Most of the complaints I hear can all be answered with: "Stop comparing a beta test to a fully developed and released game."
I saw similar complaints in the WARIII beta. People were like: "OMG This game is so buggy!!" God forbid! Bugs? In a beta test?!?!?! GHASP!

The content will be added at release. They're not going to put content into a beta. What would be the point of that? The point of the beta is to test the game's framework.

I am sure you do the best job that you can, Mr. Moderator, but I disagree with you in one respect: some long-time testers are more than a little frustated with us newcomers--they are downright angry. Indeed, Starfisher has acknowledged this and has defended the practice of flaming, yet I saw no rebuke for it. Neither did you respond to genka's "so all of you 'omg not enough content' fear-mongering newbies can shut it" comment. This thread is as much about the community as game content. It seems like many in the community are intent on driving newcomers away.

n00b's comment was pretty tongue-in-cheek. Don't take anything you hear too seriously.

While I continue to assert that I am more sensitive to flames than the average user, it would appear that I am not more sensitive than you are, Rascal. I wouldn't have classified the post you referenced as a flame, though I suppose it could be seen as bait if one were to miss the humor in it. I suppose we could go all Disney with the website, but I think that would be an overreaction. Sorry you disagree.

Obviously, we do not want to turn this forum into the Disney channel. I do not hold the Forum Moderator responsible for anything that is said here. Although I might feel a sense of personal satisfaction if the Forum Moderator took my side in the issue, I am aware that he cannot do so. Indeed, the free speech advocate in me would be dismayed if he started deleting posts and locking threads. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the individual poster to be civil.

I know that not everyone here is a professional writer who can express their thoughts clearly. Perhaps it is just me, but I have completely missed the humor in genka's posts. Still, whether his posts are meant to be funny or not, humor can be used in a hostile way. I will have to await genka's response to decide how to view his posts.

Where did I defend the process of flaming? What are you talking about?

I said you probably misunderstood a post. I asked for an example so I could evaluate it myself and form an opinion. How is that defending the process of flaming?

To be honest you seem to be taking everything not posted in a completely bland and neutral tone to be an attack. It's not. This community has a long history of joking ribs and sarcasm. In fact, if you continue the pattern you set in this thread, you will take this as a flame.

IT'S NOT. Yeah, I'm mad that I have to watch people log in, whine about E&B being gone then saying Vendetta is boring or sucks because it doesn't have feature XYZ of E&B. It happened constantly for a week. I'm proud to say that I only once actually said anything that could be remotely construed as hostile - and even that was me saying "Don't give up so easy."

Genka, like me, has just had enough of constantly seeing people post the same thing over and over and over again, and seeing the ingame chat spammed with the same thing over and over and over again. We KNOW that all you E&Bers loved your universe. Vendetta is not it. Please stop trying to turn it into E&B and join us in trying to make VENDETTA succeed as its own game.

But Starfisher, you don't understand! E&B had some great features. And by transplanting them into Vendetta, we can turn Vendetta into a great game. Don't you care about making Vendetta as good as it can be?

What are you a "fanboi?"

-I just thought I'd post it now to save the ENBers some typing trouble. You knew it was coming. . .

Jeeze, sorry.
D:

My first post in this thread was meant to be a rather badly thought out expression of my stance against posting large, potentially killer, ideas which there simply isn't any time or need to implement prior to launch.
I didn't mean for it to be taken personally by anyone at all, and I'm sorry if you feel I'm singling out any one person, or any group of people. The use of exaggerated examples may also have been a mistake.

The second post was going to be an example of the powers of the engine and the developers. Unfortunately it turned out rather frivolous and confusing.

;P

Well then I'll respond now:

Before posting something you would like to see, think about Guild's situation, think about the state of the game and think about what needs improvement. If one more person says "I want to land on planets" or "I want to walk around the station" I'm going to explode.

People, look at Phaserlight's Station Interface idea for an example of a good suggestion post. He takes a problem with the game and suggests a simple, doable before release fix. It's not a demand, it's a suggestion. It's not an ultimatum, and it would be a distinctly Venetta solution to the problem.

Then think about Vendetta as a game. What would walking around a station add? At all? Guild would have to add months and months of content to make walking around mean anything. Can they do that now? No. So what can they do instead to make the game more immersive? It's ok to borrow from other games - there usually is a best way to do something and there's no shame in using that solution even if someone else thought it up. HOWEVER - Post it politely and as a suggestion, not a demand or a "your game will die unless".

If you don't want to get flamed you have to post things in a well thought out, intelligent manner. People will respond in kind. Otherwise, you get what you put in - crap.

Starfisher, you stated:

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We flame because:
a) That is a totally unreasonable demand. You can't reinvent the gameplay two weeks before release.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

By 'we' I assume that you are also referring to yourself as well. This argument implies that it is acceptable to flame anyone you view as being 'unreasonable.' Are you now saying that your flames are indefensible?

What is really amazing to me is that you complain about people who mention the lack of content in the game, and yet in the same post you state:

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, the game lacks content.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

So is it okay for you to discuss the lack of content, but not for others? It really does appear that no one wants to listen to the new player's opinions.

"Overreaction" seems to be the euphemism around here for the drubbing that new players receive. It is possible I may be overreacting to your posts, but perhaps you are overreacting to mine as well. You have stated on numerous occasions that you are angry.

I don't know why you assume I want to turn Vendetta into EnB. I said no such thing. Frankly, it would be impossible for just four developers to make such a change. It would take them more than ten years. All I said was that content is lacking, and everyone, including yourself, agrees with me on that.

Thanks for the clarification, genka. I guessed this might be the case. It can be difficult at times to express oneself clearly with written words.

<All I said was that content is lacking, and everyone, including yourself, agrees with me on that.>

There have been a lot of people (and I mean a LOT) in general chat and some on the forums who have said things to the effect of: "This game sucks it has no content it's so boring. It'll never succeed blah blah."

That's not discussion. That's a rant. And it adds nothing and benefits noone. The devs have said the game lacks content. That's because it's a test. The content doesn't come in until later.

It goes back to what I first said: "Most of the complaints I hear can all be answered with: "Stop comparing a beta test to a fully developed and released game.""

<By 'we' I assume that you are also referring to yourself as well. This argument implies that it is acceptable to flame anyone you view as being 'unreasonable.'>
-Now you're getting it!

OK to summarise, Although the vets obviously love this game, and everyone at least agrees it has got potential. start looking at the facts. Over 5000 keys sent out and yet the universe has never no more than a hundred or so players and its not even rotated (always the same players). This points to the fact that PVP has a very small hardcore circle of fans. Yes the ex EnB'ers are going to make suggestions to add content that was in their game and yes it would certainly make this game more fun. to fly around shooting bots all day is no better than playing space invaders after a couple of hours. and trade is just like hard work. If you could at least build things out of the resources you collect from bots it might make you feel like you are achieving something. But the only goal i can see so far is leveling as quick as possible.

I understand that the missions are just place holders, but lets face it, its still only gonna be a matter of a to b until fresh angles are added into the game. And im sorry but i cant get exited over cargo meaning mass or having a repair function we can shoot at friends.

As a pure solo player, neither of those functions benefit me. I find it hard work to bring myself to even log in at the moment. Perhaps i will try again next patch.

Again this is in no way a flame, just a pure honest observation

We're horrendously off topic here, but at least it's all civil, so what the hell. A few things:

Those 5700 keys? Many of the people who signed up are likely to have given false or seldom-used email addresses, or the email from guild ended up in people's spam files. That still doesn't make up for the fact that we get 150-ish at peak, but it's worth noting.

I would like to hear more play-testing / bug hunting observations from new people, particularly salient points about the interface which, I admit, I've gotten so used to I barely think about it anymore. It's very valuable to have a new user who is committed to the beta-tester role. What I see quite often is more comments of a "shopping" nature: "this sucks", "I wouldn't pay for this", etc. I believe that many of these folks have no intention of helping out - they just want to play a retail-quality game for free. Those people I wish would just wait for the free-trial version later.

hmm then why bother with a suggestions forum at all. Also I have submitted bugs and exploits for the game, and it is a well known fact that a high percentage of people use beta testing as a way to find there new home in a game. After all you wouldnt buy a brand new car without either test driving it or knowing something about it. There are a lot of horrendous games out there that you have to buy before you can play them and find out how bad they are so your correct to a degree, i certainly dont sign up for a game unless i have had the opportunity to try it.

Well spoken, Dan.

Once again, Mr. Moderator, with all due respect, I disagree with you. We have not wandered very far off topic. Dan's original post commented on the fact that many new players get slammed when they make suggestions or criticisms. This has led to the perception among new players that the game is resistant to change and that the community does not welcome them or their ideas. The community is very important for a MMORPG. Of the dozen or so close friends I brought with me from EnB, none are currently playing the game, and neither do they plan to purchase the retail version. Eve has had no problem retaining most of its EnB refugees.

Like Dan, I have to force myself to log in at times, because it seems like there is so little to do. The only reason I have stuck with it this long is because I am considering writing a review of the game.

"Stop comparing a beta test to a fully developed and released game."

There is no resistance to change. The only suggestions that have ever gotten anything close to a flame were things presented as ultimatums and requests to revamp the entire engine or flight model. You're blowing this way out of proportion.

I have to agree with Magus. People get slammed when they make unreasonable demands. That's what I was trying to get at in my previous post - think about what you're going to post and then post it in a reasonable manner. Much of the time this hasn't happened.

This goes both ways, Rascal. We vets are used to flaming each other for bad/unreasonable ideas. And by "flaming" I mean sarcastic comments or straight out "This is dumb".

But then the newbs came on board and started saying things like "I want to get out of my ship and walk around the station and the game will fail if I can't". They posted, as FM said, with the tone that they had expected to get to basically demo a retail product for free, and were shocked that their favorite features from another game weren't there. Some vets overreacted.

--

Actually, having just gone back and read the past ten pages of the suggestions forum, I haven't found any flames. What I have found is almost constantly this:

Newb: I want xxxyyyzzz
Vet: We've been asking for that for a while and it won't happen because aaabbbccc.
Newb: Oh.
Vet: Yeah...

Vets aren't flaming when they say that - they're telling people the reality of the game situation. The closest thing to a flame I can find is sarcasm when the suggestion is just off the wall...

Do you have a thread in particular you feel you got flamed in, Rascal?

We actually *are* off-topic, because this is the "Suggestions" forum. Danbetheroy, I wish you would read my previous post again, I think you misunderstood me or perceived some accusation directed at you.

I'm sorry that some people find the community to be hostile. I don't think that it generally is, though there are a few vocal individuals who need reeling in from time-to-time. I think that it is difficult to come into any large, pre-existing group as a newcomer. If I went alone to a bar full of "regulars" and sat down, I would be uncomfortable and could easily perceive hostility.

I wish that you (Rascal and Danbetheroy) would try to perceive the great things about this community. I've been lurking literally all day in-game and have seen very little unpleasantness - but a whole lot of people answering questions and sharing information.

Now here is a pot that needs stirring...

"Had I been present at the creation, I would have given some useful hints for the better ordering of the universe ."
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JOHN MORLEY

"Comedy is allied to justice ."
ARISTOPHENES

"You do ill if you praise, but worse if you censure, what you do not understand ."
-LEONARDO DA VINCI

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