[edit]Whatever I was responding to here is gone. So I'll remove what I said, since it's causing so many problems.[/edit]

Take it out. The fact that people are arguing to keep it in shows how much it's being exploited. You don't want to fight.. but this game is being sold on its PvP. So let's keep one of the major anti-PvP factors in the game! Best decision ever.

:P

"The fact that people are arguing to keep it in shows how much it's being exploited"

How is it being exploited if it's there to see who is in the sector, and thats what were doing, seeing whos hostle in the sector...

=)

spellcast even in monitored sectors I can still not avoid a fight completely. Since I will be sure that some crazy pirate will still go and try to hunt traders in there. It happened during the deathmatch era, so I am sure that it willl happen att hat time.

And the weapons that the traders have with them are still no match agaisnt any real pirateship. So you can at least give them the advantage of the retreat and the fast checkup.

Anyway I will see what comes, and if I dont like the content, then the chance of me staying will be slim. Considering I will stay mostly in the game for its singleplayer content (non pvp) and to help newbies. For the rest, you can take your fps style and blow each other up in unreal tournament 2004 or in the dueling arena or during special events aka wars...

"Adds an element of surprise?! What the hell? You know they are there. No more suprise."

Starfisher: I believe that if you re-read Tilt's post you will see that he is saying that he understands that _removing_ the feature adds an element of suprise. Also, nothing is being "exploited" in terms of the in-sector Player List. It appears that players are using it exactly as it was intended to be used.

Take it out.

renegade; while you are correct that the occasional random suicidal pirate might decide to jump you in monitored space, having the "u" list isnt going to significantly help you. If you are always in monitored space, and all of a sudden you see a red dot on your radar, you will know that it is time to run.

BTW I am hardly a FPS style player. After the skills came out i was the first one to level 11 trade, I spend far more time trading than i do fighting, and while i agree that players who want to avoid combat should have options to minimize the chance of it, (i used to be an advocate of completely safe areas at the center of each nations space) Some danger should exist to make the game more interesting.

Yeah. What Spellcast said. The fact that you know someone else is in the sector will get you to run for the nearest exit, even if they're not within radar range. It's a guaranteed way of escaping danger, because the target in question won't even get close enough to know what direction you're heading as you jump.

I don't like the idea of having the names pop up within 3000m radius either. So many people have requested cloaking devices for ships or the ability to ambush other players. Well there's your chance right there! If the sector player list is gone, you'll get that chance. It adds a whole new element to gameplay.

The bottom line is anyone who wants to play the game with PvP combat in mind should at least be given the chance to sneak up on other players and get SOME chance of finding out what sector their target is escaping to. Otherwise it would be impossible to chase anyone down in Vendetta, or I dare even say endanger PvP combat altogether.

I hope to see the day when I'm able to enter a sector and actually find someone in this huge universe and not have them disappear off that sector player list window seconds after I enter a sector. Maybe increased player count from stress testing will solve it. Maybe not. Either way I just don't think the sector player list window helps the situation one bit.

[quote]Starfisher: "*TAKE IT OUT*. The fact that people are arguing to keep it in shows how much it's being exploited. You don't want to fight.. but this game is being sold on its PvP. So *LET"S KEEP ONE OF THE MAJOR ANTI-PvP FACTORS IN THE GAME!* *BEST DESCISION EVER*"[/quote]

What are you trying to say here Starfisher? On one hand, you say take the feature out, then you say keep it in. Make up your mind. Are you trying to be ironic (read sarcastic) here?

You really seem to have lost your grasp of reality my friend. People are argung/discussing this topic (for and against) because that is the point of the thread. An exchange of ideas. One person wants a feature removed and others would like it to stay. Regarding the Sector Player List, no one is exploiting a thing. That feature is being used *EXACTLY* as it was intended. By definition, this is *NOT* an exploit. And hey, news flash... Vendetta is being sold as a Massively Multiplayer Online *ROLE PLAYING GAME* with PvP capabilities. Sounds to me like the ones complaining about this feature are the ones who will be the pirate/griefers when the game goes gold.

You want Space Quake? Buy a copy of Descent 3 on ebay and I'll see you in the mines. My handle is {OSS}Paedric. I can normally be found on Road Kill's server playing Subway Dancer. I'm usually one of the top 3 pilots in any given round there.

Space Quake is dead. QED keep the player list in.

Arolte...

whoever stated that that special cloakingdevice doesnt let you be removed as a player from that list?

I stated to keep the list in it, not that people can not find a way as to not get a way to not show up on the list. Maybe the most expesnive ship has an option to cloak for 10 mins so you can cruise around i na sector without showing up. But this needs to come in after a serious level and will only be accessible for pirates or for non weaponusing scoutingships...

And you can probably not use that thing in a normal homesector/newbiesector with the exception of it being a special mission that involves soemthing shady in the oponents home.

Like I said, dont take things out, as long as it is in keep it in and make features to put on ships so they will be removed or ...

Especially considering it is an rpg and not an fps, that would be the easiest way to do so.

Starfisher: reread my post, you misread "suspense" as "surprise." I think keeping the player list in adds an element of *suspense* not surprise.

In all honesty, however, I think both sides have valid arguments. This one might just be a matter of what kind of gameplay the devs want in the final version.

The heart of this debate seems to be whether or not PvP will be essential or consensual in the final version. If I'm a trader, will I always be able to run away from a PK'er or will there be instances where I'll be forced to turn and fight?

Right now, gameplay components seem to be drastically in favor of those who choose to run away. Consider the following features:

*Infiniboost with a fast charge battery
*Instant in-system warping
*Energyless in-system warping
*Player list that gives names of everyone in sector

Frankly, I'd have to say that as soon as one player decides to run away, any would be chaser doesn't stand a chance of catching them. Now as soon as the stress test rolls around I could be proven wrong, but I have a hunch that this is the way things will be. It won't take traders long to learn to warp around the corners of a system to avoid storms. Duelers will learn to run away when their health gets low to avoid getting PK'ed. Having instant warp and infiniboost has been nice for getting around the galaxy as a playtester, but I'd ask the devs to think long and hard about keeping these features in the final version. Here a just a few ideas that may help balance things for the final version:

A) Tweak energy drain on all engines, no infiniboost except for effecient engines.
B) Re-institute a short, 5-second warp countdown timer. Sitting still for 5 seconds is not laboriously long for traders, but it's an eternity in a dogfight situation. This would force the player to cover his bases by destroying the enemy or being well away before warping out.
C) Require a full battery for both wormhole jumps and in-system warps.
D) Remove the "Players in Sector" list.

Perhaps one or more of these would help tilt things a little back in favor of PvP. I still am not for removing the player list entirely, but I like Hoax's idea of having it only in monitered sectors. That makes a lot of sense, it's like the station's long range scanners are sharing their information with you. After all, if they can see everything that's going on in that sector, why shouldn't you? I would like to add to this idea by saying that you should only get the player list in monitored sectors of a faction that you have good standing with. An Itani wouldn't get the player list in a serco monitered sector, and vice versa.

FM - Post edited, as it seems I was either high and totally misread something, or whoever posted what I responded to edited their post. Phaser, same thing. Sorry if I misread you, but I don't even see anything remotely like what I was responding too up there.

Paedric: You HAVE to be kidding me... sarcasm can't be any clearer.

"All combat within the game is fully realtime, based entirely on "twitch" skill (no "virtual dice rolling"). Players may fight one another, fight NPCs, participate in groups, or potentially even engage in large-scale Guild combat." -- The description of the game.

The player list combined with the way warp works guarantees that combat will almost never occur unless both players are actively seeking each other out. This entirely eliminates the role of pirate from the game. How well will the game sell if you castrate a major part of online gameplay? Poorly. How well will this ROLEplaying game sell if you remove the most popular space game role? Poorly. Space quake is indeed dead, but the fact that weapons are the first thing in the station equipment list should clue you in on the fact that combat is supposed to happen quite regularly.

Sigh... I should have known better than to use the word "exploit". It does seem to get people riled up. What I meant was that players use the list to avoid combat and therefore nullify a major factor of the game. Even if the feature is being used as intended, it is killing the game. Remove it and you have to keep an eye on your radar when trading, and you can't run like a jackrabbit the instant you warp in and see a pirate in the sector.

Pirating was never profitable. The most infamous pirates have all said so in the past, and now it is simply impossible. Removing the player list is the first step in making suprise attacks even physically possible. Still not really viable, but at least there would be a chance. Traders might not like getting shot down but it IS part of the game. Or it's supposed to be, and the player list is one of the things keeping it out.

Starfisher, sarcasim has no place in a discussion when you want your ideas to be understood and taken seriously by people of many differing cultural backgrounds. Remember that for many people here, english is not their primary language. Irony/sarcasim will more than likely be lost on these people. You will only confuse them. And yes, I knew it was sarcasim.

The bits you left out:
[Quote] http://www.vendetta-online.com/h/help.html
Vendetta Online is an MMORPG (massively multiplayer online role-playing game) in development by Guild Software Inc. In this game, thousands of people will be able to play together, at the same time, in a single, persistent universe. Players take the form of spaceship pilots within this universe, flying to and fro between space stations and other locations in the galaxy.[/quote]

If you're going to quote something, keep it in context. Vendetta is (supposed to be) a role playing game first and foremost. The FPS PvP capabilities are supposed to be icing on the cake, not the be all and end all of the game.

Phaserlight, remember that most of us in game at the moment are of sufficiant level as to be able to purchase the Fast Charge battery. When the game hits the streets (in October it seems) and our accounts are all reset, this will not be such a factor.

I do not like the idea of a timer for intersector jumps or wormhole warps as we already have to make a 3000m run out to clear space before we *can* jump. Now add to that a timer? The odds would be tipped so far into the "pirate's" favor that lower level traders wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in Texas of surviving an encounter, Player List not with standing. Not to mention trying to get away from bot swarms in storms. I vote NO on this idea.

I can live with the Player List only being available in monitored space. That is a fair compromise and makes some sense.

Another thing to consider is that pirates and PK'ers tend to be much metally tougher (if you want to call it that) than traders and non-PK'ers. If anyone is going to give up and quit playing, it's going to be the trader who gets repeatedly "p0wnzored", not the PK'er who has trouble finding a kill. If anything I think it's better to err on the side of making it easy for those who don't want to fight, so in my humble opinion the devs are on the right track. I think the factors in favor of non-PK'ers need to be toned down a little, but this is just a matter of tweaking.

I also think that some people here may be overestimating how critical the player list is to ambushes. Be creative! If the first thing someone does when they see you in sector is run for the nearest exit, where's the smartest place to wait? Also, radar range is very short and you can close the distance from 3k to 0k very quickly. Just because someone knows you're in the sector doesn't mean they can't be ambushed.

And finally, the devs know where they're taking this game, we don't (exactly). Saying "omg! fix this or the game won't sell!" is like a passenger trying to tell the pilot how to land the plane.

I presumed a duel to hold place in an arena, and as soon as you left this arena or docked you would have forfaited the match/duel. Such an arena would be a couple of sectors designed solely for that purpose. We got all these sectors, just put some hollow roids, a circling asteroid belt and some shipwrecks throughout space and slap on it the name arena. Whenever you want to duel you need to group up and be unable to harm or be harmed by anybody else for that mather. But this special thing will only be able to be done inside such a duelingsystem.

And people will still be able to pk..., there will always be cases where you warp into a secto and didnt notice somebody coming or when you in fact want to fight for your cargo. Only when the cargo is superexpesnive or when you are superlow on cash, you will run... And you will give the people that really arent that interested in pks or pvp at least the chance to ge tout of it and immerse themselves into the story. Since that is exactly what I would expect from the game, a story and entertaining missions.

And not just a triggerhappy fragfest, like it seems to be the aim off all the people in favor of tossing the list out.

But we will see in october what the game will end into, it isnt that far away anymore...

cheers

Now I get it.

So my suggestion: Take out the in-sector player list, and add the radar range for different types of ships

Phaser: And where would the exit to the sector be? 3000km from the nearest large object. Which is anywhere. Haven't you noticed that there is literally NO piracy in the game anymore? Part of that is lack of players - the chances of running into someone are low. But when you do run into someone, it is literally impossible to catch them.

Paedric: Do you honestly believe that this game will stand on the strength of its trading system alone? Remove PvP and that's basically all you have. PvP isn't the icing, it's the flour and trading is the eggs. Or something. They are both essential factors in the game, and right now PvP is nonexistant due to things like the player list.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not suggesting that the player list is the root of all PvP problems and removing it will make the game perfect. The player list as it stands now is just one of a multitude of factors that make spontaneous PvP impossible.

First off, people, stop shouting "SPACE QUAKE!! SPACE QUAKE!!!" It isn't. At this point in development everyone knows this isn't true. If most of you had followed the interviews and read more about the final game, you'd know that combat will be a MAJOR portion of the game.

For those hoping to have a lovey dovey chatroom MMORPG game, you may be in for a disappointment. There will always be various career paths, but in the end you'll always have to learn how to defend yourself when the going gets tough, be it through gadgets or combat skills.

One thing many of you have to realize is that every career path you choose comes with responsibilities. If you want to be a pirate, learn how to chase someone down and fight them well. If you want to be a trader, practice evasive maneuvers and improve your navigational skills.

If you want to avoid combat altogether, improve your situational awareness skills. It's just something you're going to have to learn if you want to avoid death. Like any other trade, it's just one of the biggest skills you'll need to learn. Trust me, it's not that hard. You DON'T need the sector player list window.

Renegade, I still disagree. It should be the other way around. Advanced traders and non-combatants could maybe get an advanced scanner to scan for enemy players at greater radar ranges. But the sector players list is not necessary for this to be successful.

It's no different than going out and buying your own ship or plane in real life. Nobody is given the capability to see every single person in the sea or air within the entire hemisphere you're in. But you can still go out and buy upgrades to improve your radar range a little.

If you want to be immersed in a "potentially realistic" (for lack of a better term) environment, giving every player an all-seeing eye for general warning detection upon purchasing a stock ship would be a bad idea. Upgrades should be required to FIND others, not hide yourself from them.

In any case I think many of you are failing to see the flipside of the coin. Remember, if you can't see them, they can't see you. This could also serve as an advantage to traders as well. Staying on top of the market and buying all the latest radar enhancers could keep you on your toes, while pirates continue scanning for potential targets at a limited range in their fighters.

Yarr! I mean....Leave it in.

P.S. LONG LIVE SPACE QUAKE!!!!

arolte, like I said if it is going to be that kind of game then im out as simple as that.

But we will see in october.