac users by saying things like "meant for PC viewing," right?

Anyway, you've got some design problems (it seemed to me right away that you broke several rules of proper layout), so put on your flameproof suit (like you should have in the beginning) and listen to the valid criticisms being offered.

Wylfing, what are proper layout 'Rules" in your opinion?

Also I have no problem with people giving advice and telling what they think, its the way Otana went about doing it that gave me a good laugh.

Also, and this is to Otana, If you have valid ideas then suggest them to me, go ahead and take the Jpeg and use photoshop to point out were i've gone wrong, and what the technical issues you believe there are.

As for now if anyone else wants to submit "Comps" or "Concepts" please feel free to do so, by the way to those of you that said meant for PC viewing is an insult to mac users, I think you missed the tail end of the sentence, it says " I will have to get around to putting up a mac friendly version later on".

Also wylfing if you can please give me an example of a website built based apon these rules, and Otana if you have a website, which you believe follows perfect functionaliy rules please share it with us.

While you don't have to be a webapge desginer to criticize a webpage (just as you don't have to produce/direct movies in order to criticize them), you should say more than "I don't like it, it breaks them rules". And if you feel you can do it better, by all means demonstrate it instead of engaging in long speeches.

Now, I'm neither a webpage designer nor do I think I can do better, but I have some criticism to offer. The layout seems fine with the link buttons big and easy to see, but I think the moon in the corner intrudes too much into the foreground and thus distracts a bit. I can see how you want to emphasize the part of it coming apart, but the image should go behind the foreground; maybe rotating it a little to allow the moon pieces to be seen between the buttons and text boxes?

Also, like CrippledPidgeon said, "Chronicles of Exile" ties the game too much to the Itani nation, which can be misleading as the Serco and UIT are protagonists, too. The best thing would be to ask the Devs for a better phrase to go there.

Finally, most Mac users are perfectly sensible folks who are unlikely to be insulted by a "This is for the moment PC-only, working on the Mac version" comment. Those few that start foaming at the mouth and go on a killing spree due to comments like these are few and far between, and easily avoided unless they live close by ;) .

I don't see what's wrong with the phrase "Chronicles of Exile," I really like it. All three nation factions are exiled from Earth equally, how is it that the phrase ties any more to one than any other?

But as far as redesigning the website, I'd say it's not broken, we don't need to fix it. No doubt it could be better, but there's really nothing wrong with the website as it is now, IMO; and there's far more important stuff for the devs to work on & for us to bicker about. ;-)

Alrighty. I'm not a web designer (I design and write for print), but good design follows certain principles no matter what medium you're working in.

First: The fundamentals of page layout start with blocking off the content area in proportion to the overall content size, and making bits of content fit into these "cells." This forces things to line up in a pleasing way and makes overall page usage seem natural and comfortable. See this URL:

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/tutorials/my/myyahoo/s_threecollayout.html

Notice how it uses proportions of 1/4, 1/4 and 1/2 to divide up the page. The tops of each column line up across the page to make it pleasant to look at.

So, regarding your comp:

1. The title block center aligns the words "Vendetta" and "Chronicles of Exile" but right aligns the word "online." This can be fixed by either center aligning "online" or dropping the phrase "Chronicles of Exile."

2. The text color in the title block appears to be gray, while the rest of the text on the page is white. Make all the text the same color, or else make the title block brighter.

3. All the corners are rounded except those of the title block. Choose one or the other.

4. The size of the "Available in Stores" and "Download Free Trial" buttons should be the same, or else line them up along an invisible grid.

5. The roundedness of the corners of the two buttons named in #4 is different. Make it the same.

6. When we get below the planet, the tops of all three columns do not line up. Align their tops.

7. Serif and sans-serif fonts are both used on the page without regard to function. I suggest going entirely over to sans serif fonts. If you must use 2 different fonts (never, ever use more than 2), use 1 only for headings and the other for all other text.

8. The rubrics "Game" and "Client" in the left column are too broad in meaning to have any value.

9. The difference between "Community," "Fansites," and "Guilds" is not clear. If by "Community" you mean "Message boards" then say what you mean.

10. The font size of the block of text in the middle column is far too small relative to the rest of the text on the page.

11. The planet in the corner, which is not content, occupies a disproportionate amount of space, is not confined to a proper cell of the page, and is in front of (and pushing around) legitimate content.

There you go.

I think you should use comic sans as the main font.

Copperplate Bold.

Thanks for the suggestions Wylfing, understnading that your coming from the writing a printing perspective, I'll try to give you exsacts and examples of where some of the styles i've used have been used before and well.

Now I understand the blocking off of content and as I've stated before this is just a "Comp" or in other words and early Idea of what would be the finished product.

The website you provide does do what you've stated well, but that type of design if more commonly used for search engines and corperate/news sites. While these designs serve there purpose and well, they do not catch your eye and make you want to know more. The planet jumping out at your face has been making alot of the people here go wow. However your suggestions about lining up the fonts are re- adjesting size etc, are very ligit and have already been done.

Things such as the Title block are now rounded, althou I might switch to a different one , which I wnot give away just yet. The planet has been moved and is no longer blocking up content, nor is it blowing out the text in the headline.

Overall thanks for the suggestions and very well noted.

The problem with the planet jumping at your face is that after the tenth time of it doing so, it gets annoying. I'm not saying it's easy, but the curse of the graphic designer is to make something that is both eye-catching and appealing, yet subdued enough that once the new wears off it fades into the background instead of demanding attention.

Obviously Otana & I are coming at this from two different perspectives.

In MY mind, I design a look and feel for a company (Or an Online Game such as.. say.. VO?), with color schemes, fonts, logos, graphics, etc. The design of everything from the manuals, print collateral, T-shirts and YES the website should all carry the same look and feel.

Making design exceptions so that someone in Bangladesh can peruse the website on their Palm III is ridiculous. We can make a separate site that uses CSS and XML / XHTML to address the issues of a 320 X 280 screen. "Dumbing down" a high-bandwidth, rich media website so that the lowest common denominator user can see it is not the way to go about things.

I can understand that Ottana is coming at this from a gearhead's perspective, and the technical aspects of a website should always be considered. But not at the cost of the design & graphics. The primary purpose of this website (and most websites) is marketing and communications for external audiences.

In my opinion, the IT structure of a website follows the lead of the design of a website. People just can't get excited or relate to a website that is coded REALLY well. They can't appreciate it. It may make the internal IT staff of a company very happy, and the beancounters very happy, but without a captivating design and marketing to support it, no one will go to your supercool website.

When was the last time your average Joe said. "WOW! This page was dynamically generated by a ASP script that someone got to work on a RedHat server! I thought that was impossible! That webguy must be AMAZING!" ? Never. People react to visuals and sound, not well-commented site programming that also runs well on PocketPC.

/me waits impatiently for Ottana Space to show us an example of cool stuff.

(Actually, perhaps I can use your services IRL since I am obviously weak on the technical side of things. Show me something. Msg me ingame. All of my clients need site redesigns, apparently it's the current fashion.)

Heres a revised and more complete version of the layout, Enjoy.



Heres alittle bit of a tweeked version, the text is Verdana now, more like you would see if you actually viewed the page.


Things incompleted or being fixed

1. The header or Logo
2. Trying to decide which free trial banner I should use, Vendetta's or my own.

Heres my design


3. Aligning text and boxs