I'm wondering why the Gatling Turret doesn't do more damage per shot.

Currently it does 400 damage with a .1 second delay, giving 4000 damage per second. However, its inaccuracy means that hits are more rare at longer ranges, despite the better auto aim. The Neutron II does 600 per shot with .14 second delay, giving 4285 damage per second, so a tri neut Valk does more than three times the damage of a hog with a gatling turret and it's on a much more maneuverable platform so despite taking more of a mass hit than the hog does, it can still track a lot faster.

I know that weapons are going to be balanced for mass later, but I'm feeling very frustrated right now. I fought an inferior enemy who was flying a Valk, and despite that I was scoring several hits with my turret on nearly every single pass I took, and he was only scoring hits every 4 or 5 passes, he was still able to beat me. I'd deal damage with nearly each pass, but every so often, he'd score with a bunch of neutron hits because his guns were so closely grouped, that the fight would become neutral, or towards his favor until he eventually won.

I feel that the gatling cannon and turret should deal more damage per second than the neutron III (maybe 5000 per second - 500 per shot on the GT). They're already balanced by being quite heavy and having higher inaccuracy than any other weapon in the game, but they're so outclassed by the neutron II and definitely the III (especially on the Valk), that it's usage is difficult to justify. They're large weapons: they should do large damage, shouldn't they?

Don't forget that they're inherantly close-range weapons (probably under 100m to get a significant number of hits per burst), so people with the more accurate small weapons will have an advantage during the approach, as well as likely having far more maneuverable platforms on which to employ their weapons.

large port weapons need to be way more powerful
i like the large port rockets but energy weapons suck...they need to be double to tripple that of the small port counter parts

"oh but then the hog will be a super problem"

no it wont, it isnt as easy to swing around as back in the day when I was frequently engaged in battle.

A rag or a centaur with super large port gun atleast have a chance in that first pass to deal a serious blow in this scenario because you know as soon as the lighter ship gets in range it just runs circles around it.

More power! *grunt grunt grunt*

Not only are ships equipped with Large ports always heavier than the other ships, but Large port weapons are also much heavier than their small port couterparts ! I completely agree that this makes sense semantically, but in terms of gameplay this is not so sure. I certainly would like the Warthog to become more competitive against lighter fighters (either by being slightly lighter, or by making the L weapons more effective), currently it's all Valk or Vult, and little else.

A Gatling Turret is not underpowered. Believe me this. I've seen warthog pilots with a gatling and a sunflare make short work of Valkyries.

Iv'e seen ec-88 make short work of Valkyres. All that is required is that the valk is away from keyboard and doesn't move his ship.

its the same when you get on an warthog vs. valkyre. OF COURSE its balanced when the valk pilot isn't moving.

And because that, the AGT isn't overpowered?

I'm fed up with your whining that as soon as any newbie who doesn't know how to move their ship with more than one key at the time can be killed by -anything- the valk is of course balanced and everything should be left against it.

So rogue, if thats all you're ever going to add to a debate like this. Just shut up.

Towards The original poster, I quite agree.
Here are a suggestion for changing the base values of the AGT to make it somewhat competetive.

Mass: 450 kg
Velocity : 195 m/s
Damage: 500
Rate of fire: 0.1
Energy consumption : 10

Add 50 Mass, 100 damage, and increase energy consumption with 1.5 and you get a mkII version.

For the improved one, lets simply count a 1x L port as 2s ports and combine the damage values of an optimal 2s setting, to go with.

Mass:400
Velocity: 215m/s
Damage: 1600
Rate : 0.07
Energy: 11/blast

Or somesuch.

Of course. you now need to insert a whining from pro-valk players who will complain that it will eliminate the valk due to its crappy pilots, the big size of it, or the fact that it really -is- balanced and the only reason we don't see prom's ing ame is... oh wait, the AGT was balanced! RIGHT!

So, now that I have preempted your whining, lets ignore the rest of those.

With a few noted exceptions, all the Large port weapons are underpowered. This is not a new observation. We've all been complaining about it for some time. Oddly enough, I think the Advanced Gatling (I refuse to call it a turret) is one of the few balanced Large port weapons due to its extremely high autoaim.

When estimating the balance of a weapon, you can't just rely on the damage per second. There are all sorts of other factors involved: velocity, effective accuracy, energy per point of damage, first strike effect, ammunition, weight, and so forth. Taking into account all these factors reveals that the Advanced Gatling is an exceptionally good weapon. But there is an even better test, and that is going out and using the weapon in combat. The Advanced Gatling has long been a staple PvP weapon, and rougelazer is correct - properly used it can make short work of a Valk.

Which isn't to say that when all the balancing of weapons was complete that the Advanced Gatling wouldn't be slightly more powerful, merely that it is not a place to start balancing the weapons.

Celebrim: The point I'm arguing against isn't that the GT might be balanced or not. Compared to the most predominant PvP weapon today it isn't, mostly because its extremely low velocity in comparsion (almost 50m/s lower, makes it -exceptionally- easy to dodge it)

The thing I seriously hate about roguelazers post is that its balanced because he has seen a n00b in their first valk be owned by somone who has been practicing combat with their turret/Warthog combat for a long time. The fact that because a valk can die to it, its balanced, is an utterly -pathetic- point of argument.

As for weapons and so on, the mass is incredibly silly on all the L-port weapons, for them to compare to that mass, they should be near one-hit-kill weapons, if they are to be useful.

The Plasma Devastator is marginally better than the gauss, and as such, completely underpowered.

The thing that is important to remember, is that the L port weapons have to offset the larger and bulkier ships. To balance them, you have to give them enough of an edge to warrant changing out of a light vulture and into a heavier craft with far less chances. This can be taken out into fex. Cargo ports (centaus vs. marauder fex. ) however, for fighter-class ships it has to be a question of armament.

This means, that to balance the L port weapons, they have to offset the loss of manouverability as well as the other, worse, statistics.

In this case, a smarter aim for the ships -might- -sometimes- offset it. So, a warthog with an L port weapon must be able to offset not even being able to hold a valkyre in the monitor, even less shoot it.

The plasma devastator does nothing of this.

The Gatling Cannon doesn't even -try- to do anything of it.

The AGT tries to fend off the first part, manouverability, with a stream that is so slow that you can fly in between the individual shots of their fire when you dodge it.

My suggestion is to overboard, make the L port weapons 20-40% higher velocity than their s-port counterparts. Reduce the weight of them, as the weight of the L-port capable ships have already offset the advantage. Increase the damage up to the point where a light craft like the vulture can stand maybe 4 shots before they are annihilated.

*ahem*

"-The next update will focus mainly on gameplay rebalancing and tweaking of existing game content.-"

Why dont we let these flames die until after the update. the devs know its a problem, they have seen the other 400 posts on these subjects.

Thank you.
(/me points a fire extinguisher at a certain arachnid)

Spider:

My most recent post on this subject is here:

http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/7535#89324

If you really want me to, I could dig back into the past to find similar posts dating back to well over a year. So to a certain extent, not only are you preaching at the choir, but you are preaching at the most fundamental extremist in the choir.

The last I was aware, the Advanced Gatling had a velocity of 180m/s. If they've nerfed the weapon since I last used it between giving it an enormous weight and also reducing its velocity to 160m/s or something, then I understand your frustration. They've made those sorts of ...inexplicable....decisions (often at the vocal urging of the majority of the fan community) for years now. Unfortunately, I can't vent my frustration in a manner that is productive, so you'll just have to take my word for it that these things bug me maybe more than they bug anyone who is still playing the game.

What do you want me to do about it? I've spent more verbage on these boards just begging for balancing the weapons than anyone else on the board has on all topics combined. I've spent more time making suggestions on this board than probably the next 5 posters combined. I've worn myself ragged trying to convince the devs that two or three days worth of weapon rebalancing and similar gameplay fixes would serve them better than two or three months worth of new features. It's quite clear that they have thier own plans and nothing I say or do on this subject is going to alter those plans. And in any event, it's a bit late for that now, don't you think? So don't expect me to get worked up and deliver yet another multipage treatis on what all is wrong with the design of the weapons, ships, etc.

yea but theytest with like 4 people, so what balances for them enver seems to balance for us so offering a few suggetsions wont kill anyone.

so, Large port

more damage
move faster

i dont agree with them being lighter as one suggested, they are large! if they are going to be more powerful and hit more often then to offset it they should be heavy. sure a rag turns like a pig but if it gets a shot off you're screwed. thats the way heavy ships are supposed to be. as it stands now if you are in a heavy ship and you get a shot off, oh well no big deal just the same ol damage. but with faster more powerful (but heavy) guns get a shot off and valk or other ship goes flying from the impact.

Going from past experience, I would say leave the AGT alone. Unless something is obviously overpowered or underpowered, there's no need to change it, and it's hard to argue from a weapons statistics (d.p.s. etc.) standpoint since these numbers can often times be misleading. There are unique things about each weapon (right down to the actual shape of the shot) that can lend unforseen advantages. The only real way to tell if something is balanced or not is to practice with it in combat for large amounts of time. I remember back in the day during one of the large sector wars we had I took down 4 pilots in a row using a hog with sunflares and AGT. The advanced gatling turret is definitely not underpowered. Nor is the plasma devastator. In my opinion the only large port energy weapon that could be argued to be underpowered is the basic gatling cannon.

I haven't seen an advance gatling make short work of a valk since the neut III's came in to play. I think it's the neut III's that are unbalanced though, not the gatling. Could we drop thier speed? They are harsh against slow targets the way gauss used to be (for different reasons but it's the same end)

Although once the engines are fixed I could see the added maneuverability making a big difference to the hog gatling combo. We'll see I guess.

The players, who know me a little, know (argh ... twice *know*), that i am a *heavy user* of the agt. And sometimes i think, i am not that bad with it.

But since the agt has - same like the gauss - a mass, it is not very usefull. And since we have a valk with triple neutron3 with a weight under 4 k, the so called *excellent auto aim* is a piece of crap. The agt is not able to hold the aim fixed to a valk, when the *enemy* is more than 50 m away from you. But under 50 m a triple neutron valk slaughters every hog ... not talking about the prom.

Linda
<closing the circle>

Celebrim: I know that very well, and I've stated repeatedly that I agree with you.

What they -have- done is made the light weapons 20% faster, while keeping the L port weapons the same, effectively nerfing the L port weapons.

They have also made the AGT have a mass that is approaching 1400kg (1399kg, I think) which lowers its manouverability even more.

Add to this that its "excellent" auto-aim doesn't cover for boosting, (no aim does) and you can simply fly straight against a AGT at a slight angle, and just tap the boost repeatedly. This will offset the aim enough to make sure that you get a 0 hit rate.

I'll withdraw from this conversation simply because if I respond to Spider, this will become a flamefest.

I think the gattling cannon needs to be changed a light weapon. It does nowhere near the damage of the turret, or as accurate. So really as a large weapon its pointless because if someone wants a gat they take the turret.

Compared to other light energy weapons I think the neutron is overpowered though, especially the MK3s

NasherUK: the gatling cannon does less damage than the gatling turret, but has a firing rate, so if you calculate it out, it does the same amount of damage per second as the gatling turret does. On top of that, it has the same inaccuracy the gatling turret does, just that it doesn't have a "good auto-targeting" mount.

it's a jitter gun :)

I think the major problem with the Gatling Cannon is that it isn't available to the people beginning with Large Weapon #1. I think of it as the equivalent of the Ion Blaster. It's a weapon that players just starting out on the Large Weapon tree could use until they get something better. Other than that, it - like most of the starting weapons of any type - uses too much energy.

I understand what CP is saying, but I think the point of HEAVY weapons is for them to be a disadvantage when you're PvPing, where speed is everything. THey're great for botting and everything when you barely need to strafe at all, but I don't think they need to be changed too much just for the sake of PvP.

And for the record CP, it was 2 neu2's.