Forums » Suggestions
At current missles are practicly useless for anything but Botting.. When fighting a human pilot, however, is a whole different story.
A: Short and inconsistant boosts can keep you ahead of any missle there is.. Even more true when it comes to fighters.. heh dodging in a hornet or anything as heavy/heavier is practicly out of the question .
B: The missle speed/manuverablity makes straifing out of the way a simple task, even outside the detonaition range of some missles. Also just boosting strait foward in just about any fighter type/small ship averts impact or detionation.
Missles need a trade off for thier mass and demand for ammo.. buying them and firing them to kill nothing is just waistful in many ways.
IMO and a few other players.
Missles velocities need to be increased by quite a good ammount..
A: Dumbfire missles.. Fastest of all.. well past the max boost speed to make up for thier inability to track.. maybe with a reduction in thier blast radius and even damage for some.. (also more varrity Smaller dumbiers with a very large payload *but thats just a thought)
B: Homeing missles.. Depending on size and type need the same as dumbfires.. but not quite as fast..
S-ports would be faster, say 150-165 mps for the smaller ones *least damaging and more capacity, more manuverable, could use a few more missles.* the larger S-ports would be the slower note quite as manuverable... *Seekers with detionation ranges would be the slower less manuverable of the S-port missles, With acception to the ones that require a Contact to detonaite, which would be the most manuverable of the tracting.
L-port missles: Sort of the reverse of above.. While the smallest versions might travel 120-140, Not quite as manuverable as their S-port small counterparts, a minor hit to thier damage output, *insert other tweeks or what not* (im thinking this up on the fly and im tired)
The Large L-ports would range from 90-115 mps have the most damage output and the largest blast radius *at the cost of damage varable to distance away from blast* (for all radius weps none the less.) and well manuverablity already sucks for most. not much will need tweeking there ^_^..Again Contact det missles would be the most manuverable.
This would give missles more of a roll in this game.. and more feasable to carry.. HOWEVER, Before all of you go and jump off your horses,,,, Im not without a few things to keep Missles from becoming choice weapons.. and spam weapons (which a few currently are. And i know this can be coded with ease as its been something thats done in almost any game of this or flight genra (blast my spelling if its wrong)
All tracting missles would require a target lock and aquisition system.. Meaning you would A: have to aquire an aspect lock on your target in order to fire the missle, intailing that you keep your redical/cof indicaitor on your targets LTI (Lead Target Indicaitor) Some locks would be lost after firing. Thus requiring another Aspect lock to be obtained.. Others would lose the ability to fire again if you fail to maintain your lineup of the LTI, also an increased refire time to keep this type of weapon from being fired again as soon as the last missle clears the ships area. That would prevent mass spamming. Although spamming would still happen it would be on a lesser scale.. Say after the salvo of a Chaos swarm or Locust swarm leaves the barrel has to cool for 5 seconds before it can be refired again ? The current Homing Missles will just fly to your target no matter if your facing him or not would disspear as well.. no more run-n-gun tactics
Secondly.. In order to counter blanace for the increased velocities... Flairs, Adv. Flairs, Counter meassures and "ECM" (smart) Countermeasures {dont mistake this for the term ECCM} could be introduced.. Just throwing a variety out.. Countermeasures in General would be satisfactory..
In concept the more advanced the flair/CM the more chances the homing missle will take the CM as its target. Drawbacks of the advanced types.. Less Ammo .. Weight should not become much of a factor. a difference of maybe 20kgs in total spread.. a perma port only for CMs should be added.. in some circumstances 2 ports for maybe Adv fighters or larger fighters that have more capacity. you just chose what type of CMs you what.. in turn the more advanced = more expensive (ammo based= $ per single round) the ECM (smart) CMs might fire on thier own upon detection of a missle launch at you, rather than manual fire.
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02:49AM Renegade ++RIP++
No,
rockets need to be made somewhat lighter and some of the larger l-port ones need to go faster and pack a heavier dent.
Since TS, it should not be that a small craft has as well the advantage of manouvring fast AND the ability to shoot them fast. It will just increase the ramming again. Meaning coming at 50m, shooting a double-tripple rocket load out and dodging out of the blastradius (or at least as much as possible which due to the higher manouvrability of the small ships is easy)
It makes fighting in a less manouvrable ship practically impossible, and makes small ships rule the game, just as it is/was in the future.
And that is something that I would not like to see back
cheers
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You missed the single most important point in my sujestion... Aspect locks... Do you have any idea how hard it is to turn with a ship thats 50m away from you. If it boosts out of your view you have to turn to shoot it again.. Maintaining or obtaining an aspect lock will be a very tricky buisness.. But to satisfy the concearn you stated. Maybe an Arming time should be introduced of 75-100 meters, if your closer than that the warhead will not detonaite... HOWEVER its that in itself that will cause "Ramming to increase" People will fly right up to you to avoid being slammed by a missle because they have none ... And you totaly ignored the Countermeasure part of my sujestion.. They increase the chances that your ship will not remain the target of the missle..... Please read, then reread if you feal you do not grasp the concept of what someone says enough to make a knowledgeable and insightful reply.
A: Short and inconsistant boosts can keep you ahead of any missle there is.. Even more true when it comes to fighters.. heh dodging in a hornet or anything as heavy/heavier is practicly out of the question .
B: The missle speed/manuverablity makes straifing out of the way a simple task, even outside the detonaition range of some missles. Also just boosting strait foward in just about any fighter type/small ship averts impact or detionation.
Missles need a trade off for thier mass and demand for ammo.. buying them and firing them to kill nothing is just waistful in many ways.
IMO and a few other players.
Missles velocities need to be increased by quite a good ammount..
A: Dumbfire missles.. Fastest of all.. well past the max boost speed to make up for thier inability to track.. maybe with a reduction in thier blast radius and even damage for some.. (also more varrity Smaller dumbiers with a very large payload *but thats just a thought)
B: Homeing missles.. Depending on size and type need the same as dumbfires.. but not quite as fast..
S-ports would be faster, say 150-165 mps for the smaller ones *least damaging and more capacity, more manuverable, could use a few more missles.* the larger S-ports would be the slower note quite as manuverable... *Seekers with detionation ranges would be the slower less manuverable of the S-port missles, With acception to the ones that require a Contact to detonaite, which would be the most manuverable of the tracting.
L-port missles: Sort of the reverse of above.. While the smallest versions might travel 120-140, Not quite as manuverable as their S-port small counterparts, a minor hit to thier damage output, *insert other tweeks or what not* (im thinking this up on the fly and im tired)
The Large L-ports would range from 90-115 mps have the most damage output and the largest blast radius *at the cost of damage varable to distance away from blast* (for all radius weps none the less.) and well manuverablity already sucks for most. not much will need tweeking there ^_^..Again Contact det missles would be the most manuverable.
This would give missles more of a roll in this game.. and more feasable to carry.. HOWEVER, Before all of you go and jump off your horses,,,, Im not without a few things to keep Missles from becoming choice weapons.. and spam weapons (which a few currently are. And i know this can be coded with ease as its been something thats done in almost any game of this or flight genra (blast my spelling if its wrong)
All tracting missles would require a target lock and aquisition system.. Meaning you would A: have to aquire an aspect lock on your target in order to fire the missle, intailing that you keep your redical/cof indicaitor on your targets LTI (Lead Target Indicaitor) Some locks would be lost after firing. Thus requiring another Aspect lock to be obtained.. Others would lose the ability to fire again if you fail to maintain your lineup of the LTI, also an increased refire time to keep this type of weapon from being fired again as soon as the last missle clears the ships area. That would prevent mass spamming. Although spamming would still happen it would be on a lesser scale.. Say after the salvo of a Chaos swarm or Locust swarm leaves the barrel has to cool for 5 seconds before it can be refired again ? The current Homing Missles will just fly to your target no matter if your facing him or not would disspear as well.. no more run-n-gun tactics
Secondly.. In order to counter blanace for the increased velocities... Flairs, Adv. Flairs, Counter meassures and "ECM" (smart) Countermeasures {dont mistake this for the term ECCM} could be introduced.. Just throwing a variety out.. Countermeasures in General would be satisfactory..
In concept the more advanced the flair/CM the more chances the homing missle will take the CM as its target. Drawbacks of the advanced types.. Less Ammo .. Weight should not become much of a factor. a difference of maybe 20kgs in total spread.. a perma port only for CMs should be added.. in some circumstances 2 ports for maybe Adv fighters or larger fighters that have more capacity. you just chose what type of CMs you what.. in turn the more advanced = more expensive (ammo based= $ per single round) the ECM (smart) CMs might fire on thier own upon detection of a missle launch at you, rather than manual fire.
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02:49AM Renegade ++RIP++
No,
rockets need to be made somewhat lighter and some of the larger l-port ones need to go faster and pack a heavier dent.
Since TS, it should not be that a small craft has as well the advantage of manouvring fast AND the ability to shoot them fast. It will just increase the ramming again. Meaning coming at 50m, shooting a double-tripple rocket load out and dodging out of the blastradius (or at least as much as possible which due to the higher manouvrability of the small ships is easy)
It makes fighting in a less manouvrable ship practically impossible, and makes small ships rule the game, just as it is/was in the future.
And that is something that I would not like to see back
cheers
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You missed the single most important point in my sujestion... Aspect locks... Do you have any idea how hard it is to turn with a ship thats 50m away from you. If it boosts out of your view you have to turn to shoot it again.. Maintaining or obtaining an aspect lock will be a very tricky buisness.. But to satisfy the concearn you stated. Maybe an Arming time should be introduced of 75-100 meters, if your closer than that the warhead will not detonaite... HOWEVER its that in itself that will cause "Ramming to increase" People will fly right up to you to avoid being slammed by a missle because they have none ... And you totaly ignored the Countermeasure part of my sujestion.. They increase the chances that your ship will not remain the target of the missle..... Please read, then reread if you feal you do not grasp the concept of what someone says enough to make a knowledgeable and insightful reply.
You didn't understand what he said at all. Making unguided rockets better, or by your suggestion, godly, will return us to the days when everyone would fly around with rockets blowing the crap out of everything. They do not need their velocity drastically increased, they need their weight slightly decreased.
Making guided missles better would result in a marked decrease in the skill of dogfights. Countermeasures with a "chance" of making the missle miss instead of having a proper technique that will cause the missle to miss all of the time mean that no matter how good yoo are, you are going to get hit sometimes. This sucks. Missles need a slight improvement, or maybe even none at all now that most fighters can't turbo for very long - you're suggestions would make them uber.
You have apparently never seen rockets employed with the proper technique. If you had, you would realize they don't need a speed increase at all, and that Renegade is spot on. His only fault was not explaining things clearly - "Please read, then reread if you feal you do not grasp the concept of what someone says enough to make a knowledgeable and insightful reply." was totally unecessary and flat out wrong.
Making guided missles better would result in a marked decrease in the skill of dogfights. Countermeasures with a "chance" of making the missle miss instead of having a proper technique that will cause the missle to miss all of the time mean that no matter how good yoo are, you are going to get hit sometimes. This sucks. Missles need a slight improvement, or maybe even none at all now that most fighters can't turbo for very long - you're suggestions would make them uber.
You have apparently never seen rockets employed with the proper technique. If you had, you would realize they don't need a speed increase at all, and that Renegade is spot on. His only fault was not explaining things clearly - "Please read, then reread if you feal you do not grasp the concept of what someone says enough to make a knowledgeable and insightful reply." was totally unecessary and flat out wrong.
Actually, I think that rockets need a boost. Missiles, No. Rockets, yes.
Rockets are skill weapons, and currently cause around 600-800 damage each, with an optimum case of about the double where the optimum -only- happens if the target is heading -towards- you while being shot, so the center of the explosion is -inside- his ship.
Boosting the damage values of standalone rockets would make them just a bit more usable and lethal, even in those corner proximity cases that are in fact -more- common now that ships speeds have increased a bit.
I also think that rockets need to be dropped down in mass to match the missiles.
Rockets are skill weapons, and currently cause around 600-800 damage each, with an optimum case of about the double where the optimum -only- happens if the target is heading -towards- you while being shot, so the center of the explosion is -inside- his ship.
Boosting the damage values of standalone rockets would make them just a bit more usable and lethal, even in those corner proximity cases that are in fact -more- common now that ships speeds have increased a bit.
I also think that rockets need to be dropped down in mass to match the missiles.
Oh I agree that they need a damage boost and a weight drop - but definately not a speed increase.
Well, let us make the distinction, unguided rockets are lacking, guided missiles are a true fire and forget weapon, not something that I will focus on at the moment. At the present, the ONE weapon that CANNOT kill a single player is the Iceflare. That is just a shame, it can't even deal out 6000 damage (8x700). Even a Starflare has trouble killing a player with its limited ammo, requiring 7 direct hits, in perfect conditions. Sadly, in practice flares don't deal maximum damage every time, the velocity vector of the target and position where the flare detonates affect the amount of damage they deal.
Sunflares are then hindered by their mass, definitely unable to be properly carried to match acceleration with an opponent. Damage is not so much an issue I believe, rather than the fact that mass makes them a highly inferior weapon to use against an opponent with a ship of otherwise equal acceleration (when excluding cargo and weapon masses).
For sake of realism I cannot understand why guided missiles with targeting systems and more ammo can be 1/3rd as massive as sunflares. Probably due to that affect, I have encountered no other flare user on the battlefield, although I've heard about Spider and Icarus using them, which I commend :D.
I agree that rockets require finesse, for they have inherent flaws, and for the most part I discover my use to require exploitation of the mistakes of my opponents. Unfortunately in some circumstances I can not overcome these flaws with such a massive launcher, to the point that victory is a mere sliver of a dream.
To solve the problem with Iceflares and Starflares, they merely need more damage. Now I think Sunflares need to be less massive. One of two situations can alleviate the bloatedness: 1) Flares lose mass altogether, or 2) The launcher is given a mass of its own while the ammo is given mass in addition. Personally I believe the total mass of flares needs to be lowered no matter what, but how the remaining mass is distributed, I am not sure how to argue yet.
Sunflares are then hindered by their mass, definitely unable to be properly carried to match acceleration with an opponent. Damage is not so much an issue I believe, rather than the fact that mass makes them a highly inferior weapon to use against an opponent with a ship of otherwise equal acceleration (when excluding cargo and weapon masses).
For sake of realism I cannot understand why guided missiles with targeting systems and more ammo can be 1/3rd as massive as sunflares. Probably due to that affect, I have encountered no other flare user on the battlefield, although I've heard about Spider and Icarus using them, which I commend :D.
I agree that rockets require finesse, for they have inherent flaws, and for the most part I discover my use to require exploitation of the mistakes of my opponents. Unfortunately in some circumstances I can not overcome these flaws with such a massive launcher, to the point that victory is a mere sliver of a dream.
To solve the problem with Iceflares and Starflares, they merely need more damage. Now I think Sunflares need to be less massive. One of two situations can alleviate the bloatedness: 1) Flares lose mass altogether, or 2) The launcher is given a mass of its own while the ammo is given mass in addition. Personally I believe the total mass of flares needs to be lowered no matter what, but how the remaining mass is distributed, I am not sure how to argue yet.
Another thing that most -rocket- style weapons could do well with is an increased ammo store. The current is enough to take on one, maybe two enemies, but not enough if you want to get into larger scale combat.
And as the balance is right now, taking a fighter back to a station and out again, is a difficult quest in that it is -very- timeconsuming due to the fighters limited boost.
[edit] this is based on the argument that only high-power fighters like the SVG and the Corvus Vulturis are -capable- of using rockets. [/edit]
And as the balance is right now, taking a fighter back to a station and out again, is a difficult quest in that it is -very- timeconsuming due to the fighters limited boost.
[edit] this is based on the argument that only high-power fighters like the SVG and the Corvus Vulturis are -capable- of using rockets. [/edit]
Believe me or not,
But I have played a lot with rockets, maybe more then you maybe not. I have blown up a lot of people and a lot of people have blown me up. If you had ever known the usage of rockets in the hand of icarus or even worse some of the newbies that didn't even bother to learn how to aim with a rocket but just tossed them around and hoped on the procimity trigger to detonate the rocket and get a hit in. Then you would hav eunderstood why I am reluctant to even consider your proposition. I do agree that they need to be upped but not by reducing the response time to actively dodge a rocket (especially due to the procimity detonation)
Once you have seen that, you don't have to be a genius to understand why letting rockets increase in speed is unnecessary.
The only reason why the bigger missiles need to be upped is because they don't even come close to the destructive power that 2 small port sunflares have (damagewise or procimitywise).
Anyway what I envision to be a nice or even correct balancing is this:
iceflares: damage same, weight 400-500
starflares: damage same, weight 500- 650
sunflares: damage same, weight 800 - 1000 (but best slightly below gauss)
--> you could use the lower values but once you start using multiple rockets on 1 ship, it could be that you will have to use the highest extreme values for calculating the masseffect. Just to not make multiple rocketsetups to powerfull, but not nerfed either. Its just an idea, but might be an idea but would help in balancing energy - missilebased weapons
jackhammers: damage upped with 10 - 30%, weight 1000 - 1200
screamers: damage upped with 10-30%, weight 1100 - 1400
avalon torpedo: damage was ok, weight probably around 2k-2.5k. (if they are even in that is)
don't know the exact values of their weight, but surely don't make them heigher then the large port weapons are now.
Some small remarks:
inconsistant boost WILL not keep you ahead of any missile. The reason for this being the ability to add the speed of a dumbfire rocket to the speed of your own ship. Effectively making a rocket go against 260+ mphs. Just to give an example. If you then consider your idea about making them 150+, then I am afraid to see a lot of rockets with the speed close to the one of a railgun AND xith a big procimity detonation. Could we say godly... Anyway this tactic/technique is best used on agile and fast crafts (which was the reason for the tripple-flare valk setups...). Not to mention that this will take the fun out of the game, at leas tin my opinion.
We need to make rockets a valid option but not overpowered.
Your option B is interlinked with the same remark. Not to mention the first strike potential that a rocket has. It is like 2+ times the amount of a normal tach. For which you have to counterbalance also.
cheers
PS: I don't like those countermeasures that make rockets blow up based on luck... especially since the game is based on skill or at least some understandings of the mechanics and not on throwing a dice.
Just indicative for reading purpose, not really that important:
one more reason, you can't ram if you do not do damage to yourselve, which is impossible for energyweapons. Anyway the easiest way to solve the rammingproblem is making it so that whenever you ram you blow up your own ship. As an explanation you could say that one of your rocketexit tubes was not completely closed yet with as a consequence that the remaining rockets or the pod itself blew up taking the fueltank with it and effectively taking out the entire ship. It will be another reason to use rockets as a seocndary weapon in stead of a primary weapon, unless your going kamikaze (but at least this costs you as well as the target) or are really good with rockets. And not introducing an arming delay, since that opens up to many exploits. If you however think this to be to severe, then consider the damage that you take to be 2 - 3 times the damage that you inflicted with the ram. Which would also solve the problem but in a less radical fashion. Or we could try and use the critical damage idea in here, meanig that if you ram you take critical damage in 1 of the portlaunchers, effectively diosabling it.
EDIT
Im not a big advocator of hightening the rocketsamount. But it might be an idea to have a rocketarmingweapon that acts as if you are recovering ammo in the same way as the healer is acting to recharge your hull points. It wll probablt be a L or even an XL port. And it could for instance be used as the next option : 110 power (same as railgun) = recharges with 1 rocket (higherr level ones first). Naturally you need to hit with the rearmer the ship. Which will probably be deployed in a less combatheavy place or a couple 1000m away spaced in the sector., easilly findable by the groupmembers. Which would again increase the reasons for groups or guilds or...
But I have played a lot with rockets, maybe more then you maybe not. I have blown up a lot of people and a lot of people have blown me up. If you had ever known the usage of rockets in the hand of icarus or even worse some of the newbies that didn't even bother to learn how to aim with a rocket but just tossed them around and hoped on the procimity trigger to detonate the rocket and get a hit in. Then you would hav eunderstood why I am reluctant to even consider your proposition. I do agree that they need to be upped but not by reducing the response time to actively dodge a rocket (especially due to the procimity detonation)
Once you have seen that, you don't have to be a genius to understand why letting rockets increase in speed is unnecessary.
The only reason why the bigger missiles need to be upped is because they don't even come close to the destructive power that 2 small port sunflares have (damagewise or procimitywise).
Anyway what I envision to be a nice or even correct balancing is this:
iceflares: damage same, weight 400-500
starflares: damage same, weight 500- 650
sunflares: damage same, weight 800 - 1000 (but best slightly below gauss)
--> you could use the lower values but once you start using multiple rockets on 1 ship, it could be that you will have to use the highest extreme values for calculating the masseffect. Just to not make multiple rocketsetups to powerfull, but not nerfed either. Its just an idea, but might be an idea but would help in balancing energy - missilebased weapons
jackhammers: damage upped with 10 - 30%, weight 1000 - 1200
screamers: damage upped with 10-30%, weight 1100 - 1400
avalon torpedo: damage was ok, weight probably around 2k-2.5k. (if they are even in that is)
don't know the exact values of their weight, but surely don't make them heigher then the large port weapons are now.
Some small remarks:
inconsistant boost WILL not keep you ahead of any missile. The reason for this being the ability to add the speed of a dumbfire rocket to the speed of your own ship. Effectively making a rocket go against 260+ mphs. Just to give an example. If you then consider your idea about making them 150+, then I am afraid to see a lot of rockets with the speed close to the one of a railgun AND xith a big procimity detonation. Could we say godly... Anyway this tactic/technique is best used on agile and fast crafts (which was the reason for the tripple-flare valk setups...). Not to mention that this will take the fun out of the game, at leas tin my opinion.
We need to make rockets a valid option but not overpowered.
Your option B is interlinked with the same remark. Not to mention the first strike potential that a rocket has. It is like 2+ times the amount of a normal tach. For which you have to counterbalance also.
cheers
PS: I don't like those countermeasures that make rockets blow up based on luck... especially since the game is based on skill or at least some understandings of the mechanics and not on throwing a dice.
Just indicative for reading purpose, not really that important:
one more reason, you can't ram if you do not do damage to yourselve, which is impossible for energyweapons. Anyway the easiest way to solve the rammingproblem is making it so that whenever you ram you blow up your own ship. As an explanation you could say that one of your rocketexit tubes was not completely closed yet with as a consequence that the remaining rockets or the pod itself blew up taking the fueltank with it and effectively taking out the entire ship. It will be another reason to use rockets as a seocndary weapon in stead of a primary weapon, unless your going kamikaze (but at least this costs you as well as the target) or are really good with rockets. And not introducing an arming delay, since that opens up to many exploits. If you however think this to be to severe, then consider the damage that you take to be 2 - 3 times the damage that you inflicted with the ram. Which would also solve the problem but in a less radical fashion. Or we could try and use the critical damage idea in here, meanig that if you ram you take critical damage in 1 of the portlaunchers, effectively diosabling it.
EDIT
Im not a big advocator of hightening the rocketsamount. But it might be an idea to have a rocketarmingweapon that acts as if you are recovering ammo in the same way as the healer is acting to recharge your hull points. It wll probablt be a L or even an XL port. And it could for instance be used as the next option : 110 power (same as railgun) = recharges with 1 rocket (higherr level ones first). Naturally you need to hit with the rearmer the ship. Which will probably be deployed in a less combatheavy place or a couple 1000m away spaced in the sector., easilly findable by the groupmembers. Which would again increase the reasons for groups or guilds or...
Right now there is a patch to solve the problem of recieving double damage from firing within proximity, that could just be removed to solve any ramming issues. I also think the ammo supplying gadget is a pretty good idea, assuming that too isn't limited by ammo so much. I'm not sure how a rearming device would work in space but I don't think it should take much longer than a normal trip to the station, maybe even be faster if both players cooperate and work efficiently.
As for heavy rockets I think they deserve greater velocity to counteract their mass, but the amount of damage is fair in my opinion. The issue I see isn't how much damage they do, but rather whether they have a chance of hitting their target. Since a Screamer does do equal damage to that of two Sunflares, I think that gives heavy ships a fair amount of firepower when those ships have the option of additional (S) port rockets, while a faster Jackhammer would give a better chance of hitting a target at some cost of damage, maybe a little less than the current 1000 damage difference.
P.S. Avalons are gone :P.
As for heavy rockets I think they deserve greater velocity to counteract their mass, but the amount of damage is fair in my opinion. The issue I see isn't how much damage they do, but rather whether they have a chance of hitting their target. Since a Screamer does do equal damage to that of two Sunflares, I think that gives heavy ships a fair amount of firepower when those ships have the option of additional (S) port rockets, while a faster Jackhammer would give a better chance of hitting a target at some cost of damage, maybe a little less than the current 1000 damage difference.
P.S. Avalons are gone :P.
thing is, I have always had more chance to hit with the bigger ones then with the smaller ones :D. Mostly because I really can't fly an overly agile ship, I constantly overturn or do to much :D
Maybe akan, but it depends who receives the double damage. But it could be yes, was just proposing an idea, if it gets implemented yeah me, if not ooh well.
Don't compare a screamer with a sunflare please, compar ethe jackhammer with the sunflare, since they have both the same idea. Screamers have a much lower proximity which in itself already makes the damage needed to be 2.5 - 3 times the damage of the higher proximity inclined missile/rocket (namely the sunflare)
Also don't forget that the usage of the jackhammer is great on the warthog, but that balance is still severely lacking(of making the heavy ships actually usefull in combat or even competetive) in the cases of the ragnarok, wraith, prom, ... so the larger /heavy ships.
<b>REARM GIZMO </b>
The rearm dohicle wasn't limitted by ammo, only by the rechargerate. Since it just costed 110 batterypower to recover 1 rocket. Seeing as a battery can regenerate +-50 sec it will probably take aboutish 2 secs to be able to delive the next shot. If needed we can always adjust the numbers later once we see that it is to hard to do. I just don't want people being able to hop in and out of combat with rockets, it would completely nullify the advantage of energyweapons in a combatsituation. Besides don't forget it is not a capital ship that makes you able to dock and be instantly replenished... that is for once the capital ships are introduced. This is just another large port utility device that can only be mounted on one of those large ships, to at least give them a use again. Even if it is momentarilly only as a supportship.
Besides, it opens up the levelling scheme a bit more for some more branches named engineering which will open you up to better healer ports, and better ammo replenishing goodies. Just another levelling branch, but which could be compared with the healer or engineer from FPS games. And maybe later is a subbranch of the later assembly licencebranch.
Maybe akan, but it depends who receives the double damage. But it could be yes, was just proposing an idea, if it gets implemented yeah me, if not ooh well.
Don't compare a screamer with a sunflare please, compar ethe jackhammer with the sunflare, since they have both the same idea. Screamers have a much lower proximity which in itself already makes the damage needed to be 2.5 - 3 times the damage of the higher proximity inclined missile/rocket (namely the sunflare)
Also don't forget that the usage of the jackhammer is great on the warthog, but that balance is still severely lacking(of making the heavy ships actually usefull in combat or even competetive) in the cases of the ragnarok, wraith, prom, ... so the larger /heavy ships.
<b>REARM GIZMO </b>
The rearm dohicle wasn't limitted by ammo, only by the rechargerate. Since it just costed 110 batterypower to recover 1 rocket. Seeing as a battery can regenerate +-50 sec it will probably take aboutish 2 secs to be able to delive the next shot. If needed we can always adjust the numbers later once we see that it is to hard to do. I just don't want people being able to hop in and out of combat with rockets, it would completely nullify the advantage of energyweapons in a combatsituation. Besides don't forget it is not a capital ship that makes you able to dock and be instantly replenished... that is for once the capital ships are introduced. This is just another large port utility device that can only be mounted on one of those large ships, to at least give them a use again. Even if it is momentarilly only as a supportship.
Besides, it opens up the levelling scheme a bit more for some more branches named engineering which will open you up to better healer ports, and better ammo replenishing goodies. Just another levelling branch, but which could be compared with the healer or engineer from FPS games. And maybe later is a subbranch of the later assembly licencebranch.
ok .. so unguided rockets get a speed boost = to your ships speed. fine... Missles on the other hand do not... ive passed missles ive fired at a target in front of me none the less.. or even at nothing at all on accident..
My sujestion for CM's did not apply to Dumbfire's. Quite frankly i dont really care what happens to dumbfires..IMO they should be small missles with low mass, low damage yield and high ammo. CM's were to balance the boost to the fire and forget... Which there still should be a few of. but Id prefer to obtain an aspect lock on my target even to fire the FaF missles, and to reaquire for another shot.. the problem is the FaFs are instant lock and even more spammed.. Yet the only thing they do is alarm any player.. very rarely have any of the FaF missles ive fired hit a player (unless i was practicly in thier face) nore have i been hit with very many FaF missles.. Im not an ACE pilot here but dodging them is insainly easy..
And yes you can outrun the FaF missles.. all you have to do is Boost above thier speed, let off for a moment. boost again, let go for a moment,and repeate. Ive tested it in a Vulture... You can maintain a good boost time/energy by tapping properly in intervals and maintain the speed/energy up untill you get near the maxium boost speed..even at 100-kph speeds to 120 kph on a Mk-III and Mk-IV you can keep your Energy in the 200's for a long ammount of time.. Try it yourself...
The Aspect lock keeps them from being spammed.. the increased speed and adjility increases thier chance to hit. (some might be more effective at hitting smaller craft but less damaging in return.. while some will be more suited for larger ships with a descent yeild) and the CM's keep them from becoming Ubber and "Overused" thus adding to the balance that is introduced with an Aspect lock.. you wont always be able to keep your redicule on your targets lead indicaitor, a bit of skill and practice will be required to make it easy. .. Even without them your skill alone could allow you to avoid them. Further more, with the better speed and adjility of the FaF missles make them slightly less destructive, and dont increase thier adjility so that the missle is a sure fire hit..
Just to add the 50/50 chance was a bit much.. i just threw it out there in haste... maybe make it a 15-20 % chance they will aquire the CM as the target, which wouldnt make them an ubber and reliable way to avoid a missle hit.
I just want some fun added to my combat experience. ATM the lack of missle use because of thier infectiveness makes combat engagements less enjoyable.. its all close range, in your face gunning. Consiting of either keeping your target close and confused while keeping them in your redicule and you out of thiers and who can do more twists, turns and straifing while hitting you more then you hit them. Which takes all the fun out of it IMO.
My sujestion for CM's did not apply to Dumbfire's. Quite frankly i dont really care what happens to dumbfires..IMO they should be small missles with low mass, low damage yield and high ammo. CM's were to balance the boost to the fire and forget... Which there still should be a few of. but Id prefer to obtain an aspect lock on my target even to fire the FaF missles, and to reaquire for another shot.. the problem is the FaFs are instant lock and even more spammed.. Yet the only thing they do is alarm any player.. very rarely have any of the FaF missles ive fired hit a player (unless i was practicly in thier face) nore have i been hit with very many FaF missles.. Im not an ACE pilot here but dodging them is insainly easy..
And yes you can outrun the FaF missles.. all you have to do is Boost above thier speed, let off for a moment. boost again, let go for a moment,and repeate. Ive tested it in a Vulture... You can maintain a good boost time/energy by tapping properly in intervals and maintain the speed/energy up untill you get near the maxium boost speed..even at 100-kph speeds to 120 kph on a Mk-III and Mk-IV you can keep your Energy in the 200's for a long ammount of time.. Try it yourself...
The Aspect lock keeps them from being spammed.. the increased speed and adjility increases thier chance to hit. (some might be more effective at hitting smaller craft but less damaging in return.. while some will be more suited for larger ships with a descent yeild) and the CM's keep them from becoming Ubber and "Overused" thus adding to the balance that is introduced with an Aspect lock.. you wont always be able to keep your redicule on your targets lead indicaitor, a bit of skill and practice will be required to make it easy. .. Even without them your skill alone could allow you to avoid them. Further more, with the better speed and adjility of the FaF missles make them slightly less destructive, and dont increase thier adjility so that the missle is a sure fire hit..
Just to add the 50/50 chance was a bit much.. i just threw it out there in haste... maybe make it a 15-20 % chance they will aquire the CM as the target, which wouldnt make them an ubber and reliable way to avoid a missle hit.
I just want some fun added to my combat experience. ATM the lack of missle use because of thier infectiveness makes combat engagements less enjoyable.. its all close range, in your face gunning. Consiting of either keeping your target close and confused while keeping them in your redicule and you out of thiers and who can do more twists, turns and straifing while hitting you more then you hit them. Which takes all the fun out of it IMO.
If you make fafs unable to be dodged by using boostpatterns then we will only see people use these. The Fire and forgot ones are there to annoy and not necessarily to hit a player every single time. Not to mention that the homing does actually work very very well, increae the speed and youll have a weapon that hits practically in 80% of the cases. While a dumbfire rocket needs actual skill (knowledge) to get this same 80% effetiveness. If you even ever come in this neighbourhood.
Besides, I have used them a lot and they were more effective then the dumbfire rockets, but by using them properly. They have advantages and disadvantages. What you propose is that they have no disadvantages or just that you create new disadvantages by adding in a dohicle that makes dodging guided rockets or missiles (its just a name) skilless.
Besides, if you can use short boosts to get rid of them, aren't you then using a skill to get rid of them? Aren't you letting the guy that shot them go and let him be able to run? Anyway, if you don't want him to run then youll try to dodge them at the place itself in stead of boosting around.
And as last remark, the lack of missile use is not because of them baing completely unusuable, but because neut3s are a lot lighter which has a serious influence. Decrease the weight of the rockets slightly in incremental steps and youll see them getting used more and more. And this without adding any dohicles that are based on 'chance' or rolling the dice.
PS: naturally I meant the speed of the ship gets added to the inheent speed of the weapon(rocket/missile) to make the actual speed of the rocket/missile.
cheers
Besides, I have used them a lot and they were more effective then the dumbfire rockets, but by using them properly. They have advantages and disadvantages. What you propose is that they have no disadvantages or just that you create new disadvantages by adding in a dohicle that makes dodging guided rockets or missiles (its just a name) skilless.
Besides, if you can use short boosts to get rid of them, aren't you then using a skill to get rid of them? Aren't you letting the guy that shot them go and let him be able to run? Anyway, if you don't want him to run then youll try to dodge them at the place itself in stead of boosting around.
And as last remark, the lack of missile use is not because of them baing completely unusuable, but because neut3s are a lot lighter which has a serious influence. Decrease the weight of the rockets slightly in incremental steps and youll see them getting used more and more. And this without adding any dohicles that are based on 'chance' or rolling the dice.
PS: naturally I meant the speed of the ship gets added to the inheent speed of the weapon(rocket/missile) to make the actual speed of the rocket/missile.
cheers
Oiy .. what a flaw in logic .. Missles *especialy in bulk* will always have more mass then an energy based gun* when your putting mass into the equasion of the game...
So think about what you just said dude... Missles arent used because they are to heavy..
Now think about this addition to your statement.. Missles arent used because there arent enough "Benifits" to constitute me fitting missles to my ship.
you could still make rockets lighter.. And most of your talk is concearning making "Rockets" lighter... my focus is making the FaF worth putting on a ship VS thier weight..
Your concearn about the larger ships getting hit "More".. your right they will get hit more. but they are also better armored and able to take more of a beating than that tincan adjile fighter... Quite frankly if your in a heavy ship your still going to find it much harder to dodge.. BUT, I NEVER SEE ANY BIG SHIPS!!!! Its allways small, fast, fighters. Which is Why Larger ships have 2.. count them. 2 CM launchers double the cappacity.. means they can fire more.. if they fire to many and run out then they are out of luck and did not skillfuly use the CM's. now they have to rely on pilot skills to get out alive. what do you know... reiteraiting CMs are ammo based to. not infinate.
"Not to mention that the homing does actually work very very well, increae the speed and youll have a weapon that hits practically in 80% of the cases"
If they work so well tell me why I usualy hit with none out of a full payload against everybody Ive faced. Not only did they dodge them easily, but they seemed unconcearned with the Missles presance. They maintained a bead on me with thier energy guns and kept hitting me...
Missles arent even effectiving enough items to gain more of the pilots attention so they breifly stop firing at you...which tells me their worthless items for thier mass because they don't funtion like a homing missle should. which is why they are not used..
Ive killed 2 players in this game with missle's just 2 .. One was just exiting through then end of the WH I was fixing to make a jump through. *only thing was is i felt bad after doing it since he wasnt carrying any CTC cargo from the convoy* the Second kill attacked me then Ran from my missles, can we way PvP noob.. he was flying a ship that required a few liscences in several catigories.. He did out run the missles .. Untill he stoped and turned around to fight me then got a facefulla quite a few shots of nuets and another volly of missles. poor fella never had a chance when since he forgot to turn off flight assist...
Just to throw something else in.. This game reminds me IDWar .. 2 was a bit better.. the missles were more accuate and CMs did exsist. But even without the CMs I was skilled enough to dodge the more accurate missles with to a good degree. Even in the Corvette. but man did I love my Adv. Patcom ^_^ BUT missles being fired at me, GOT my attention and made me concearned, instead of making me laugh.
Man I wish IDWar had of made it to the MMO level.. it was truely an awsome game. And very well balanced,though some weapons would of needed to be tweeked.. and there was no TLA system. Not to mention it had shields. but they only absorbed a good % of damage and they could only stand a few hits before they had to recharge and reactivate.
So think about what you just said dude... Missles arent used because they are to heavy..
Now think about this addition to your statement.. Missles arent used because there arent enough "Benifits" to constitute me fitting missles to my ship.
you could still make rockets lighter.. And most of your talk is concearning making "Rockets" lighter... my focus is making the FaF worth putting on a ship VS thier weight..
Your concearn about the larger ships getting hit "More".. your right they will get hit more. but they are also better armored and able to take more of a beating than that tincan adjile fighter... Quite frankly if your in a heavy ship your still going to find it much harder to dodge.. BUT, I NEVER SEE ANY BIG SHIPS!!!! Its allways small, fast, fighters. Which is Why Larger ships have 2.. count them. 2 CM launchers double the cappacity.. means they can fire more.. if they fire to many and run out then they are out of luck and did not skillfuly use the CM's. now they have to rely on pilot skills to get out alive. what do you know... reiteraiting CMs are ammo based to. not infinate.
"Not to mention that the homing does actually work very very well, increae the speed and youll have a weapon that hits practically in 80% of the cases"
If they work so well tell me why I usualy hit with none out of a full payload against everybody Ive faced. Not only did they dodge them easily, but they seemed unconcearned with the Missles presance. They maintained a bead on me with thier energy guns and kept hitting me...
Missles arent even effectiving enough items to gain more of the pilots attention so they breifly stop firing at you...which tells me their worthless items for thier mass because they don't funtion like a homing missle should. which is why they are not used..
Ive killed 2 players in this game with missle's just 2 .. One was just exiting through then end of the WH I was fixing to make a jump through. *only thing was is i felt bad after doing it since he wasnt carrying any CTC cargo from the convoy* the Second kill attacked me then Ran from my missles, can we way PvP noob.. he was flying a ship that required a few liscences in several catigories.. He did out run the missles .. Untill he stoped and turned around to fight me then got a facefulla quite a few shots of nuets and another volly of missles. poor fella never had a chance when since he forgot to turn off flight assist...
Just to throw something else in.. This game reminds me IDWar .. 2 was a bit better.. the missles were more accuate and CMs did exsist. But even without the CMs I was skilled enough to dodge the more accurate missles with to a good degree. Even in the Corvette. but man did I love my Adv. Patcom ^_^ BUT missles being fired at me, GOT my attention and made me concearned, instead of making me laugh.
Man I wish IDWar had of made it to the MMO level.. it was truely an awsome game. And very well balanced,though some weapons would of needed to be tweeked.. and there was no TLA system. Not to mention it had shields. but they only absorbed a good % of damage and they could only stand a few hits before they had to recharge and reactivate.
TS,
That is your idea of a missile to have more mass then an explosive warhead. Who knows the amount of powercharger, phase generators, focus crystals and what not you need to generate this cool neut3 projectile. Don't base yourselve on some flawed opinion about energy having to be lighter...
Anyway, the reason why I was talking about making rockets and missiles lighter is because at the moment it is not the unbalancedness of the rockets, or the overpoweredness of the energyweapons that is the driving factor in the non usage of rockets as a fightingweapon. BUT the difference in weight which makes bigger ships even mroe a target then they were before or that make an energy loadout so much easier to dodge then a rocketloadout. Maybe even so untill the point of running circles around this person with a rocketloadout. And the reason on what I am basing all this is my experience of vendetta in alpha, beta and some ingame. I still remember the time where rockets where the most powerfull tool (later together with gausses). But since the introduction of mass they got the shaft, meaning that once you play a bit around logic would dictate that balance will reinstate itself. But tell me 1 thing what help is armor and a severely hard hitting potential when you can't even keep a lock on the agressor? And all this happened since the introduction of mass (well before heavy ships weren't easy to win agaisnt lighter ships, but it was manageable. When mass got introduced it became practically impossible). And a little sidenote, there where a couple people that were decent with the heavy ships, and I was one of them (although uncledave was the best). But it took a looot more time or skill to survive then a valk or a lighter fighter did.
If you can't hit anybody with a full payload, then you are shooting them on the wrong times. I suggest you learn to use dumbfire rockets and use a couple of those tactics on the guided ones (which do less damage htn the dumbfire ones). I also think you haven't seen the effect of the uber tracking homers... and all this just because the code got improved somewhat. Making them more speedy will have a similar effect. Since it will be able to faster adjust for changes in your movement which might prove to hard to dodge afterwards. Anyway once weight gets a bit adjusted time will solve itself. If you don't believe me so be it, it is my opinion and I can't be dissuaded from it. Unless you come with real ingame examples which I can relate to easilly.
cheers
That is your idea of a missile to have more mass then an explosive warhead. Who knows the amount of powercharger, phase generators, focus crystals and what not you need to generate this cool neut3 projectile. Don't base yourselve on some flawed opinion about energy having to be lighter...
Anyway, the reason why I was talking about making rockets and missiles lighter is because at the moment it is not the unbalancedness of the rockets, or the overpoweredness of the energyweapons that is the driving factor in the non usage of rockets as a fightingweapon. BUT the difference in weight which makes bigger ships even mroe a target then they were before or that make an energy loadout so much easier to dodge then a rocketloadout. Maybe even so untill the point of running circles around this person with a rocketloadout. And the reason on what I am basing all this is my experience of vendetta in alpha, beta and some ingame. I still remember the time where rockets where the most powerfull tool (later together with gausses). But since the introduction of mass they got the shaft, meaning that once you play a bit around logic would dictate that balance will reinstate itself. But tell me 1 thing what help is armor and a severely hard hitting potential when you can't even keep a lock on the agressor? And all this happened since the introduction of mass (well before heavy ships weren't easy to win agaisnt lighter ships, but it was manageable. When mass got introduced it became practically impossible). And a little sidenote, there where a couple people that were decent with the heavy ships, and I was one of them (although uncledave was the best). But it took a looot more time or skill to survive then a valk or a lighter fighter did.
If you can't hit anybody with a full payload, then you are shooting them on the wrong times. I suggest you learn to use dumbfire rockets and use a couple of those tactics on the guided ones (which do less damage htn the dumbfire ones). I also think you haven't seen the effect of the uber tracking homers... and all this just because the code got improved somewhat. Making them more speedy will have a similar effect. Since it will be able to faster adjust for changes in your movement which might prove to hard to dodge afterwards. Anyway once weight gets a bit adjusted time will solve itself. If you don't believe me so be it, it is my opinion and I can't be dissuaded from it. Unless you come with real ingame examples which I can relate to easilly.
cheers
To put it simply, rockets are fine. You CANNOT expect to be able to use a rocket like an energy weapon, just like you cannot expect a ragnarok to handle like a centurion. If you dont believe go up against a skilled rocket user, bet you die.
tramshed, if even Icarus complains that sunflares(missiles) are worth nothing, then I think that at least some small adjustments are needed for the average person.
And if I see him make the notice of reducing the weight a bit, then I can agree to that.
And if I see him make the notice of reducing the weight a bit, then I can agree to that.
"That is your idea of a missile to have more mass then an explosive warhead. Who knows the amount of powercharger, phase generators, focus crystals and what not you need to generate this cool neut3 projectile. Don't base yourselve on some flawed opinion about energy having to be lighter..."
That statement above is pure insinuation.. DO NOT tell me how i think. Do NOT proceed to even think you know how my mind works. That single biased thought in your head that is keeping you from understanding "Exacty" what I'm sujesting...You must be mearly skimming over the words. Reading some where and some there to come to your own conclusion of what im trying to say. Thusly butchering my posts... SOOOOOOOOOOOOO. If you read just a little more carefuly youll find the mention to making them a bit lighter... I never said make them heavier thats for sure.. But just so long as i can get an enjoyable combat experiece, ill be happy. And just in case its not obvious. THEY DO NEED TO BE LIGHTER.
Oh and by the way if youve read the post about lossing mass on a per shot basis for missles.. Its kind of interesting.. its somewhere in sujestions. but a darn good idea at that.. would compliment missles quite well...
That statement above is pure insinuation.. DO NOT tell me how i think. Do NOT proceed to even think you know how my mind works. That single biased thought in your head that is keeping you from understanding "Exacty" what I'm sujesting...You must be mearly skimming over the words. Reading some where and some there to come to your own conclusion of what im trying to say. Thusly butchering my posts... SOOOOOOOOOOOOO. If you read just a little more carefuly youll find the mention to making them a bit lighter... I never said make them heavier thats for sure.. But just so long as i can get an enjoyable combat experiece, ill be happy. And just in case its not obvious. THEY DO NEED TO BE LIGHTER.
Oh and by the way if youve read the post about lossing mass on a per shot basis for missles.. Its kind of interesting.. its somewhere in sujestions. but a darn good idea at that.. would compliment missles quite well...
Rockets != Missiles. Keep that in mind, since I've seen Sunflares called missiles here. Missiles are guided. Rockets aren't.
Actually, I don't see "few" missiles in use, I see them quite often used as a complimentory weapon by various pilots, who pack a single seeker together with some energy weapon, and use the seekers appropiately.
However, ROCKETS, you don't see much in the game.
However, ROCKETS, you don't see much in the game.
TS,
I based myself on this quote, nothing else, since this statement in itself was enough to make up this entire part
<quote>
Oiy .. what a flaw in logic .. Missles *especialy in bulk* will always have more mass then an energy based gun* when your putting mass into the equasion of the game... </quote>
well in my idea missiles are the same as rockets. If you wanna speak about guided missiles then we are speaking about heeters or seekers. If your speaking about the heavy ship ones, then your speaking about large weaponslot missiles or rockets. Anyway always presumed rockets = missiles = explosive warhead (projectile form)
I based myself on this quote, nothing else, since this statement in itself was enough to make up this entire part
<quote>
Oiy .. what a flaw in logic .. Missles *especialy in bulk* will always have more mass then an energy based gun* when your putting mass into the equasion of the game... </quote>
well in my idea missiles are the same as rockets. If you wanna speak about guided missiles then we are speaking about heeters or seekers. If your speaking about the heavy ship ones, then your speaking about large weaponslot missiles or rockets. Anyway always presumed rockets = missiles = explosive warhead (projectile form)
Then thats the whole reason of the missunderstanding!!.. you based your whole bit on ONE single quote and not the sum of my sujestions.. O_o
I based that quote on fact.. Anything engergy based that does not have solid ammo is going to be lighter than something that has ammo.. 1 energy gun vs a full Rack of missles ..Say something like the chaos or locust which is a large load, but fires 8 at a time .. each of those missles might weigh about 1/2 or 1/4 the weight of the gun.. but since at the moment the mass of the missles individualy isnt calculated, and you dont get lighter by firing off missles, that makes the missles to heavy to really mess with.. So I understand your point..
I just threw Unguided rockets in there as a point in case, with no relivant reasoning.. opps.. Mostly im more concearned with the Seeking Missles..
Sooo.. Lets focus on Guided missles and how to make them more useful and used shall we ^_^.. What sujestions, if any, do you like or sorta like and might like with a bit of tweeking.. Lets turn this into a darned productive discussion..
Keep in mind im not looking to make them UBBER.. but just slightly more "effective" at what they do. and thusly a bit more used.. while still keeping a balance, to make combat more "FUN" and "Exciting"
I based that quote on fact.. Anything engergy based that does not have solid ammo is going to be lighter than something that has ammo.. 1 energy gun vs a full Rack of missles ..Say something like the chaos or locust which is a large load, but fires 8 at a time .. each of those missles might weigh about 1/2 or 1/4 the weight of the gun.. but since at the moment the mass of the missles individualy isnt calculated, and you dont get lighter by firing off missles, that makes the missles to heavy to really mess with.. So I understand your point..
I just threw Unguided rockets in there as a point in case, with no relivant reasoning.. opps.. Mostly im more concearned with the Seeking Missles..
Sooo.. Lets focus on Guided missles and how to make them more useful and used shall we ^_^.. What sujestions, if any, do you like or sorta like and might like with a bit of tweeking.. Lets turn this into a darned productive discussion..
Keep in mind im not looking to make them UBBER.. but just slightly more "effective" at what they do. and thusly a bit more used.. while still keeping a balance, to make combat more "FUN" and "Exciting"