"I understand what CP is saying, but I think the point of HEAVY weapons is for them to be a disadvantage when you're PvPing, where speed is everything. THey're great for botting and everything when you barely need to strafe at all, but I don't t
think they need to be changed too much just for the sake of PvP."

I don't think you know what the point of the heavy weapons is. So, lest this point be lost on you, ask yourself why should we bother to have two classes of weapons at all? Why bother have configurable weapons period? What's is the point of it all?

Hint: Why don't we just have one ship for everyone?

QED.

I understand what smittens is saying, but I think he has it exactly backwards from what I meant.

[rant]
I'm going to go CRAZY if I don't say this in an open forum!

I'm SICK AND TIRED of this! I spent the three hours I was online tonight in Sedina B8 with a couple other Serco trying to fight off twice that number of Itani and UIT. It's not that I minded being outnumbered - it was actually quite fun, but to my recollection, I was able to NEARLY kill all six of the Itani and UIT at least twice, if not more, and they were all easily able to turn, and boost away to safety and repair, while my agt loaded hog was piecemeal for them because if I wanted to disengage and repair, I'd get whooped on.

I probably gave those six players 15-25 kills during that period, and despite nearly killing ALL of them multiple times, they all were able to out-boost me in their valks, mauds, and vults and escape death. I had ZERO kills after THREE HOURS OF NEARLY NON-STOP COMBAT! THREE HOURS!!! PVP is lots of fun! It gives a terrific adrenaline boost, but what's the point if no one dies except me?! I don't like expending a lot of energy trying to out-maneuver and out-shoot ships much faster than me, only to watch my near kill just turn and fly away as if we were just playing around.

ARGH! IT FRUSTRATES THE HELL OUT OF ME to put so much effort into trying to overcome all of the disadvantages the warthog has in battle against smaller, faster ships, only to have my reward of a kill stolen from me just because they can accelerate two or three times faster than I can, and just shrug off my fire while thumbing their noses in my direction. Don't get me wrong, I like fighting in the hog - in my opinion, its the best, most well rounded ship the Serco have! It has a nice potential mix of weapons, and I feel that its disadvantages can be overcome with the proper tactics - nothing makes me happier than to show a valk jock that his shiny new ship ain't the toughest mother in the galaxy - but this ability to just run away at the whim of the pilot makes it as if I'm the only one taking the fight seriously. I know that if I slip up ONCE, I'm dead meat. The Valk can slip up once, and just boost away to repair as if we were just play fighting. It's ridiculous!

I go into battles knowing that I'm going to fight to the death. I expect other people to do so as well. If you're not willing to fight to the death, then you shouldn't fight at all, in my opinion.
[/rant]

I'm not saying this to attack any one specific player, and I'd like it if this doesn't spark a flame war about who ran away from who.

I would like people who read this to consider whether they plan on running from battle all the time, or if they intend on fighting me to the natural conclusion of the battle. And if you do keep running from battle, don't be surprised if I decline to fight you because it's not worth it to me to expend the energy to fight someone to 15% and have them just go and repair.

well CP perhaps the railgun will be usable again after the rebalence that is due. a valkyire can run all it wants but if it's below 15 hull a rail is going to take it out in probably 1 shot. this would reduce running to... zero.

i've tried a hog with a plasma devistator mk1 and a railgun mk3. this is actaully a pretty good loadout but it's too heavy at the moment. the railgun makes a hell of a difference when they try to run and i have sucessfully killed many runners with it.

.. the main problem is weight. i'm confident the weight system will be justified correctly. these issues will disapear as more weapons other than tachyon mk3s will not have such a negative impact as they do now. this includes the railgun

I'm hoping that the engine balance will include things like the light fighters have a quick acceleration but a lower absolute top speed so even if they can get a head start, they can be overtaken again... eventually.

sure, I'd use a railgun to catch the runners, but if I'm fighting more than one person at once, I'd prefer to bag the next nearest target because if I stop to aim the rail at the runner, I immediately become a sitting duck for the guy who's closest to me.

I'm just ticked that I fought all those people last night, and NONE of them would let me take a finishing shot on them. Well okay, solution did once, but I screwed up and drifted straight into his duel neut stream, but that was the only chance I had all night, and it was the only 1v1 I had all night as well. All the rest just turned and turboed away with no fear of retaliation because they knew that the second they did, I would be unable to follow because of the other targets around me. The one time I did try to follow a runner, I was immediatly cut to pieces. It's not the dying that bothered me - I was up against overwhelming odds and I knew that I would die - I wanted to see how many of them I could take with me. Apparently none.

Or two nights ago when I got jumped by an Itani who was sitting in a wormhole who launched all of the gems from his quad gem hornet, and while I got one good run on him, he just jumped back and forth through the wormhole to prevent getting damaged. If you're going to be dumb enough to use an all-missile loadout without an escort, give me the chance to kill you like you deserve.

Or I fight someone's vult with my hog, and I take them to probably 20% and receive little or no damage, but as I make my last pass, they turn and just absolutely outrun me. A little disappointed, I leave as well cuz heck, they attacked me while I was going from one end of gray space to the other. Soon they get on to 100 and complain that I ran away from them! HELLO!

Yes, I know that, having a player retreat is a technical kill because they had to withdraw from battle, but I don't see a "Forced Players to Retreat: ##" listing in my stats, cuz if there were, I'd have dozens.

[edit]
I had posted my rant on my own thread, even though it was off topic because for my own sanity, I just had to voice my frustrations and I figured that it would sound more like whining if I'd created a new thread on the general forum. But maybe when I'm thinking more clearly, I will make a thread there.
[/edit]

"... and NONE of them would let me take a finishing shot on them."

Dude... no one is going to let you kill them. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. PvP is about winning, not making sure the poor guy trying to fight in the crappy ship doesn't feel bad.

Yes, the ships need to be fixed so that you can force the kill if he tries to run. I completely agree on that score, and I hope the rebalance patch coming up addresses this issue. Until then, though, you have to play within the rules of the universe as they exist. Rant all you like, but if you actually expect people in Vult IVs to stick around so you can get a kill you've got a hell of a skewed perspective on PvP combat.

Honestly. If you identify a ship combination that sucks, make a note of it for the devs, vent.. AND THEN CHANGE THE SHIP YOU'RE FLYING! If it sucks today and the patch isn't till next week, it's going to suck tomorrow. Adapt. Overcome. Don't complain about how you can't kill anyone because you're flying a crappy ship after you've had weeks to identify the problem.

The GT is probably 1 of the best weapon in game (YEA NO NEED SKILL TO SHOOT = AUTO TARGETTING) but it requier a Large port.

It's a good idea to increase the GT damage
But you are going to make the Warthog overpowered
But it will balance the Promethus.

PS
The warthog + GT is already better than Valkyrie and Vulture in duel (duel only = 1 v 1).

THE LARGE PORT should be used only on a Heavy Ships (Promethus, Centaur, Ragnarok)
Heavy Ships = hard to move and dodge => GT + big Armor ship. way to go for a heavy ships.

Warthog-Valkyrie-Vulture
they all using N.mkIII

Best ships for duel (1 vs 1)

1) Warthog + GT (LP)
2) Valkyrie
3) Vulture

Best ships for group fight (Team)

1) Valkyrie
2) Vulture
3) Warthog + GT or missiles (LP)

The Warthog + GT is not better in a 1v1 PvP match vs a vult or a valk with neut3s. I haven't seen a fight with two pilots of equal skill where the hog won since before they added the weights.

yea i could whomp vults in a hog back in the day
but not anymore

Large port weapons need more power and accuracy for their weight

a valk vult or cent could still outdoge a heavier ship but the odd occasion the heavy ship lines up a shot it should be able to count for something serious

examples of heavy ships that could hold their own:
Crossbow in wing commander 2 SO2
- No afterburner
- Incredible armor
- turned like a pig
- 5 forward guns 4 ship seeking missles and 4 capital ship
killer torpedoes that made it the best fighter in the game

Heavy ships from Vendetta test 3.1
- could carry every class of weapon which made them a force to reckon with but the seeker AI sucked then so it didnt seem so great but now it'd be very dangerous

"The GT is probably 1 of the best weapon in game (YEA NO NEED SKILL TO SHOOT = AUTO TARGETTING) but it requier a Large port."

"The warthog + GT is already better than Valkyrie and Vulture in duel (duel only = 1 v 1)."

you're gravely mistaken. the AGT is the easist thing to avoid in vendetta, and was considured close to useless during the beta, and in the early stages of final. the reason it's being used now is because people are realizing the AGT isn't as useless as they originally thought. your only hope in a hog with a AGT is distence control. you can use the AGT at a distence but it isn't really effective.

also you need to keep in mind the AGT doesn't have godlike aiming. it has the same flaw as the very bots you shoot while barrelrolling to avoid fire.

"Best ships for duel (1 vs 1)

1) Warthog + GT (LP)
2) Valkyrie
3) Vulture"

correction:

1. Vulture (specificly the SVG varient)
2. the Axia bus
3. Valkyire Vengeance
4. IBG or Centurion Mk3
5. Warthog Mk3 or 'TD', specificly with a jackhammer, or plasma devistator.

I haven't seen the Centurion III or Centurion IBG in a duel in a looong time. It's pretty crippled by its mass right now. I hope they get that roll bug worked out soon cuz I want to use it again.

The top 10 ships I've seen used in duels and fights lately are:
1. Serco Vulture Guardian (with dual neuts)
2. Valkyrie Vengeance (usually with two or three neuts)
3. IDF Valkyrie (usually with two or three neuts)
4. Valkyrie Rune (with two or three neuts)
5. Vulture III/IV (with dual neuts)
6. Warthog III/IV (gt and some other missile weapon)
7. Corvus Vulture (with dual neuts) - this ship is gaining popularity
8. Ragnarok (with three geminis and two chaos swarms)
9. Hornet (with four geminis)
10. Prometheus (with two sunflares and one screamer)
11. Axia Bus (It's an excellent ship, but I've only seen Eldrad use it, so I'm ranking it lower, despite how well he uses the thing)

The Serco Vulture Guardian is probably the most frequent because it's the smallest, fastest ship the Serco have, so a great many Serco players use it. The three Valks are next because the Itani and UIT players have a choice of three ships to use and so split among them. The Vult III/IV are the next ships used because they're easily available to everyone who can't fly a Valk yet. After that, lots of Serco players use the hog with the gt to try and neutralize the Valk and Vult's maneuverability. And as I said, I like the Centurion a lot, but I have haven't seen any of its variants used in a duel since beta because it's slower, has less armor, and has less guns (except for the IBG) than the Vulture. After that, there are support ships (though usually used incorrectly) whose main purpose is to put lots of ordnance into space at once.

I've been using the gt pretty effectively in duels and in fights with long odds, but only because I try to bring the hog into ranges that no other player except the valk and vult pilots like to fight in (ie, under 100m) because the gt really shines at close range (and it's damn intimidating to someone who's not used to it). The gt at range is mediocre at best because of its inaccuracy (it has a large spread compared to any of the small weapons except for the flechette). The problem is that under 100m, the hog's lack of maneuverability is very evident and a talented light fighter pilot can easily out maneuver me, and the fact that they can mount more small weapons (like neuts and positrons) than I can gts (ie, more than one), that means that for every hit they score on me with their multiple cannons, I have to hit more than twice that number with the agt. I'm just lucky that I haven't fought very many talented valk players (with several notable exceptions).

To address starfisher's comments, I don't WANT someone to just LET me win - quite the opposite, I want to WORK for my win - but if I'm going to work hard to defeat you, it's frustrating that when I'm just about to defeat someone, they just turn tail and run at speeds faster than I can catch up. I want them to fight to the death. It's not fair that I fight to the death, but no one else does. If they don't fight to the death, then what's the point of PvP? I'd might as well just mock dogfight a guildmate so that we don't damage each other at all, because the outcome is the same - I don't get the kill, and at least I don't die in the process. And I said that I'm trying to OVERCOME the hog's current weaknesses against ships that have far less significant weaknesses because it feeds my ego and I get to gloat a bit. Sure, I could go get my Itani standing up and buy myself a Valk, but what's the fun in that? The devs'd might as well throw out all the ships except for the Valk so we could all fight on equal footing.

"It's not fair that I fight to the death, but no one else does."
Time for you to adapt :P People aren't going to stick around and die if they feel that they are outclassed. I tend to fight to the death because I always think I can beat the other person if I try a little harder, and I end up losing concentration for the split second it takes to get brushed by the killing neut or gt bolt. Other people with less confidence/stupidity might realize that they're going to lose and retreat for tactical reasons. I'm sorry you can't get kills in a crappy ship, but if you take me down to the red and I haven't scored any hits, I'm going to run because I'm either outclassed or you ambushed me. That's the way the game works.

The next patch is supposed to be rebalance. There's no need for throwing out every ship except the Valk. What I'm saying is that instead of railing against the universe because people are acting in an eminently sensible manner given the rules of the game, perhaps you should adapt yourself and start flying a SGV. Then you'd get your kills, or at least have a much better chance of it.

To put it in perspective, if I decided to fly a stock centurion with an ion blaster and couldn't kill anyone, you'd call me an idiot for trying to PvP in such a ship. While the hog/gt/sunflare combo USED to be good, it isn't RIGHT NOW, so sensible piloting demands that you either switch ships or stop getting pissed when people outmanuever you or run away.

You can make all the threads you like about how things are unbalanced, and I'll back you up. But lets not knock other players for doing what makes sense, eh?

For the record I wasn't there for this fight, so I'm not defending my ego or honor or whatever. I have a logical grievance with his venting :P

Hello CP,

First off : you are right that there is a problem that it is TOO EASY TO RUN AWAY. But that belongs in another thread (surprised nobody has made a big fuss about it yet....)

I admire your fight to the death stance. I am one of the players in Sedinia B8 that night, though I don't think I fought with you for any long periods of time (since I am a n00b and I get creamed by hog-GT's, not being one of the notable exceptions), and I try to take on vults instead.

But in a sense, starfisher is right that people don't fight to the death all the time. I don't, unless it is 1 vs 1 then I usually do. I don't mind dying, but the bit is that we were fighting in Sedinia B8, and it is an annoying long walk back to the fight from Itani space.

Also about being outnumbered, I've noticed lately (atl east when I am on), that the Itani are more organized. There were 4-5 of us in B8 that night, and the most I've seen Serco threw up was 3, and you guys came in piecemeal, one by one. The result is a slaughter, and many times I don't even join in the "group hug", but just hover around watching the fight. I wished Serco can organized large wings like the Itani did and come in together so we can have one big furball. It is no fun playing 5 vs 1 (unless you are Amarus then I'll slap ya! :))

So, take it easy. When you are outnumbered, go gather some serco friends and we can have a nice big fight. Also, there is no dishonour in running : like Patton said "I don't want to see you die for your country, i want you to make those enemy SOB die for their country".

have fun :)

Well I think there's one aspect that we've completely forgotten. What level do you get the Warthog? What level do you get the Valk? How much difference in work is very often forgotten because it takes hardly anytime (well in my perspective) to get either ship. So the fact that CrippledPidgeon's ship was too slow seems about right to me. Then again if CP doesn't want to fly a Valk or a Vult (it seems like that's the only options he has) then i'd say beef up the Hog. I don't like this idea though. I think we just plain need more ships in this game. More HIGH level ships so that CP can actually use a GT on a ship that could maybe finish off a ship as it's flying away from him. Then again the devs are working on rebalancing so who knows if the GT will be more powerful/less powerful or that the S weapons will be less powerful/more powerful. So I say we wait till the next patch and read Celebrim's inevitable post afterward before we say all the ships should be balanced.....

/givemoney Devs 2c

As to my earlier post--

I just wrote the last line "For the record..." first, and then an hour later decided it wasn't relevant enough so I added in the rest. However, I was a bit rushed and unable to read prior posts, so I apologize for its not-good-ness.

I think KixKizzle and Starfisher bring up excellent points. On most days I try to fight with honor (but yes, there are some days where I'll do anything to get a serco kill), and to me, this means that if I ask to duel someone, I'm not going to run. If I just see a random serco at a wormhole, and I'm flying around in my valk, I'll either engage them or not. In this case, I'd rather not fly all the way from sedina to Jallik and back if I die, so I'm probably going to run (especially if I decide not to engage them and they come up behind me, taking away half my health).

To me, CP, it sounds like you might fly up behind someone who's mining, or trading, or something and start shooting them, then complain when they run. Yes, that is an extreme example, but it seems to be what you're saying.

People should not be obligated to die if they get ambushed by one who is much better than them.

And like KixKizzle said, the warthog is a worse ship. What would be the point in spending days botting and doing nothing else if I can get easily killed by a warthog? If the hog is made better, than there doesn't seem like there'd be much of a point in getting another ship. If you have a problem with the hog's stats, be like one of the other many serco who piss off us itani by botting in our space to get a valk. Those with valks worked for the advantage, and I don't see why we should lose it because somebody chooses not to dedicate the same time.

For being outnumbered - I actually don't mind too much. The battle in B8 was a heck of a lot of fun, and I feel that I made a good showing of myself, considering the odds that I was facing.

And I DO have the levels to get ships like the Prometheus or if I had the standing, the Valkyrie. In fact, I have TWO characters that I've worked hard to get to the same level - I have a Serco character to fly the Prometheus, and I took an Itani character because I wanted to try out the Valkyrie. So yes, I have put in the hours necessary to fly the high level ships.

But everyone and his brother flies the Valkyrie! If I grabbed a valk myself "to even the odds," then where's the fun in that? There's no variation! Just valk after valk. Vult after vult. THAT'S what I meant when I said, "The devs might as well throw out all the ships except for the Valk so we could all fight on equal footing."

I find it exciting to take ships that no one use, load up weapons that no one use, and try to figure out how to take out the ships that are "accepted" as the best. It makes combat fun and challenging. Fighting the uphill battle is the most difficult, but if you're successful, it's far more satisfying. So THAT'S why I like to use the "underdog" ships. The battle is that much more difficult for me, but if I win and kill you, that kill means that much more to me.

But if my target can simply turn and run away whenever he or she chooses, then I feel that the effort that I put into winning was for nothing. How would you like it if say you were competing in a basketball tournament (or a tournament of your choice). You were playing with the most handicaps, but you knew that if you played at your top form, you could win, and take home a terrific prize - something that you've always wanted. And then in your last game, just before you're going to score the winning point, the tournament host comes up and says "Okay everyone, thanks a lot for participating. See you all next year!" Wouldn't YOU be disappointed? Wouldn't you be frustrated that despite all your best efforts to overcome your weaknesses, someone just comes along and steals your prize that you rightfully won?

Okay, so I don't pour my heart and soul into fighting quite to that degree, but I put a lot of work into fighting my battles, and not being able to complete the job is frustrating. Not being able to complete the job time after time after time for the same reason annoys the heck out of me! I mean, let's face it! This is a game! Games are supposed to be fun! I'm sure that you guys are having fun killing me, but it sure as heck ain't fun when I have to watch the people I nearly kill run away from me!

And for the record, there were several Serco there fighting as well, and we were trying to get a larger group of players together, but by the time we got 6 Serco together to fight the 6 Itani and UIT, nearly all of the combatants had left! So what happens? The one Itani and one UIT player who would come back, would just end up running away!